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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Musical theory for harp?
Musical theory for harp?
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Luke juke
Guest
Oct 22, 2008
6:18 AM
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Is there any good books i can read that explain music theory specifically aimed at the harp player. I think i'm at the stage now where this knowledge could take onto the next level
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cm16600
20 posts
Oct 22, 2008
11:47 AM
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Jon Gindick's rock and blues harmonica book explain the basics in an original way.
David Barrets have a lot to offer as well ,i bought building harmonica technique DVD 1 and 2,and i found them really interesting . talking about progressions , scales ect...
http://www.harmonicamasterclass.com/bhtv1.htm
Chris
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2008 10:12 PM
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Oct 22, 2008
12:10 PM
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There is nothing out there. I touch on some theory in many of my youtube vids, so that might be a good start.
The best way to learn is to STOP listening to harmonica players unless they are players that actually play the harp like a "real" instrument.
If you want a book on theory the best one to get is The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine it's written by a musician and easy to follow.
You'll want to get a keyboard so things are more visual for you.
Leanring the play the harmonica at a high level is not easy. Howard levy will tell you that it's the hardest instrument to learn. And if you think about it, it's three times the work as any other instrument. There are three octaves and each scale in each octave is played differently. On top of that there are intonation issues to conquer.
There are a few people who've accomplished the task so it certainly can be done.
Good luck.
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Tweed
28 posts
Oct 22, 2008
9:37 PM
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There's nothing out there???????????????????
Take CM16600's advice on Gindick and Barrett and it will take you a long way.
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gene
30 posts
Oct 22, 2008
10:07 PM
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I don't know Barrett, but Jon (without an "h")Gindick's Rock n' Blues Harmonica is a great answer.
Here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/Rock-Blues-Harmonica-Techniques-Generation/dp/0930948106
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2008 10:09 PM
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bluesnut
44 posts
Oct 22, 2008
11:21 PM
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Check our aboutmusictheory.com Also Adam dose a good job breaking down theory in a simple but effective way on the Counting and playing your way through a 12 Bar blues instructional video. It helped my understanding of the blues structure. To me putting the theory in to practice is the takes the most work.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Oct 23, 2008
6:39 AM
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YES... there is nothing out there.
Barret gets his stuff from jerry coker's book Improvising Jazz
Go to the source.
Harmonica players are notoriously terrible musicians why would any one want to learn theory from 9.9/10 of them?
I speak from experience.
Stop messing around and get The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine you don't have to learn everything but anything you want to know about music is in there and all you ahve to do is look it up.
David Barret is a friend and he'll agree when I say his theory stuff is as basic as you can get.
Wanna play like a "real" musician then you have to learn like one. Playing by ear will only get you so far. Now of course if you're justa hobbiest or amatuer then do whatever works for you but if you want to get to the highest levels possible there is NOT a harmonica book available that will get you there.
At least not yet.
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oldwailer
273 posts
Oct 23, 2008
11:10 AM
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Chris Michalek is a world class player--so I think he is probably right that there is "nothing out there" as far as specifically for harmonica.
There is however, a kind of music cheat sheet available at music stores--it's on card stock and is 4 pages of fine print. As far as I know, there is no question about music theory that cannot be figured out from this sheet.
As far as making it specific to the harp--you'd have to get one of those charts that tell you what the notes are on the harp you want to use--then do a lot of figuring out as far as how to make a scale minor--or play a certain mode or etcetera.
Of course this would be going the hard way--but you sure would end up knowing your theory for the harp.
Then, go write a book that will really fill this need--I'd buy it--cuz I'm too lazy to do that much work! I just want to wail. . .
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2008 11:12 AM
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J-Sin
Guest
Oct 23, 2008
11:27 AM
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What about Steve Baker's The Harp Handbook? Even Howard Levy has said it's the first REAL book about the harmonica. Covers the basics, plus positions, different music styles, excercises, harp anatomy... Comes with a cd.
Some say it's the "harmonica bible". I don't know about that, but it's a good reference for beginners and advanced beginners with no background of music theory. Worth reading, I might say.
I guess besides that - just like Chris M. said - there's nothing. Nothing for the more advanced players. But then again, why should there? Theory is universal. You should get acquainted with general blues/jazz theory, no matter what instrument you play.
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rustywater
27 posts
Oct 23, 2008
1:48 PM
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I have read the Steve Baker book and it is very good but the theory is not aimed at the beginner in my view.
My soon to be ex wife is a trained classical musician who has studied musical theory. She looked at written blues music and said it was some of the most complicated sheet music she had looked at.The reason has to be that traditional blues music does not follow any form of musical theory.
Now if you read Steve Bakers book, which as I say is very good, and then listen to the likes of Sonny Boy 1 or 2, Little Walter, Big Walter, Sonny Terry or any of the great blues guitarists I cannot believe that any one of them knew a single paragraph of what he has written.
I think the blues is about feeling and individual passion for the music not about Mixolydian modes or phrygian scales (which are only partly covered in Steve Bakers book)
One thing that pisses off the average Classical musician is the fact that they have to stick to all the theory and that any form of improvisation is frowned upon.
One of the great appeals of Adams way of teaching is that he talks about practical harp playing and only touches on the theory to explain something or make it clearer.
If anyone is in any doubt about the 'blues masters' then look at Hal Leonards transcriptions of the great Muddy Waters guitar playing. Waters played nearly all his music using the key of E or he used a capo so that he played in other keys using the same fingering as in E.
B.B King has admitted he cannot play chords. I saw him 2 years ago and he is a master. As far as I am aware Clapton cannot read music and I read somewhere that the classical guitarist John Williams was envious of Clapton because unless it was written down he could not play it.
