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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
OT: Blues & Regional Differences
OT: Blues & Regional Differences
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5F6H
1129 posts
Apr 03, 2012
6:51 AM
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I wouldn't hold too much...or indeed ANY store by these categorisations.
They generally reflect where the cuts were recorded/the artists predominantly work/worked (if their is a blues "scene" somewhere, then artists tend to migrate to it), rather than where the artist was born, or necessarily an identifiable musical style.
"Delta & Chicago are easy ones I guess, but what about the rest?" Are they? Muddy was born in the delta, played the same songs in Chicago amplified....then acoustic again...then amplified again...when he was in Chicago, he was in Chicago, when he was in the delta, he was in the delta, but he was always Muddy...even when he was in neither. Many artists who were born & spent their formative years in the Delta/South recorded in Chicago in the 50's & 60's...it's where the opportunities were, Chess often bought artists from other regional labels, like Sun, too.
Rod Piazza is West Coast blues because that's where he lives. There has been an identifiable sub-group of West Coast Harp blues, which includes Piazza, Bill Clarke, Harman (from Alabama), Gary Smith, Rick Estrin, Mark Hummel, Mitch Kashmar often incorporating a degree of swing & jump blues, but also heavily influenced by 50's Chess recordings and of course George Smith...who was from Arkansas, but raised in Illinois, working around Chicago in the mid 50's to mid 60's, before relocating to the West Coast...
Confused? You will be as long as you try and make everything fit arbitrary compartments & designations...;-)
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tmf714
1071 posts
Apr 03, 2012
7:19 AM
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There is a distinct and profound sound to all the above mentioned sub genres-has nothing to do with where they lived or were born-it's where they played and who they played with that gave them there distinct sounds. The above mentioned players were all heavily influnced by thier surroundings-made no difference where they recorded.
West Coast blues swings and flows with jazzy intonations-Willam Clarke,Rod Piazza,Mark Hummel.
When I think of Piedmont blues,Cephas and Wiggins come to mind.
Texas blues has a distinct sound all its own Blind Lemon Jefferson and Lightnin' Hopkins are two good examples. It is heavily guitar influenced,with the likes of Stevie Ray Vaughn.
Memphis blues gave us Furry Lewis and Sleepy John Estes.
Big Joe Williams and Son House are good examples of Delta blues-
There is definetly a distinct line that can be drawn
through all of the sub-genres .
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 7:22 AM
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kudzurunner
3169 posts
Apr 03, 2012
7:57 AM
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The elective affinities that govern today's blues world have confused the issue. Players from Finland or Belgium can choose to play "West Coast blues," and they can sound (within limits) exactly like their favorite USA players in that idiom.
B. B. King comes from the Delta, but he pointedly does NOT play a Delta style: he never (with one or two rare recorded exceptions) plays behind his own vocals. He was influenced by Texas (T. Bone Walker) and gypsy (Django Reinhardt) styles. His big band sound is a Memphis sound; it's also a Houston sound because, as Roger Wood demonstrates in DOWN IN HOUSTON, many of his players were from Houston and went home to Houston when they weren't playing with him, staffing the jam sessions at Houston's black clubs.
Charlie Musselwhite and Norton Buffalo spent a lot of years on the West Coast, but they don't play in a West Coast style.
Sugar Blue comes from Harlem, he played on the streets of NYC, but he lived in Paris, recorded there, then moved to Chicago in the mid-1980s (or maybe early 1980s) and was mentored to some extent by guys like Big Walter--who convinced him to TB full time, as he told us last year at HCH. Sugar Blue's style isn't specifically a Chicago style, but it's been inflected by Chicago.
Early Mississippi blues guitar is many things. Some of those things sound like Son House, but others sound entirely different. The Mississippi Sheiks were the most popular blues act in Mississippi during the 1930s, but their light jazzy guitar stylings--one or more of the Chatmons and Walter Vincson, I believe--don't sound like "Delta blues."
Texas blues guitar, similarly, isn't one specific thing. Blues scholars generally say that Texas blues guitar is "lighter," less groove oriented, more inclined to toss in jazzy single string runs: Blind Lemon did indeed play like that. But Stevie Ray isn't light and he is definitely groove oriented; same with Albert Collins. Texas blues often has horns, but so does West Side Chicago blues. And so does West Coast blues, thanks to L.A.'s Central Avenue connection.
