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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Wood vs Plastic
Wood vs Plastic
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Tommy the Hat
283 posts
Sep 02, 2011
5:56 AM
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Do wood combs ever play like plastic? I assumed that a wood comb, after being sealed and sanded or what have you would be like a plastic comb as far as tightness. Then again, I have always been a big believer in "why buy something that is just like something else. Just get the original." If something is trying to be something else ....well...then...
Or is the sealing more for swelling than anything else? I ask because it seems the only problems I come across, even if they are slight, come from wood combs. I had issues with the MB and I recently got a Seydel soloist pro. The Soloist Pro is a nice harp; it's comfortable and sounds nice. Not as loud as my plastic combs but nice. All except the holes below 4. Those holes are a little "airy." They take much more work and are a little leaky. Very little but not clear and crisp like 4 and above. Not as loud either. My SP 20's, Harpmaster and Delta Frost, IMO play better and I never have a problem on those holes (same key harp....and key actually). Very tight and responsive. The Harpmaster and DF are very controlled. I find the response on my plastic combs very good. A light touch, which I seem to like. Not so on the Seydel on the lower holes. Even the Seydel Blues session with a plastic comb is better on the lower holes although overall I'd say the Soloist is nicer. Especially mouthfeel. But all and all I wasn't as impressed with both Seydels as i thought I would be by all the hype. I don't know how many times I've read that "once I tried a Soloist Pro, I never looked back." So far my mustache has got caught and pulled out a hair 3 times in the last 3 days on the Soloist. That's a first on any harp.
Is it just a wood vs plastic thing? Will wood ever be as tight and responsive...loud?
I'm just trying to figure this all out before I break the bank purchasing harps. I keep getting more and more expensive ones. I was going for a Seydel 1847 next but now am anticipating another disappointment and maybe I shouldn't waste the money. I'm still new to this anyway. I shouldn't say disappointment, they are really nice harps. Just not what I thought. I get more out of my supposedly lesser harps.
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Tommy
Bronx Mojo
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 5:57 AM
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Buzadero
859 posts
Sep 02, 2011
6:17 AM
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Let your conscience be your guide. You can cavalierly contribute to clear-cutting the rainforests. Or, you can allow yourself to be dependent on Big Oil and the plastics industry. It's your choice. Kill the planet on your own terms with your little selfish harmonica playing.
I'm advocating the revolutionary new terra-cotta combs for diatonics and adobe for chromatics. Made from free-range adobes at that. Very earthy tone.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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arzajac
621 posts
Sep 02, 2011
6:30 AM
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Both wood and plastic combs are vegan...
My experience is that while Out-Of-The-Box, plastic may often be more airtight, nothing is more airtight than a perfectly flat comb and reedplate. This can be achieved using plastic or wood. And I find it very very easy and effective to sand down a wood MB comb and draw reed plate. None of my plastic-combed harps play as well as a well-sanded wooden MB.
Sealing is for swelling. Sealing a perfectly sanded comb makes it less perfect. Nonetheless, the combs I sand and seal still play better than my plastic combs.
As for Loud and Responsive, the only thing that the comb can contribute to that is to be flat and therefore airtight. Beyond that it's reedwork such as embossing, reed profile and gap.
My opinion. I hope it is helpful.
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Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 6:30 AM
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KingoBad
886 posts
Sep 02, 2011
6:31 AM
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Ahem, wood was here first... The Original WAS a wood comb.. and yes it can be tighter and more responsive, it can also be worse.
There have been countless arguments on the benefits of both. Some people also like metal outdoor furniture. Some like Teak. They both have their pluses and minuses. Wood has a beauty and warmth, metal is practical, not as prone to natural flaws, etc.
Buy what harp comb works for you, just don't try to convince a purist on either side.
Brendan Power did a great comparison test and while many pros could tell the difference, it was almost negligible. Pick you comb for practicality or aesthetic, but don't be worried about making a bad choice other than a harp that is not suited to you.