Theory is a good way of explaining some things but in my opinion it does not belong in blues or any other traditional folk music.
Sorry to ramble on but I feel strongly that sometimes we get bogged down with all the theory, and some of the best players of many instruments do not or did not know it, which blows the 'you cannot be a serious player unless you know it' theory out of the window.
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Luke juke
Guest
Oct 23, 2008
2:43 PM
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Whoa there. I dont need to know what notes are in an Ebminor flattened 7th chord or modes. So i think a jazz book would be way too advanced. I was just looking for some basic understanding of why for example: sometimes the 5blow works in a song and sometimes it doesn't. When i can play the cross harp major scale instead of the blues or rentatonic scale over the 1 chord.
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Trueblue
Guest
Oct 23, 2008
8:16 PM
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The late great Larry Adler was a brilliant Chromatic player mastering intricate classical pieces long before he could ever even read music. He had to learn to read music later in life when his mastery of the instrument was formerly recognised and he was asked to perform with an orchestra. IMHO a knowledge of music theory would not be essential to becoming a brilliant harmonica player however some knowledge of theory could possibly assist one to be better. I would think that there are many theorist nerds who know the ins and outs of music but are hopeless musicians ie they might have it technically right but just havn't got it. Having both like Howard Levy is a gift (lots of study, lots of practice and natural ability) and is a rarity. Its an interesting topic and it would be even more interesting to learn if some of our idols like Adam Gussow & Jason Ricci had formalised training in music theory for the harmonica?
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DutchBones
36 posts
Oct 23, 2008
10:45 PM
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Go with Jon's book and take it from there. It worked for me (and thousands of other aspiring harp players) After you're done with it (if that's possible) you'll move on to Barrett or Portnoy or whoever. When you've spend sometime with Jon's book, you will be able to figure out for yourself what the best next step is (for you)
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kudzurunner
134 posts
Oct 24, 2008
4:44 AM
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Since I've never read any of the books people are talking about here, I'll tread lightly. This is a great and needed discussion, though. Makes me think I need to work up some new videos! :)
I started playing harp and guitar at the same time, when I was 16, during my senior year in HS. I was equally serious about both. There was nobody around to take private lessons from, and I didn't have the money for that anyway. After I somehow managed to get good enough on blues/funk guitar to get in an excellent campus band during my sophomore year in college--a band made up of guys who salted our set list with Chick Corea's "Spain," Coltrane's "Impressions," and other chestnuts like "Groovin' High," along with the Stevie Wonder and Earth, Wind & Fire tunes that were our bread and butter--I realized that I needed to up my game. So I saved my money and enrolled in a seven-week summer course in jazz guitar at the Berklee College of Music in Boston.
It changed my life. I never could master jazz guitar leads, but I got very interested in those things called "extensions," and in chords (and chord solos) that utilized them. My continuing love of ninth and thirteenth chords traces to that summer. I learned just enough theory--not a lot, but just enough--to be able to analyze the blues repertoire and have no trouble, theory wise, with VIdom7 chords, II/V/I progressions, and all those other things that harp players with no theory find so mystifying.
My own recommendation for harp players would be to take a course in basic harmony or theory at your local music school or community college. Most places, I think, have an entry-level course: Harmony 101.
Get a guitar, at bare minimum. A piano would be better, but a guitar, like a harp, lets you learn one form and then move it around. Or, rather, you change frets--move up one, move down one--exactly the way you put down your C harp and pick up your D-flat harp. You can cheat. For that reason, a keyboard also has its advantages: it keeps you honest.
In any case, the GREAT weakness of most blues harmonica players is lack of any harmonic knowledge, much less jazz theory. The great blues harp players all knew exactly what they were doing, in harmonic terms, without taking theory classes--but still: none of them, that I know of, figured out what I managed to figure out pretty quickly, once I started poking around: that the 6 draw bend and the 3 draw hard bend, which give you the flat 9th (one half step above the tonic note), is a great note to use against a VIdom7 chord ("I'm gonna lay around the shanty, mama, and put a good buzz on"), because it's the major third of that chord: a chord tone. For somebody like Chris M., this is paltry stuff; it's baby steps. I agree. For me, it was just a neat trick that made perfect sense once you knew anything about harmony--once you could play a VIdom7 chord on the guitar and find the third on the harp.
My point is simple: a little harmony goes a long way, if you're a blues harmonica player. So make the effort to obtain that knowledge. I'm sure by the time this thread is over, we'll have come up with some answers.
Oh, and one last thing, with which I'm sure Chris would agree: Jamey Aebersold. If you don't know who he is, google him.
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2008 4:52 AM
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kudzurunner
135 posts
Oct 24, 2008
4:55 AM
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In fact, I just googled Jamey Aebersold and found the following link, one that contains a series of sublinks leading to FREE downloads. The basics of harmony, and jazz harmony in particular, are right here. I believe I'm about to take a refresher course myself:
http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=JAZZ&Category_Code=_HANDBOOK
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kudzurunner
136 posts
Oct 24, 2008
5:02 AM
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Then again, now that I've downloaded and looked at a few things: pretty tough going for harp players making a first foray.
I should clarify: I don't read music. I think in terms of scale degrees. There's a big difference between those two things. I can tell you that the "blue third" becomes a blue seventh when you switch to the IV chord, but I can't tell you, immediately, what the actual note is when I play it on a C harp, or a D-flat harp. I have to stop and think about it, and figure it out.
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Chris Michalek
Guest
Oct 24, 2008
5:45 AM
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Here's a MBH exclusive.
