Tonis
3 posts
Feb 21, 2009
2:35 PM
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Anybody here, who has a Hohner Blues Harp and can overblow 4 and 5? I can overblow 4 and 5 on my SP20 in C very easily, but the Blues Harp in A, gets veeeery squeaky and non overblowy... Is it the harp, or is it the player, that's gone wrong?
Last Edited by on Feb 21, 2009 2:36 PM
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mickil
41 posts
Feb 21, 2009
3:51 PM
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I'm no great expert on OBs, but I remember Jason Ricci saying on one of his vids that it's easier to OB on higher harps.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Chris Jones
29 posts
Feb 21, 2009
4:15 PM
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Tonis,
I haven't tried OB's yet, but from posts I've seen you may need to lower the gaps on your Blues Harp. I doubt if it's you since you can do them on your SP20. There are many thread here that may help, try the search feature or try www.overblow.com
Thanks
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oldwailer
521 posts
Feb 21, 2009
6:44 PM
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You need Preston here--Hey, Preston! He is a good overblower and I believe, at last report, his harp of choice is the blues harp. . .
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Preston
146 posts
Feb 22, 2009
12:27 PM
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Hey Oldwailer, thanks for remembering me! Tonis,
No, unfortunately it is more than likely a combination of your technique and the setup of the harp. Unless you have been overblowing for a long time and are certain it isn't your technique it could be the setup, but it deffinetely isn't the model of harp or key.
I do agree that the lower the harp the harder the overblow, but I have a blues harp in "Low G" that I can overblow everything, even the 1 hole. I bought a big river in Low D and I managed a 6OB right out of the box (I did burst a couple of blood vessels in my forhead attempting it, but the overblow did eventually pop).
The Big Rivers have the same reedplates as the Blues harps. It is part of the Hohner modular system. And as you will find on www.tenhole.com, Tinus Koorn (the same man who runs www.overblow.com) uses all modular system reedplates. So keep messing with the gaps and a little embossing and you will be on your way to overblowing and overdrawing on that blues harp.
Good luck!
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Tonis
4 posts
Feb 22, 2009
6:58 PM
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Thank you all guys. I have been searching for that perfect gap but i find almost impossible to choke the blow reed. Ill give embosing another go, see if that will change anything...
Ive bought my first harp two months ago, so i aint the master of OB, But i manage to get 4,5,6 on the sp20 very easy. I love the dirty sound blues harp makes, and really look fw to get those OB down... :-)
Tonis
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KingoBad
24 posts
Feb 22, 2009
7:40 PM
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don't forget to gap your draw holes as well... you might just be a little leaky...
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Tonis
5 posts
Feb 23, 2009
9:27 AM
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Sure thing! :)
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Preston
149 posts
Feb 23, 2009
9:35 AM
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I also want to add that you have to adjust your embouchure for every harp. As you go lower in keys, it is a little bit harder to achieve the overblow. Muscle memory will only get you so far with overblows when practicing on multiple keys of harps, and then you need your ear to get you the rest of the way.
If I am playing an up tempo song, I get real nervous about the 4 overblow on my A harp because it tends to squeal on me if I don't hit it just right at fast speeds. A slow, laid back blues song I'm alot more fearless. And I almost never play fast on my G harp when I'm planning on using overblows, but that's just me. I'm sure Levy, Gussow, Michalek and definetely Ricci don't have those kinds of issues.
My C harp is the harp of choice when I'm going off on a fast song and I know I'm going to be overblowing.
And like King said, adjust both reeds at the same time. Be sure to check out www.overblow and www.tenhole.com for pictures of all Tinus' tips. I put a small dab of beeswax on the rivets of all my harps because I get that horrible squeal that you describe. I believe the term is "tortional vibration", which I have no clue what tortional means. I think I'll go look it up when I'm done here. I think, if I'm not mistaken that Gussow said or wrote somewhere that he didn't typically get that squealing sound. But, well....he's Gussow and we're not!
I'm thinking about it while I'm typing and I wanted to clarify something else. If I don't apply wax, I can still overblow without the squeal, but only if it is a quick note. It is when I try to wail, bend it up, or hang on the note for any extended beats that the squeal occurs.
Last Edited by on Feb 23, 2009 9:36 AM
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tookatooka
134 posts
Feb 23, 2009
3:38 PM
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That tortional squeel is caused by the reed twisting along its length at high speed instead of going up and down. If you take your cover plates off and play with a mirror you'll see what I mean. The wax would dampen the end of the reed at the rivet end like a shock absorber.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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Tonis
6 posts
Feb 24, 2009
11:56 AM
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I just can't get that 4 blow reed to choke... Tried to emboss, it helped a bit, fiddled with the gaps for almost an hour... I just cant get it. I have read about waxing the rivets. How to apply wax? just put it there, or to drop a drop from burning candle?
Last Edited by on Feb 24, 2009 12:07 PM
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Preston
154 posts
Feb 24, 2009
12:22 PM
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Problem doesn't sound like wax on rivet end will fix it. Wax stops high pitch squeels during the overblow. It doesn't help in producing one.
No, you don't need heat or a candle. Buy beeswax from the hardware store. Usually in the paint department, but could be in nuts and bolts too. Just shave a little bit off and roll around in your fingers until the friction and your own body heat makes it plyable. Then push it onto the rivet. Don't need to use too much.
Practice makes perfect, and you may need a couple tries before you get it right. Don't get too much on the reed itself or you will mess with the pitch. If you mess up, use a hair dryer on high to melt the wax off so you can start again. But the wax is a bitch to get completely off, so make sure you hold it rivet end down so the melted wax flows away from the reed.