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Danny
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barbequebob
1721 posts
Sep 02, 2011
7:11 AM
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On the comb issue, when the audience hears it, it is FAR different than when a musician hears it when they're PLAYING it. Wood and plastic can be harder to tell the difference, but I've found metal combs to have more of a significant difference thaneither of them, but the one thing you absolutely CANNOT rule out and is the single biggest wild card in everything is the person who is playing it?
Why? Playing technique is a HUGE factor that cannot be ruled out and anyone with bad technique will make anything sound crappy and someone will really good technique will minimize most of the differences because someone with good technqiue will be playing resonantly, meaning that their playing puts emphasis on the even numbered harmonic overtones (the ones that sound the most pleasing to the human ear, sounding, big, fat, warm and what we WANT to hear), and a player with bad technique will do the exact opposite.
The only comb material I absolutely din't care for at all was chrome plated brass because, first of all, especially with a chromatic, they weigh like a ton of bricks and, to my ears, they tend to put far too much emphasis on the highs and can be too bright for my taste, but remember, everyone's ears and taste is going to vary.
Again, just remember that a player with good technique will minimize any differnces wheras someone with bad techni=que brings them out in spades, plus anything they play is going to sound crappy regardless.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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nacoran
4548 posts
Sep 02, 2011
11:43 AM
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Buz, actually, you might be onto something... most ocarinas I've seen (at least the better ones) are some sort of glazed clay product. Of course, I stepped on one in the dark and it broke into a bunch of pieces...
Okay, the two difference I see between plastic and wood are the swelling issue, and the finishing touches.
I could be wrong, but I think the plastic combs are injection molded. Within reason that means they can control the shape however they want and it doesn't make much extra work. Wood combs however, if you are trying to make them quickly, you'd just use a saw to get the basic size and then use a router to make the slots. And that's the problem. If you use the router to smooth the ends of the tines and round the corners it takes more time. Plastic combs also tend to be recessed reed combs (although the Golden Melody is an exception). That covers the potential sharp front edge and corners of the reed plate. You can sand them down, and they could do that at the factory, but that takes time, so they don't seem to do it on some models.
Metal combs tend to come on more expensive harps, so they are more likely to be carefully finished.
I haven't tried Corian or Dymonwood yet. I had one acrylic comb but it cracked near the screw hole.
What I really want to try is an Alon comb. It's a transparent ceramic aluminum! Unfortunately, I priced it, and at least at the time, the cost of a block the right size for a comb would be a couple hundred bucks, and that's before getting it turned into a comb. Hmm, maybe I could afford to get one made for one of my Hohner Pucks?
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Nate
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Fingers
82 posts
Sep 02, 2011
1:02 PM
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It may be just me but i always think of plastic combs as toy like!! i may just be a traditionalist!!
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selkentblues
52 posts
Sep 02, 2011
2:25 PM
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Ive said this on another thread, but it bears repeating.
I find it AMAZING that some people say there is NO difference!
There is CLEARLY a massive difference in tone between wood and plastic.
Plastic is more precise, sharper, cleaner, but lacks the character of wood.
Wood reverberates more, shimmers and resonates, and has that "real" harp feel and tone.
I don't care what anybody says...those old blues guys would NOT have sounded the same, if they had played a Special 20.
I love my Marine Bands and the new Seydel, even the much-disliked Blues Harp, I like for its wooden-comb tone, but if I had a gun held to my head...
I'd take the plastic-combed Suzuki Harpmaster every time.
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SELKENTBLUES
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Tommy the Hat
288 posts
Sep 02, 2011
2:36 PM
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I'm trying hard not to say this because I'm starting to annoy even myself. I'm starting to sound like a broken record. But I really like my Delta Frost and Harpmaster. And I have to say that my special 20's, every one of them, seem like they are reading my mind they play so easy. Those reeds sound when I just look at them!
But like anything else, time changes many things. next year or 5 years from now I may be totally in another direction in taste. I accept that. Such is life. I'm just enjoying the ride.
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Tommy
Bronx Mojo
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selkentblues
53 posts
Sep 02, 2011
3:41 PM
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Yeh, Ive grown to love the SP20...
Mainly through playing the Harpmaster and learning to appreciate the larger hole and get my embrochure right for it.
Your right about them "playing themselves" though.