Keep in mind I might have to remove this file but I've posted Jamey Abersold's
Vol 1. How to play music and improvise
The aebersold series is something every musician should look into. There is literally something for everybody. Howard Levy gave me my first two Abersold CD and I was hooked from that point. I now personally have over 100 different abersold volumes. While my friends were out chasing ladies and getting drunk, I was "getting high" on music.
If you were to take private lessons from me the curriculum goes like this
Lesson 1. show me how you play. How to set up your harp to play better. I teach you how to get all of the notes on the harmonica. Homework - practice the your favorite song and play it for the next session.
Lesson 2. I show you how to make your favorite song more musical by applying basic music theory. Intro to Jamey Aebersold Vol 1: How to play music
Even if you are planning being a weekend warrior blues hound the stuff contained in Volume 1 will help you understand music on a whole 'nother level and with added benefit of being able to talk "music" with the guitarist and bassist as most of them learned this stuff in their early days of playing.
There is no tab just regular staff, notes and chords but you can do what I did when I was learning this stuff. Get a chart of all the notes on the harmonica and then photocopy the page you want to write on and write the tab for whatever harmonica I wanted to use. I often did all of these exercises on 5 or 6 different harmonicas. If you do this enough times eventually you won't need tab anymore and you'll have taught yourself how to read music!
You don't have to go through the whole book as there is a section just for playing blues. I did a youtube where I played a blues in 11th position - it all correlates to the info in this book. And speaking of Vids, I don't mean to take anything away from Adam but most of my Youtubes touch on Theory in a very basic way. There is actually a method to the madness behind my videos. The 11th and 12th position vids are actually an introduction to playing rhythm changes - something I need to do soon.
I didn't post the music tracks because I plan on making Youtubes out of most of them (Unless Adam wants to do this or better yet, perhaps BOTH of us should do this) and you really should buy your own copy of the CD.
oh yeah the link: http://www.harmonicapros.com/music-tools/
The other tool every musician should have is Band in a box or something similar for Mac (I don't know what that is)
BIAB is great and there are countless files available on the internet in the various groups and forums for the product.
If you have questions, ask away!
CM
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oldwailer
277 posts
Oct 24, 2008
9:38 AM
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Oh, crap--another 200 bucks I gotta spend for Band-in-a-Box 2007 MegaPAK to soothe my habit--I should have stayed with drugs--it was cheaper. . .
Wonderful tips from two world class players--thanks, Adam and Chris. . .
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kudzurunner
137 posts
Oct 24, 2008
2:04 PM
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Chris, that is an incredible PDF! Thanks so much for the link. I heartily recommend that every blues harmonica player, of whatever level, download the thing, take a deep breath, and then plunge in. Let the stuff that seems beyond you just ease on by. But I guarantee that SOME of what Aebersold says will strike you with the force of revelation. His basic principles--how to create practice routines for yourself, how to work with different note values as you run through scales, depending on your talent level, and how to respect your gifts by working with diligence and discipline: these are at the heart of my own approach, and I'm sure I absorbed some of them from Aebersold when I purchased several of his records and workbooks years ago.
Speaking of which: two days ago I ordered the Sonny Rollins volume (Vol. 8), so that I could finally get serious about "St. Thomas." I played that on the street in Helena a couple of weeks ago, and both Sterling and Dave (gtr and drums) came long for the ride. I think Satan and Adam will add that for next summer. It's a song I've futzed around with for 20 years, but never really mastered or performed. Anyway, it came in today's mail and is sitting on my desk. Here we go......
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2008 2:06 PM
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MrVerylongusername
14 posts
Oct 24, 2008
3:09 PM
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Great thread!
Chris M - I wholeheartedly agree. As one of the 99.9% I readily agree that what attracted me to the harp in the first place was the fact you could learn it with little musical knowledge. Analysing the rut I'd got into with my licks (and having met a bunch of musicians who wanted to go beyond I IV V 12 bars) the last few years, I've made a conscious effort to rectify that position. I still don't read dots, but at least know I can hold my own with guitarists and keyboard players. Playing alongside jazz trained horn players has been incredibly enlightening.
Being able to play 2nd and 3rd position is one thing. Being able to explain to a guitarist WHY it works is entirely another.
Chris, your videos on 11th and 12th position are brilliant and I urge everyone to give them a try. (Adam or Chris, please do some lessons on 5th position - I'm still struggling a bit with that)
As for Macs, I know that Band in a Box is available for Mac. Apple's own Garageband, although very different to BIAB is also great for quickly putting together backing tracks. One little known function of Garageband is that it can import midi files too. I wouldn't be without it when woodshedding.
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Preston
65 posts
Oct 24, 2008
3:51 PM
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I would love to see both Adam and Chris doing different takes on the same material. I find I learn a subject best when I can see two different approaches, and then make my stab at it based off of a blend of the two.
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bluesnut
46 posts
Oct 24, 2008
5:31 PM
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Aloha all,
Chris, Thanks for the pdf link. Good stuff
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Oisin
28 posts
Oct 25, 2008
3:52 AM
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Hi there, as Verylonguser name says and probably most of the people who subscribe to this forum would agree, the reason most of us started playing harp was a) we loved the sound and 2) we didn't have to learn music to play.
I would doubt that the Walters, Sonnyboys, Junior Wells and all the other greats had much music lessons under their belts and those guys got along just fine (a little talent helped also of course!).
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the option to play by ear/tabs is not a wrong one just as learning musical theory is obviously not wrong either...it's horses for courses, your own choice and like every single post on this forum (including this one)just someone's humble opinion. If you enjoy learning theory and have the time and inclination to do it then that's great, if you don't well that's great too.
The reason I'm writing this very obvious post in the first place is that if I was a person brand new to blues harp and suddenly came across this great site, a thread like this could be a little off-putting and intimidating. I know that's certainly not the intention of any of you guys in posting and all I am trying to do is inject a little alternative opinion.