The one thing that CAN be said with some certainty is that there are very broad similarities between Mississippi and upper Midwest (Chicago/Detroit) styles, and between Texas and West Coast (LA) styles, because the Great Migration of black folk took a lot of musicians from those southern areas out to those northern and/or western areas. That's how the trains, busses, and rivers flowed. Similarly, when you find older black blues performers in NYC, most of them come from the Southeast: Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida. Because I-95 and the leading train and bus routes flowed north from those places.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 8:00 AM
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tmf714
1072 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:05 AM
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It had nothing to do with migration-it was simply the fact that Chicago and areas north had a much better music scene going on-the pay was better,great recording studios were plentiful,and the living conditions were certainly much better.
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5F6H
1131 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:13 AM
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tmf714 "There is definetly a distinct line that can be drawn through all of the sub-genres."
I tend to think more in terms of Venn diagrams (e.g. Muddy would fit Delta, electric & Chicago all at the same time, rather than in one or the other) than a distinct dividing line...that line is going to be somewhat long, loopy & squiggly when you're finished with it! ;-)
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tmf714
1073 posts
Apr 03, 2012
8:58 AM
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"that line is going to be somewhat long, loopy & squiggly when you're finished with it"
I guess I should have said a line "between" each-
My point exactly-Venn is too elementary for this kind of subject-you need to divide these sub-genres into the above mentioned idioms.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 9:05 AM
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kudzurunner
3170 posts
Apr 03, 2012
9:09 AM
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@tmf: "It had nothing to do with migration." That's truly funny. In this history of this forum, that statement stands, IMO, as the single most factually and intellectually indefensible statement any forum member has ever made in good faith.
The movement of the music, the popularity of the music, and the transformations of the music had everything to do with migration. Please read THE WORLD DON'T OWE ME NOTHING by David Honeyboy Edwards and DEEP BLUES by Robert Palmer. Read THE PROMISED LAND by Nicholas Lemann.
Without the great migration of hundreds of thousands [sic] of black Mississippians to Chicago between 1940 and 1960, Chicago blues as we know it--the Muddy Waters/Little Walter school--doesn't happen. You get the Bluebird sound and then it dies on the vine. Those hundreds of thousands of black Mississippian pouring into Chicago (and Detroit, and Gary, and elsewhere) change everything. All the harp players we talk about here--Cotton, Carey Bell, Big Walter, Junior Wells (from Memphis/W.Memphis)--were part of that migration. Sociologists talk about a push/pull dynamic: the push was a desire to escape Jim Crow, the pull was the jobs, the excitement, the fact that other musicians had already made the trek.
If I didn't know better, tmf, I'd swear you were disagreeing with me just to pick a fight. You can't win this fight. The Great Migration happened; it's the single most important key determinant in the stylistic relationship that exists between Mississippi blues and Chicago blues. A similar migration occurred that took many thousands of black Texans (and Okies) out to California. Amos Millburn and T. Bone Waker are both great examples of the latter dynamic; so is the world described in Chester Himes's IF HE HOLLARS LET HIM GO. The West Coast sound has strong elements of the Texas sound because black Texas musicians--including Millburn and Walker--and their black audience moved out to California and created blues scenes in Oakland and L.A.'s Central Avenue. They migrated, again, for a range of reasons; a desire to escape Jim Crow was always a part of the equation; so was the pull of the brights lights and big cities. The end result, though, wasn't just a stylistic resemblance between musics in different parts of the country, but two-way trade routes that saw some reciprocal action between, say, Chicago and Mississippi, so that Mississippi's local music ended up becoming amplified as Mississippi migrants to Chicago came back home bringing the latest sounds.
We've got lots of other things to argue about. There's nothing to argue about here.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 9:25 AM
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tmf714
1074 posts
Apr 03, 2012
9:25 AM
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What about the first migration from 1910-1930?
I am quite sure that was not based on music-
My point is ,why bring race into it? It's the same old with you.
We are discussing the different generes of blues-not the migration or race-
You constanly break your own forum creed,then bitch about it-go figure.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 10:10 AM
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tmf714
1075 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:09 AM
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@timeisitight-not asking you. The questions are specifically directed to Adam-I will ask you when i want or need your opinion-don't hold your breath.
"Because we're talking about the music of Africans in North America. "
Thats funny-I could have sworn Rod,Mark and William were white--
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 10:11 AM
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Learning To Reed
50 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:26 AM
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"@timeisitight-not asking you. The questions are specifically directed to Adam-I will ask you when i want or need your opinion-don't hold your breath."
@tmf714 - If your questions are to Adam only, then you need to send him an e-mail. This is a public forum and anyone is free to chime in. We don't need your permission to answer your know-it-all posts. If you don't like like it, piss off.
You owe timeistight an apology in my opinion.
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HarpNinja
2294 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:32 AM
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I thought there was just the blues!? How can there be deviations from just the blues? That would mean accepting change and variation. Obviously all of these but one are not the blues. It would also mean creating original sounds, which then wouldn't be blues either.