Thats what I found at first...they are almost TOO easy, and I didn't like them for it.
I want to fight to get my tone.
by the way...
I am LOVING this Seydel Blues Ive just bought!
Can't stop playing it!
VERY responsive and it SSHHHIIMMMEEERRRSSS...lol
It's my new number one now I reckon.
I'm even thinking about getting all the other keys in it now I am so impressed.
I must stop buying harps!
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SELKENTBLUES
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barbequebob
1724 posts
Sep 03, 2011
9:09 AM
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Plastuc combs are injection molded and they're not toally fool proof, as I've seen bad comb molds that were not flat at all. In extreme heat, they can warp because the heat melts ther plastic and they can crack under extreme cold conditions. I've also seen combs that had blster bubbles on them and if you drop them, it can crack.
In another forum, a player had the extremely DUMB idea of boiling the harp, misguided in his thinking that that only applies to wood combs, but he found out the hard way that boiling them warps the comb badly, returning it back to the petroleum based liquid it once was, permananently ruining it.
One thing you have to remember about the Seydels, tm MB/Sp20's as well as tyhe MS series is that they are NOT tuned to ET tuning and it's easy to think the comb makes that difference in sound, and because the models I mentioned today are tuned to a comprimise tuning rather than ET, that's a HUGE difference alone.
With the MB/Sp20's, until 1985, they were tuned to 7 limit just intonation, and then from 1985 to 1992, they were tuned to 19 limit just intonation and if you need to hear the difference between equal temperament tuning and the two just intonations, go to http://www.patmissin.com. and he has a page with sound files using a key of C diatonic tuned each of those ways with both single notes and chords and you will truly hear that the differences is really not so much the comb, but the reed material and the tuning.
Again, you cannot rule out playing technique at all here.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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barbequebob
1725 posts
Sep 03, 2011
9:09 AM
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Plastuc combs are injection molded and they're not toally fool proof, as I've seen bad comb molds that were not flat at all. In extreme heat, they can warp because the heat melts ther plastic and they can crack under extreme cold conditions. I've also seen combs that had blster bubbles on them and if you drop them, it can crack.
In another forum, a player had the extremely DUMB idea of boiling the harp, misguided in his thinking that that only applies to wood combs, but he found out the hard way that boiling them warps the comb badly, returning it back to the petroleum based liquid it once was, permananently ruining it.
One thing you have to remember about the Seydels, tm MB/Sp20's as well as tyhe MS series is that they are NOT tuned to ET tuning and it's easy to think the comb makes that difference in sound, and because the models I mentioned today are tuned to a comprimise tuning rather than ET, that's a HUGE difference alone.
With the MB/Sp20's, until 1985, they were tuned to 7 limit just intonation, and then from 1985 to 1992, they were tuned to 19 limit just intonation and if you need to hear the difference between equal temperament tuning and the two just intonations, go to http://www.patmissin.com. and he has a page with sound files using a key of C diatonic tuned each of those ways with both single notes and chords and you will truly hear that the differences is really not so much the comb, but the reed material and the tuning.
Again, you cannot rule out playing technique at all here.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jbone
635 posts
Sep 03, 2011
12:14 PM
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nobody so far has mentioned the sort of hybrid wood/composite material used in suzuki's manji. this is one of my all time favorite harps based on tone, available volume, and durability. the rap from suzuki is that this material has the features of wood with the pluses of no warping or moisture issues, which i have found to e true. perhaps a true wood comb is a warmer sound. i have not bought a marine band for at least 15 years. i am still not over the mass produced quality issues hohner sold us for years.
i do have some hering 1923 vintage, which are wood combs. nice harp but my issue with both mb and '23 is pretty much the same and not to do with the comb. it's the reeds. suzuki imho has taken over the quality end of the market with their advances in reed and plate technology. i think you could fit a set of manji plates on a comb made of marshmallow and get a good solid tone and volume out of it.
the comb material does have a bearing on a harp's sound but i believe that the reeds and plates, and how they seal to whatever comb is used, make the real difference.
i've only tried several dozen makes and models over 35+ years though. admittedly i have much yet to learn.
and as usual Bob nails it again. operator competency is the #1 factor in how a harp will actually sound.