I love playing harp at my local jam but that's as far as I want to go due to family/work commitments and getting to blow my harp every week is what keeps me sane. I think putting unneccessary pressure on myself to learn music theory could tip me over the edge.....and taking up golf!
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kudzurunner
142 posts
Oct 25, 2008
3:00 PM
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Oisin:
You've raised a good point, and I thank you for raising it. I make a habit of pointing out, during the clinics I teach, that none of the players who invented blues on the harmonica--certainly not the guys in my top 10 list, with the possible exception of Butterfield--knew how to read music. I don't. I'm not a "music school guy," despite the fact that I'm a committed teacher. The blues harmonica does NOT lend itself well to the standard music-school approach. The heart of blues harmonica, as I ALWAYS point out, is three things that can't be notated: tone, microtonal inflections (i.e., blues pitches, quarter-tones, vocalizations effected through pitch-shifts), and syncopation/swing/groove. None of those things can be notated in a way that communicates them effectively. They need to be learned by ear, and by example, not from a book.
By the same token, the perspective you sketch out in your first paragraph feels a little self-limiting. Why decide before the fact that you're not going to investigate an aspect of blues harmonica--namely, the language it shares with other instruments, the language of basic harmonic and melodic concepts--that might help you more effectively communicate with other musicians, or might even help you discover something interesting and useful about the music you make on your instrument as a solo player?
My approach to teaching the instrument, as should be obvious by now, is to welcome as many perspectives as possible, and so I welcome yours. But that won't stop me from acknowledging that I've gained a great deal, as a player and a teacher, from one seven-week block of immersion therapy in the world of jazz harmony, 21 years ago. I got a reputation at Berklee, by the way, as "the blues guitar guy." I just couldn't play jazz guitar, but I had a better-than-average ear for blues pitches. I don't believe I'll ever really have what it takes to play jazz, and I'm OK with that.
My somewhat preachy urgings in several posts above should be taken in that spirit: I think blues harmonica players have a great deal to gain by learning some basic harmony. There's a prejudice out there, as you may know, on the part of other musicians, which leads them to assume that the harp player probably DOESN'T know much about such things--and will probably play too loudly too much of the time, and will probably step all over the vocals, and will probably look lost the moment something other than 12-bar blues comes up. I do my part to diminish that prejudice.
But no: if you'd prefer to ignore this thread, please do. The most basic thing harp playing is about is playing what you want to play, how you want to play it, when you want to play it. I never forget that, and it's evident that you and I come together on that point. Thanks for posting.
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2008 3:05 PM
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Oisin
29 posts
Oct 25, 2008
5:02 PM
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Hey Adam, thanks for a great reply. I hope this might explain where I'm coming from with my last post.
About 3-4 months ago a friend of mine told me about a guy he had met who, during their conversation, told him he played a little harp. As my friend only knew one other harp player(me) he decided to hook us up and right away I hit it off with this guy Tom.
Well Tom played me "Amazing Grace" in first position and it reminded me of when I first learned "Oh Susannah".
He couldn't really bend or hit single notes but he did have a huge tattoo of a marine band on his back (really!) and he loved the sound of the harp. So we spent a few hours together and I taught him how to bend (using a combination of Jon G's "oohwee" and Chris M's straw methods) and how important single notes are.
A month later I took Tom to his first blues jam (which he didn't even know exisited) and I told him to get up and give it a go. I took your advice and said don't be afraid to make mistakes and a little nervously he got up and took to the stage. He was a little hesitant at first but after a few minutes he really started to go for it and I sat with my mouth open as he blew me away with some great bends and even a little vibrato, which I had just touched on with him but told him not to worry too much about yet.
At the end of his third song he got a huge cheer from the audience and he was the happiest man on earth.(And I was the second)
Tom is going to be a great harp player. He has a wonderful ear and I've shown him everything I know and he just can't get enough of it. He now has access to a p.c and I've told him about this site so expect a few orders off him as wants to know EVERYTHING about blues harp.
(I expect he'll probably read this too)
The difference between Tom and I is that he is going to give it that extra effort that will make him a great player whereas I just haven't got the time and, if I'm honest with myself, the inclination to start learning about musical theory. I just love banging out "Help me" in my garage at night when the kids have gone to bed and that's enough for me. (Now when the kids leave home that might be a different story)
Playing the harp really does keep me sane and that's what I use it for, as a means of relaxation.
I love this site, and the way you teach Adam and I think everyone will agree that we all searched for a down to earth teaching site before you came along with those mind blowing lessons on youtube.
I agree with everything you say in your post and all I really wanted to say to any new people coming along is that you can take it as far as you want, but the main thing is....if your not enjoying yourself, then your not doing it right.
Peace and thanks for your gift to us.
Oisin
Last Edited by on Oct 25, 2008 5:49 PM
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mr_so&so
4 posts
Nov 07, 2008
11:28 AM
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I really love playing harp and Adam's lessons have been the thing that turned me from a long-time tinkerer, stuck on a few riffs, into a budding player. I've benefited greatly from Adam's sprinklings of theory in his lessons. Technique is important, and you can learn the right notes by ear and feel, or by rote, but my intellect demands to know "why" as well. Adam answers my questions without going on about it. If I want to learn more, I have something to go on.
Seems to me Jon Gindick does an excellent job of teaching "musicality", but he is often too light on the theory for me. But I'll give Jon some credit for a theory insight he put out there in a recent video (the "third position how-to", I think it was). He said "Blues is minor notes played over major chords". Maybe I'm thick, but that was an "aha" moment for me, and Adam's theory sprinklings started to make complete sense to me.