If you accept variations of the blues, then things like blues-rock need also be the blues, which is blasphemy!
Or is it a regional title?
I therefore declare that on this, the 3rd day of April in the year of our Lord 2012 that all harmonica driven blues music containing modern note selection, the use of overbends, adherence to harmony, variations of the I IV V progression, non-standard blues rhythms, and tone selection using all three octaves of the harmonica be referred to as Southern Minnesota Blues.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 10:38 AM
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HarpNinja
2295 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:34 AM
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If it comes after 1912, then it isn't blues.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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nacoran
5484 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:39 AM
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You can't ignore race when talking about the blues. You can treat it with respect, but that's it. Tmf714, yes, a lot of the guys playing blues harp now are white. That says something about race too. Just what part of the creed to you think this discussion is running afoul of?
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Nate
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loscott
9 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:46 AM
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There certainly are noticeable differences between regional styles, but I do think that there comes a point when excessive compartmentalizing ceases to be productive. Adam, I'm curious what you mean when you say the "elective affinities that govern today's blues world have confused the issue." Is it simply, as you say, that blues music has spread in popularity and this is demonstrable by the fact that European players can emulate American regional styles with such a high degree of accuracy that those styles are no longer fixed to their original regions? Or were you referring to something else? I've come to understand that the aesthetic sensibilities of modern blues audiences have resulted in the privileging of certain subgenres over others. Several years ago, I saw Keb' Mo', who does not play within single easily defined category. The audience was what you would expect-- predominantly middle aged and white. One woman felt compelled to shout continuously throughout his set "Bring us the Delta!" I think a lot of the nonsense surrounding Robert Johnson and his music has left an indelible mark on the contemporary blues scene and many fans come to the blues seeking "dark" and "primal" music, which is reflected in the demands they make on the artists.
One regional distinction that has fascinated me is that between Delta blues and Hill Country blues. It's remarkable that significantly different styles developed within counties of each other. I understand that the geographical landscape (flat vs. hilly) might have something to do with it, but I don't know why that would be. Drum and fife music (e.g., Otha Turner) seems to play an important role in Hill Country blues, but it's absent from the Delta tradition. Perhaps very local influences resulted in the divergence of the two strains of music. I've never been to Mississippi, so I don't feel like I can assess any social or cultural distinctions between the two regions.
Another peculiar comparison is found between Chicago blues harmonica and its New York counterpart (particularly in the 1980s). Sugar Blue is a helpful case study for examining these two scenes. I'd like to know more about the musical features that separate the two idioms. I've gathered that the NY scene leaned closer to funk and was more willing to depart from traditional blues formats. I'm sure that Chicago players had a strong influence on the the New York ones. Didn't Nat Riddles have a tone that was very similar to Big Walter's?
With respect to Texas blues guitar, I think trying to trace an uninterrupted line from Blind Lemon Jefferson to T-Bone Walker to Stevie Ray Vaughan is downright silly. These musicians came from different worlds, and while there are some interesting parallels between them, a diachronic approach to their music leaves much to be desired. That said, Texas does seem to be a breeding ground for commercially successful, technically proficient blues guitarists, and there could be an explanation for this that's rooted in its regional characteristics.
Great Migration patterns obviously had a lot to do with the development of regional subgenres in the mid-twentieth century. In addition to Lemann's monograph, another book on the subject is Isabel Wilkerson's The Warmth of Other Suns.
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HarpNinja
2296 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:50 AM
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"That's truly funny. In this history of this forum, that statement stands, IMO, as the single most factually and intellectually indefensible statement any forum member has ever made in good faith."
I know sometimes people use LOL online and they aren't really LOL'ing while staring at the computer screen, but I almost spit out my coffee just now. I don't even know why it is so funny, but it is.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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timeistight
515 posts
Apr 03, 2012
11:12 AM
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"Thats funny-I could have sworn Rod,Mark and William were white--"
Thought you didn't want to talk to me?
There are some pretty good Ska and Reggae players in England. That doesn't prove those musics aren't Jamaican.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 11:15 AM
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HarpNinja
2297 posts
Apr 03, 2012
11:14 AM
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Race aside, and in all seriousness, I think a good cue is simply familiarity with the regions identified in the OP. If you look at how the music scenes worked back in the day - when these handles were established - players were overwhelmingly regional.
It makes sense that if a sound hit big in a region, which is how music circulated in regards to both air play and gigging, other artists either out of economic or personal reasons would hop on the bandwagon. A contemporary example would be grunge music from the 90's.
What makes this tough to compare to today is that we have instant access to music from all over the world. Region doesn't become as significant in determining what influences contemporary artists. I can listen to music from the deep south all day without leaving my home.