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hvyj
1742 posts
Sep 03, 2011
2:40 PM
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IMHO, composite combs are superior to plastic or wood. Composite is more wood-like than plastic-like in feel and texture, but is so far superior to wood, i don't understand why anyone buys aftermarket wood combs when composite (dymondwood) combs are available.
Put a custom composite comb on an OOB Golden Melody and the improvement in playability, compression and response is DRAMATIC. Sp 20s don't have a cover groove on the reedplates like GMs do and so may not adapt as well to a replacement composite comb.
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sergiojl
32 posts
Sep 03, 2011
3:03 PM
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I absolutely love composite woods, for me a ootb marine band is the most uncomfortable thing I've tried. Only changing the comb it goes from nightmare to a beautiful dream.
Both, manji's and crossover's have a real good combs. I am very impressed by manji's design and the crossover bamboo comb is a great improvement.
I want to try to use a sandwich comb with sp20's components, I think that can give that extra punch this harmonica needs, a perfect combo between good plates, good cover and a good comb.
In my opinion recessed comb harmonicas sound dull, may be to sandwich them is the answer. May be one of these days I will buy a floridatrader new metal comb for sp20. It looks very nice.
We cannot forget that a new plates for crossover are by far more expensive than sp20's plates, and sp20's covers are really good for cupping.
I really want sp20 to be my first harmonica, I have to take care of my money, but not until I can change the way it sound.
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2011 3:09 PM
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Bart Leczycki
48 posts
Sep 03, 2011
3:52 PM
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Hi,
I'd like to say something unpopular :o)
The different between ABS plastic and wood comb is VERY small. Let's try to make a blind test with both materials.
I made tests with Seydel 1847 in key of C, plastic, wood and metal combs. I could hear the different in studio, but if you play by mic, cabel, effect, amp (and sometimes you sent sound by vocal mike to front speakers) you CAN'T hear the material of the comb, I'm sure! It's something like placebo :o)
Probably player will have subjective feelings, but listener on the gig can't hear difference. Please check Pat Missin web page! In my opinion profile of covers changes the sound and freq much more than comb material.
BTW the sound is IN the musician, so if you give Marine Band Crossover to Brendan Power, he will sound like Brendan, not like Marine Band or Harp Master :o)
This is a point in my opinion.
So I think we should to concentrate on OUR sound, not on comb material :o)
Best regards
==============================
www.myspace.com/bleczycki
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Todd Parrott
673 posts
Sep 03, 2011
4:18 PM
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Well said, Bart. This has been my observation as well, and I've played just about every comb material you can think of.
The FLATNESS of a comb does make a difference in playability though. This is why a GM plays better on a custom comb, as long as it is made well and is flat.
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groyster1
1356 posts
Sep 03, 2011
6:02 PM
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@Todd
I tried a hetrick comb replacement on a sp20 made it much more attractive but actually played better with the plastic comb no more!!!
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garry
110 posts
Sep 03, 2011
6:33 PM
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@bart: a test like that was done at the SPAH some years back, and the conclusion was that listeners couldn't tell the difference. i believe the jury's still out on whether the player can, but it's much harder to design an blind or double blind experiment to test that. there was some talk about doing such a thing at SPAH a year or two ago, but i don't recall whether it happened or what it concluded if it did happen.
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KingoBad
893 posts
Sep 03, 2011
9:05 PM
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Kenny Rogers once said: "It's the WOOD that makes it GOOD."
Need I say any more?
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Danny
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nacoran
4556 posts
Sep 04, 2011
12:12 AM
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I suspect BBQ hit the nail on the head. Equal, Just or Compromise Tuning makes a huge difference in the sound. The cover shape seems to my ears to be the next biggest contributor, open or closed backs, air-tightness. I've swapped wood and aluminum combs off of a harp and couldn't hear a difference (although I sure can feel the difference on my lips.) I've also swapped open covers, closed covers and plastic covers on a SP20 and it made a huge difference in the sound.
Now, with swelling issues, wood can certainly have some problems with air-tightness.
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Nate
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