Anyway, here is my list of the absolute minimum theory that a harp player needs to know:
1) Scales used to play blues: blues scale, minor pentatonic, major pentatonic, Dorian mode, etc. Blues melodies are made of these notes.
2) The "circle of fifths" for major scales. So you know what key of harp to play in each position for given key of musics (count counter-clockwise around the circle from the music key), and what key you are playing in for a given harp key and position (count clockwise around the circle from the harp key).
3) How major scales are constructed (by adding sharps and flats). Again, the circle of fifth gives you this. See http://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/, for an interactive circle. Now you can figure out the notes of the I, IV, and V chords for harmonizing, and work out the blues scale, etc., in any key.
4) All the possible notes that you can hit on a C harp
(since C major has no sharps or flats) with bends and overblows, etc.
See http://www.heyd.org/harp/bluesscale.html, or get the bendometer http://www.harpsoft.com/.
Now you can work out the harmonica tablature
for scales in any of the 12 positions for a C harp, along with harmonizing chords, chord tones, etc. This tablature then works on any key of harp.
5) Once you know the blues scale and harmonizing notes and chords in every position you want to play in, forget the theory and play --- with feeling.
I'd appreciate your corrections and additions to this list!
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2008 10:09 AM
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Theory question
Guest
Nov 10, 2008
3:41 PM
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I've been playing harp for two years now. Lately, I am really getting into music theory. I know this thread is about where to find music theory, but instead of starting a whole new thread, I'll just post a theory question on this one.
Probably a good question for Chris Michalek, I see he's posted on this thread a time or to.
Jon Gindick says you can play over an entire 12 bar blues on the 4 draw and it "won't make a mistake." I was analyzing this in my head today and had another thought. Using the C Harp in cross for our example, we know that we will be playing in the key of "G". The 4 draw is a "D" note. Although its not the root note, I'm applying what little theory I've picked up over the last couple of months and come to the conclusion that the D note sounds good over a G chord progression because it is a harmonizing note to the G. In major scale terms it would be the 5th, or part of the major triad.
So my question then is this: could a person play in the key of D over the key of G progression, or am I just crazy? I'll go find a jam track and try it, but in the meantime, what does everybody think? Definetely not traditional sounds, but hey, isn't this "Modern" blues harmonica?
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Blackbird
5 posts
Nov 10, 2008
5:43 PM
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Guest,
I would expect you could play in D over G. A harp in the key of G uses D in 2nd position, and D is a perfect fifth (interval) over G. I'm far from a music theory expert, but have been motivated to learn it since picking up the harmonica. Nonetheless, I haven't actually tried to play D over the key of G yet. But now I'm curious.
For those of you deeper into music theory than I am, feel free to correct me if I've made a mistake.
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GGiles
4 posts
Nov 11, 2008
6:32 AM
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I tend to seperate two aspects of music ... and I think most people do as well.
1. knowing your instrument
2. knowing music theory
Music theory is universal to all instruments and it is a tool you can add to what you know about your particular instrument. I think that in your path down the musical trail you will come to various impasses. Where can you go with your music? If you are trained by ear and don't know any theory it's a way to learn the walls around you and where the windows and doors are to get you someplace new.
On the otherside if you are a theroy person, you know the structure of your house and it's time to move out and improvise ... it's the great musicians of the world that figure out both sides of the coins.
You don't need a book on theory for harp ... start with learning what "note" the 2 hole draw is look in just about any basic book on theory. Oh ... and why do most people not bother with theory ... well, it's dry stuff. I'd much rather pick up a harp and wail on a hole that sounds good. Musical notation? Scales? Chord structure? Circle of Fiths? Nails on a chalk board ... but it will make you better.
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oldwailer
317 posts
Nov 12, 2008
9:01 PM
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Mr. Theory Question,
"So my question then is this: could a person play in the key of D over the key of G progression, or am I just crazy? I'll go find a jam track and try it, but in the meantime, what does everybody think? Definetely not traditional sounds, but hey, isn't this "Modern" blues harmonica? "
This is an interesting question--one that I'm not well qualified to answer--but I might learn something by thinking it through--so here goes anyway--hope I don't wrap you around a pole.
D works over a G chord because a G note contains a D--it is made of G B D--so D is the 5 of G.
In G, the 4 chord is C--D would clash there--unless the interval was large--then it would be a ninth chord--and we all know that is cool.
The 5 chord of G is D--Nuff said.
When singing in fifths--a common type of harmony--you would actually be singing a D scale over a G melody. Of course, you would be singing a fifth above every note of the melody--the progression--in the same way, you could also sing a B scale over G--and harmonize in thirds--and it would sound great.
The pesky little problem that you might have, if you were to try to improvise loosely in D over G--is that the scale intervals would be all screwy. In G, there is a half step between the third and fourth degrees of the scale (B & C) and another half step between the 6th and 7th degrees. All Major scales are constructed this way--it's a rule.
So, the G scale has one sharp--F#--which makes the half step between F# & G--and also creates a whole step between E & F#--which is also a rule--you gotta have it.
Now, the key of D has two sharps--F# and C#.
No rocket science--every time you try to wail on that C#--the 7th of the D scale--it's gonna suck against that C chord.
I'm just thinking it through with what I remember of music theory--could be wrong--but I think it wouldn't work--unless you had it together like synchronized swimmers--and that wouldn't be the blues. . .
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GGiles
8 posts
Nov 13, 2008
4:52 AM
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I think what you would end up sounding like would be similar to a barber shop quartet ... not very bluesy but then I don't know of any barber shop quartets that sing the blues so it could be really cool!