I can only generalize the sub groups by what I hear - using he same cues that make blues the blues. From a technical standpoint, I don't have the vocabulary to articulate it well, but I can call a spade a spade.
Most the blues around here (Minnesota) has a West Coast vibe now. Not really my thing, and I can explain why it has moved that way, but no one cares, lol.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Mods
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas - When it needs to come from the soul...
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belfast_harper
297 posts
Apr 03, 2012
11:27 AM
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Did record companies have a big impact on the sub-genres that we get today?
I am thinking about Excello records in particular. Did Excello create the swamp blues sound? Or were there other record companies in Louisiana recording swamp blues before Excello?
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 11:28 AM
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timeistight
516 posts
Apr 03, 2012
12:01 PM
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I think the impact of what record companies chose to record was huge.
Louis Armstrong's famous "Hot Five" and "Hot Seven" groups never existed outside the studio. At the time he made those records, he was playing exclusively with baig bands but, for whatever reason, Gennett chose to record him in small group settings. Similarly, Leonard Chess recorded Muddy Waters in duos, trios and quartets long after his stage band had grown much larger.
Also, a lot of the artist that we think of as strictly blues players had much wider repertoires than got recorded by the companies, who didn't see the point of recording sharecroppers doing pop or country tunes.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2012 1:09 PM
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nacoran
5490 posts
Apr 03, 2012
7:00 PM
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You still see different music trends coming out of a specific region (or at least you did when I was a kid, you whippersnappers!) That may have changed now with the internet, but just 20 years ago grunge came out of Seattle. Local bands copied each other's style until it was distinct from what was going on in other parts of the country, and suddenly it caught on nationally and everyone was doing it.
I know we all want to see the world, or even just America as a place where color doesn't matter, but even when institutionally it doesn't matter it still influences how people behave. I remember a few times having sort of meta moments walking into a college dining hall. There would be a couple hundred people and there would be black tables and white tables, and sometimes you could look around and it would be absolute. In a dining hall with a couple hundred people everyone had arranged themselves that way. At the same school I took a class in Irish Literature. By random luck, the class before us in the same room was an African-American Studies class. Each class had about 40 students. As the previous class filed out, all but one of them was black. In the Irish Lit class, there was only one person who wasn't white (and there were a huge number of red heads!) My friend minored in Women's Studies. He was the only man in the department and everyone assumed he was gay. (His red headed wife would disagree.) My friends influence what music I listen to. My experiences influence what music I listen to. Race and religion and politics and where I live influence what I listen to. I don't set out to do it that way, but the more you hear a certain style the more it gets stuck in your head and you internalize it. That doesn't mean we have to use those boundaries in how we play, but it means that they are there, at least historically and formatively. If you just want to talk about harmonica in purely mechanical terms, you can do that, but there are history and anthropology buffs on the forum to.
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Nate
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tf10music
145 posts
Apr 03, 2012
9:17 PM
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tmf714: nothing you've said has actually addressed the point that adam and timeistight have made. I'd just like to point out that distorting our apprehension of history to the point of colorblindness shows a degree of discomfort with race that far overshadows that of those who are willing to address it directly for what it is: a significant factor in the development of the blues. In any case, I don't think anyone is claiming that the blues CAUSED the great migration. Denying that the great migration was a major cause of the spread of the blues is a pretty ridiculous thing to do.
On another note -- I'm very interested in the hill country blues. It doesn't ever seem to get the love that some it its counterparts do, and I've noticed some fairly consistent tendencies that it has as a subgenre. It's certainly very conducive to looping -- R.L. Burnside gave us a taste of that, and I hope it is explored more. I wonder if anyone who is more knowledgeable than I am can delineate some traits that are fairly unique to the hill country style.
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loscott
10 posts
Apr 03, 2012
10:01 PM
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http://www.hillcountryharmonica.com/hillcountryblues.html
That's a nice summary of the salient features of Hill Country blues (I'm assuming written by our very own kudzurunner). My understanding is that one of its major departures from Delta blues is the paucity or total lack of chord changes; this results in the "drone" feel. It relies on a hypnotic groove that drives the music forward. There is of course overlap: John Lee Hooker, a Delta musician, did not use many chord changes and Mississippi Fred McDowell, a Hill Country musician, had an affinity for slide guitar, a technique strongly associated with Delta blues.
What interests me is what about a region lends itself to a certain type of music. Why was Seattle where grunge developed? What social factors were at play? When considering those questions for various local blues idioms, I think the dichotomy between urban and rural settings often has much to do with the distinctions within the music. From city to city or farmland to farmland, however, I have a hard time determining key factors that would account for musical variations. Perhaps I am approaching the problem from the wrong angles. I would love to hear what other people think.
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