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Theory Question
Guest
Nov 13, 2008
5:35 AM
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Yes, I tried jamming on my low G in second position over Adam and Charlie's "Stormy Monday". It only really worked over the I and V chords, like Oldwailer figured, and definetely clashed in the IV Chord.
Then I had another thought. I picked up my C harp and jammed along with the song key for key, but when it came time for the harmonica solo, I switched to 3rd position and belted out some slant harp licks, and when it came around to the IV chord, I threw in some 1st position licks, (mostly the 5 overblow and 6 blow, so you could argue that I was back in second position, even though those notes are the flat 5th and 5th of the IV chord) putting me back in C for the chord, and finished the second chorus of my solo out in cross harp.
I would've never been able to do something like this a couple of months ago, so thank you, all you theory posters, and thanks to Adam too.
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XHarp
2 posts
Nov 13, 2008
1:36 PM
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Mr. Theory Question and all others for that matter,
If y'all will all be kind enough to let me interject for a minute,
You can understand why the key of D will play very well over a blues in the Key of G if you learn and understand the mode of G mixolidian.
What's that you say ?? G what?????
For a good example, albeit in guitar licks, listen to Sweet Home Alabama. In the original version, The lead is in Gmaj mixolidian mode. The later versions are in D major. They sound the same, and are played in the same fretboard position on the guitar, but with the root note in a different position in the scale, they are quite different. Best example I can think of right now but I'm sure others can think of more. Anyone?
Now learn the theory of music like Chris is telling you to do and get this knowledge. Its absolutely necessary to progress and it doesn't have to relate directly to your instrument.
Its up to you to learn it and apply it to the instrument that you've chosen. It is worth the study even for weekend warriors 'cause its cool and when the light goes off you'll be thirsty for more.
Have a blast everyone.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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oldwailer
320 posts
Nov 13, 2008
5:21 PM
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Jeez, Xharp--I was trying to not get all into the mode word. ;) Mixolydian mode is the answer, of course--but it is a scale based on the 5th note of the scale--in the case of G, it would be D to D--but uses the intervals of the key of G--therefore--no pesky C# to clang against the 4 chord.
But that, in my mind, is the Mixolydian mode of G played against a G scale--Of course, that works. It is the basis of thousands of guitar leads--I think it might have been the first lead scale I ever learned on guitar.
The question, I thought, was--can a D scale be played against a G scale--which I (maybe mistakenly) took to mean 'Can I play my D harp crossed against a progression in G?' Which is the question I tried to address. . .maybe I missed the point--my theory is a little rusty--but I'm working on it. . .
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Mr. Theory Question
Guest
Nov 14, 2008
6:03 AM
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Yeah Old Wailer, my experiment was to see if I could jam in the key of D using crossharp licks and riffs (or the D Blues Scale if you like) over a track in the key of G. I know a little bit about modes, and playing in modes was not my intent. However, I'm sure if I was overflowing with theory I would better understand what XHarp is saying in relating to what I'm trying to do to the mode.
Hang on, right in the middle of typing this I had an aha moment with what XHarp is saying.
Take the Root, blue third, fourth, and fifth of the blues scale in third position: it is the same as fifth, flat 7th, Octave of the root, and the 9th in cross harp. If I'm thinking correctly, playing third position is pretty damn close to playing a mode of cross harp.
XHarp, am I right?
You know my next door neighbor who plays punk/rock guitar says there is a reason why it is called "Theory". That it's all just a Theory and sometimes you stumble across something that sounds good and doesn't always make sense.
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XHarp
3 posts
Nov 14, 2008
6:58 AM
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You both just switched the light on. And it seems to me that you may well understand more then you are admitting to.
You will find in scales ( and modes of scales) that there are cross over pattern's, sequences or steps if you wish that will allow you to play in a mode in one key that may be different from the root key of the song. You may choose to prepare a tune with dissonance as a result of those modes or with harmony as in the use of the fifth over the root.
For my example, You can play in the key of D over a song in the key of G as long as you avoid playing the F# in the D scale. You can hit it and use it to move into the G or enhance the G but don't hang on it unless the tune or the effect you are searching for requires it. Better have the whole band on board or you'll send the dog into a wicked howl and the kids running for cover.
Try running a jam track in G and playing third position on your C Harp over it to hear the effect. There are some limitations but it really works and sounds cool.
So to move on, for all music at least understand the circle of fifth's and the modes in each scale to better understand how the fifth or even the flattened third of each scale can work over the root or with the root of the song, respectively.
Good Luck on your journey. I'm having a blast on mine and having a he** of a time with thrid position right now. Man, I thought second position was hard with all the draw notes....
So here's a question that I just hit on, If I can play the D over the G how would it sound playing the G over the D?
4th over root? Hmmmmmm....... Gonna try that and see...with a good bend on the third draw.... and playing between second and third position on the C Harp..... A new journey awaits.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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oldwailer
326 posts
Nov 15, 2008
8:15 PM
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I kept thinking about this thread today--something left that needed to be obsessed over--AHA! Xharp brought up the mixolydian mode--a familiar concept on guitar--but on the harp? Well--the Mixolydian mode of C is G!
As in--C harp played Crossed = the key of G! We use the Mix mode all the time--it works against G without an F# because that F is a Flatted 7th--which is cool.
A forhead slapper for me--everybody else probably had it figured out already. . .
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Preston
243 posts
Mar 27, 2009
6:13 AM
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I like finding old threads pertinent to a question I want to ask and popping them back to the top. Especially ones that provoked alot of thought and discussion.
ANWYAY, I have a new theory question for anybody with a good answer.
Why is 3rd position usually refered to as minor?
Originally I had satisfied myself by looking at the circle of fifths and seeing that it was the ii of the root, so that was why it was refered to as a minor position.
But what keeps nagging at me is this:
Let's use a C and a G harp for an example. When you play cross harp in G, you get the key of D, and it is refered to as major. When you play 3rd position on a C harp, you ALSO get the key of D, but it is referred to as minor.
If the notes didn't change, why then is it minor just because it is 3rd position? If the song itself is in the key of D, and you are playing the whole song in 3rd position, does it really matter that it is a minor ii chord of C anymore? I mean the harp isn't the focus now, it's the song.
This is the crazy shit that keeps me up at night...
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GermanHarpist
227 posts
Mar 27, 2009
7:51 AM
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First off: As far as I know, a certain position isn't fixed to any scale (major, minor, blues,... whatever). It just tells you what the first note of your scale is. Starting from that note you can build up (play) any scale.
Certain positions on the harp get 'attached' to certain scales because it is easy to play these scales in these positions (major in 1st, blues in 2nd, minor in 3rd, etc).
Of course this does not mean, that you can not play other scales in these positions (e.g. you can also play blues in 1st and minor in 2nd...).
Check out the table all the way down on Ricardos website. He is actually correct, it just might be somewhat confusing if don't know any music theory. I heard similar references in other places, but in IMO 3rd position doesn't necessarily mean minor.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 9:28 AM
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DanP
58 posts
Mar 27, 2009
8:23 AM
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In-depth knowledge of music theory is not essential for most blues harmonica players. Notice that I said "most" blues harmonica players meaning us mere mortals and not players like Howard Levy or Chris Michalek, so I'm not trying to contradict Chris or anybody else ( I'm not qualified to debate a professional player like Chris or Adam anyway being as they know a hell of a lot more about the harp than I do). Sure , you can take music theory and the harmonica as far as you want to take it and the more you know about music theory the more it will help you along the way. I've been studying music theory beyond the basics myself but I'm rambling on here (sorry about that). Now that I got that disclaimer out the way, I'll give my thoughts about what theory is required for us blues harp players. The only theory that is absolutely essential is knowing what intervals are or the distance in pitch between notes. Put another way, knowing the chromatic scale and how it relates to the diatonic harmonica and the note layout of the harp. When a player understands that, he or she will have a clearer understanding of bending notes and where the bent notes are and why we have a whole step bend in the 2 hole and a whole step and a half bend on the 3 hole and why we can only bend the 5 and 7 holes a quarter note in pitch etc. It's the bending of the notes to gets the half steps that are not naturally available on the diatonic harmonica is what the essence of blues harmonica is to me. That's why blues played on a diatonic harmonica has more soul than blues played on a chromatic harmonica where the player pushes a button to get the half steps. Understanding intervals is not a lot of music theory to know but a lot of good and even great players have gotten by with only that.
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 1:39 PM
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Honkin On Bobo
57 posts
Mar 27, 2009
9:28 AM
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" I had my ear on Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Bo Diddley on B.B. King and T-Bone Walker. There was nothing plastic about those guys. They went deep, and each note carried something important. I knew from a long time ago, the difference between notes and life. I'd rather play life than notes. It's OK to learn how to read music. It's not going to hurt you. You can go to the Berklee College of Music. But they don't teach you how to play life."
- Carlos Santana
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 9:29 AM
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mr_so&so
65 posts
Mar 27, 2009
10:07 AM
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GermanHarpist is right on according to my understanding. It turns out that in third position it is easy to play a Dorian minor scale without many bends. For this reason the position is often linked to that particular scale. Naming a position after a scale is confusing and misleading in my opinion. The choice of position should be about how it enables you to colour the piece you are playing, as well as how easily (perhaps) it lets you play the piece. For example, each position has a different relationship to the chords, splits, octaves, etc., we all learn in second position. These are all ways of "colouring" a piece. If your interest is blues, there are blues scales accessible in each position, but some are more challenging than others. Another example for blues players would be, e.g. if the upper octave notes suit the song, first position would be a good choice. For a jazz player, there are other reasons for choosing a particular position that I am ignorant of.
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Jim Rumbaugh
19 posts
Mar 27, 2009
10:40 AM
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Preston some basic answers.
q: "Why is 3rd position said to be minor"
a: if you start on 4 draw and work your way up, the first 5 notes are a minor scale.(skip 7 draw and go up to 8 draw for the octave)
q: "Why is 4th position said to be minor"
a: if you start on 6 draw and work your way up to 10 draw, you have played a minor scale.
A minor scale has the 3rd note flatted a half step,when compared to a regular scale. There are different mimor scales. You will hear a slight difference between the 3rd position scale and the 4th position scale. There is a place for both.
If you are good at bending, you can play the minor scale in 2nd position BUT ALWAYS BEND THE 3 DRAW DOWN A HALF STEP.Don't play it unbent or "blue third"
Good practice songs are, House of the Rising Sun, Joshua Fit the Battle of Jerico.
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mickil
134 posts
Mar 27, 2009
1:18 PM
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Man, you lot have been doing some serious typing.
OK, here's my take on this subject.
I am a music college guy so I do understand a lot of the underlying theory - like a 9th is just a 2nd (a compound 2nd in fact), an 11th is a 4th, etc.
I mentioned in a recent thread about how - at least for me - all that music theory stuff put my blues piano playing in a straight-jacket. With harp I always made a conscious effort not to think too much about any of that stuff, and, for me, it's working. Here's why I think that is the case.
Music is just a language, maybe the the most ancient of all languages. Virtually everyone, just by virtue of being a member of the human race understands how it should sound and what those sounds are actually meant to convey.
Agreement about how this works has never been settled on. On one side of the debate, Stravinsky said:
"Music is powerless to express anything; if it does so, it does by tacit and inveterate agreement; by values we have leant it, thrust upon it."
There are others who have disagreed with that, but it's fairly close to the point I'm trying to make, so I'll go with it.
When you play a musical instrument - any instrument - you are not doing it in a cultural vacuum. From the start you are imitating the sounds that have preceeded your efforts. How do you do that? By using your ears.
So, do you need theory to play harp or any other instrument? I'm my view, no. You already have the theory as a sound-scape in your head; you don't have to be able to describe it, unless you're in circles outside the blues / folk environment. To me, it's a bit like the way that most people can differentiate between direct object and indirect object pronouns in speech. But, ask them what those terms mean and they'll look at you like you're trying to be clever.
I'd endorse what rustywater said above:
"Theory is a good way of explaining some things but in my opinion it does not belong in blues or any other traditional folk music."
I do have to add a caveat to all of this. Earlier today, I watched Chris' excellent set of YT vids with Roberto and oldwailer. I truly did appreciate having the value of 12th position pointed out to me; it was invaluable. But, once I'd got the idea and found the tonic, I was off! My ear guided me into that new little sound world on the harp, which, on reflection, I thought I'd heard somewhere before anyway. Now I new how to imitate that sound.
Now, I've done some serious typing!
@Jim Rumbaugh : 3rd and 4th are called the minor because of the flattened 3rd. It's just there. In cross-harp you can play the major 3rd if you want, as you know. The terms 'major' and 'minor' just come from the latin meaning greater and lesser, and they refer specifically to the 3rd.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Preston
244 posts
Mar 28, 2009
4:27 AM
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I appreciate everyone who decided to hash this out with me, I know theory can be boring. I like to think there is a reason they called it Music "Theory" and not Music "rules that can never be broken and must be followed".
@Jim:
I have to disagree with your surmation of why 3rd and 4th position are minor. I am talking STRICTLY the blues scale here. Root, flat3rd, fourth, flat fifth, fifth, flat seventh, and octave.
The D blues scale goes as follows:
R=D 3b=F 4th=G 5b=Ab 5=A 7b=C Octave=D
This is true in cross harp, third position, 12 position, whatever, these notes don't change in the blues scale no matter what position you play it in. So if we are going to call cross harp and 12th position major, we can't call 3rd position minor and blame it on the notes that are in it.
@Mickil: Every blues scale has a flatted 3rd. You can play the major third in any position too. In 3rd position it is two draw half step bend, 5OB and 9blow bend. So I guess I don't understand where you are coming from either.
But I do appreciate both of you guys trying to help!
@German: I think you and I think alot alike.
So what I'm getting out of this thread is that nobody else knows the answer to my question either. I guess I will just go back to playing the damn thing!
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 4:55 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
20 posts
Mar 28, 2009
6:02 AM
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@Preston
( definition: minor 3rd note is a note 1 1/2 steps up from the root note .a.k.a. flatted third)
( definition: major 3rd note is a note 2 steps up from the root note .a.k.a. major third)
Do not confuse the term "flatted third" with "bending the third note"
You said,"So if we are going to call cross harp and 12th position major,"
I believe 2nd position is called "major" because if you play WITH NO BENDS OR OVERBLOWS, the 3 draw is a major 3rd. As per your own description of a blues scale, you said we must bend the 3 hole draw.
You also said,"You can play the major third in any position" Yet, if you start a scale on 4 draw and work your way up scale( 3rd position ) the major third is not there unless you overblow / bend or do something I don't do. The 3rd note, the 5 draw, is a minor third. Since the minor scale comes so easy, I call 3rd position a minor position. I can not play a major scale in 3rd position.
The same can be said for the 4th position. As you start on 6 draw and work your way up, the third note is a flatted third. Therefore, I call the 4th position a minor position.
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rabbit
8 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:10 AM
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http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz.html
Information galore!
I gotta credit another guy on
another forum for giving me this.
Near top of page under 'Chords and Scales'
click on 'Chords to Scales' and you'll get
a virtual piano (shows guitar fretboard, ignore it)
and you can hear relationships.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 7:12 AM
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SMaxwell
19 posts
Mar 29, 2009
4:00 PM
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Steve Baker's Blues playalong book vol 1 has a section in the back on theory for harp. I understood most of it, so that says something.
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jnorem
9 posts
Jan 30, 2014
7:25 PM
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I understand that this thread is five years old. I only want to add my view on this topic.
Music theory isn't any kind of big deal, not at all. But it's really good to know, because it's good to know what you're doing on your instrument.
It doesn't change anything. You apply music theory to the situation at hand.
When I was a kid playing in the Road Band, I'd hear the guys talking about this chord and that chord. It bugged the hell out of me to not know what they were talking about. Eventually I bought a basic music theory book and I just learned it on my own. If you have a theory book and regular access to a piano, you'll have it down in no time at all.
Why limit yourself? BB King used to study very advanced scale books, he even has some John Coltrane transcripts. I've heard that he'd be working on that stuff backstage before he went on.
I went on to study music at a conservatory in New York; I wanted to play jazz on the chromatic harmonica. La de dah. But you don't need to take it that far. What's in a basic theory book is all you'll ever need, trust me.
Music theory is easy. All musicians should be conversant in music theory. It doesn't affect what you play in any way. It's knowledge, and isn't knowledge a good thing?
Just my opinion.
Last Edited by jnorem on Jan 30, 2014 7:30 PM
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Baker
367 posts
Jan 31, 2014
2:01 AM
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As this post has resurfaced I thought I'd add a link to Michael Rubin's excellent YouTube lessons on theory as it relates to the harmonica – for anyone who is interested in getting into it – www.youtube.com/user/michaelrubinharmonic/videos
Last Edited by Baker on Jan 31, 2014 2:02 AM
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