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Buddha
73 posts
Feb 24, 2009
6:33 PM
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you guys need to learn how to play with constant back pressure. Your tone will increase and all of these little issues with squealing will go away. I can play any harp without squealing. I can also make any hole on any harp squeal. It's about control but to have control, you have to have support and the support comes from back pressure.
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Preston
155 posts
Feb 25, 2009
5:17 AM
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I was afraid someone was going to mention that. Tinus Koorn is the only one I've heard of putting wax on the rivet end. I've never heard anyone talk about one of their custom harps having that. I read on of Pat Missin's articles where he also mentioned a small amount of fingernail polish as a substitute for wax, but other than that no-one seemed to be mentioning it.
Damn it, now I've got something else I have to work on.
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Zhin
125 posts
Feb 25, 2009
8:44 PM
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Great topic guys!
Recently I've been learning OB's too about 2 months ago. I discovered that all my Lee Oskars and Hohner Blues Harp MS harps squeeked too much but the Marine Bands and Special 20's did not.
I was on the Harmonicaspace chat one day and caught Jason Ricci and Winslow Yerxa on it. I asked them about this and the gist of it is that the generally Seydals and Hohner MB/SP20/GM's are the ones that OB really well. Most other models will be difficult to articulate and can be very impractical.
So I decided to switch to the MB and SP20 which are hard to come by in Malaysia. I've learned to love and appreciate the tone of these harps and how much easier it is to OB them stock and even bend the OB's. (on blow 4/5/6).
But, as most of you know it is such an expensive thing to do for anyone who's just begun their journey.. replacing all keys and what not... not to mention I haven't been able to find a lot of keys for the MB/SP20 here. Most of them are C, D, and A.
Out of desperation I have decided to try a few things I learned from the overblow.com site.
I have successfully stopped all my Hohner Blues MS harps from squeeking by applying quick dry nail polish. You got to be very careful not to leak too much around the sides or you'll have trouble sealing the harp when the blow reedplate mates with the comb.
I'm very happy with this simple mod. I can now sound the OB's with no squeek AND make them squeek if need be. It's a lot more easier to sustain, vibrato, and bend.
I still prefer the tone of the MB/SP20's tho but at least now I have spares that can OB so I can practice them on all keys and also keep them as backups when I gig.
I will however resume replacing all my main harps to SP20's though.
Thanks for the info guys and I hope this helps!
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Patrick Barker
185 posts
Feb 27, 2009
5:55 PM
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Buddha- thanks for the advice, suddenly after thinking about pressure my 6 hold OB stops squealing. Still gotta work on stopping the 5 from squealing.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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Violin Cat
31 posts
Feb 28, 2009
2:22 AM
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hey Those new Blues harp (MS's) Don't overblow well at all! It has to do with the width and leangth of the reed. The Old ones with nails are fine. The new ones are as bad as lee oskar or some Seydels for overblowing...The best thing to do wax, nail polish aside and all is just get a marine band or a special 20 or something or better yet a Suzuki Fire breath and then do the wax deal (If you have too) Those MS harps have never been any good for overblowing...
Hope that helps.
J
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superchucker77
136 posts
Feb 28, 2009
1:18 PM
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I disagree violin cat. I have blues harps in the keys of C and A and they both overblow just fine. They are the new MS blues harps, mostly unmodified except for a little gapping. I would not discredit them so much as to say that they are as bad as Lee Oskars for over blowing, for they sound much fuller and do not squeal for me. I also own two seydel blues soloists and an 1847 in the keys of D, A, and A respectivly. They also are good harps for overblowing in my openion. Marine Bands and Special 20s are very good harmonicas for overblows, but I would not put the hohner blues harp and the seydel harmonicas down in that respect.
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Brandon Bailey
Superchucker77's Youtube
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Buddha
76 posts
Feb 28, 2009
2:43 PM
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I think the MS series and SP20 are mostly crap. I have no issues OB'ing any of them BUT there are certain nuances that aren't available on SP20 or the MS harps. I think it has to do with the reed plate design and how far the reeds are away from the mouth.
IMO - The MB and GM are the best Hohner diatonics. The seydels are OK and the 1847 is a very good out of the box harmonica but there is no reason to buy one best Custom Harps are SOOOO much better and can be had for not much more money.
I know longer have an opinion on the Firebreath. I was sent a pre-production model and it was one of the best harps I've ever played. When I asked if the reeds had been set up the person who sent it to me told yet another radical lie that it wasn't.
The firebreath harps I've tried since were not as good.
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2009 2:45 PM
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harpwrench
19 posts
Feb 28, 2009
3:12 PM
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There's a huge difference between a "harp that overblows", and an "overblow harp". You can slam the gaps on any decent quality harp and play some OB notes, but IMO Marine Bands and Golden Melodies that are properly set up are the best choices for dynamic OB/OD playing in a real musical situation, without compromising normal playing.
Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2009 3:38 PM
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Zhin
131 posts
Feb 28, 2009
8:01 PM
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Cat, you got a good point there about avoiding the wax and nail polish if we can. I find sometimes it changes the tuning of the reed and I have to retune them which is always a #$%^@. Not to mention the risk of messing up how the blow reedplate mates with the comb making the harp very leaky. I use the nail polish on all my blues harps though because I'm gonna replace them anyways and at least I have a spare set that can OB in case I blow out a MB/SP20 in the same key.
Buddha, I have noticed it's slightly "easier" to OB my MB than my SP20's... I guess it wasn't my imagination after all. Thanks for the tip.
Personally I find that after the nail polish "mod" on the Blues Harp MS they OB easier than the MB/SP20. But the tone is a little less to be desired to me... I actually find it easier to practice OB bends with them as well. What's up with that?
Looks like I'll be buying MB's from now on. But man... I REALLY hate those nails and the swelling comb BS...
Thanks for sharing your professional opinions guys. Much appreciated. Keep them coming!
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Last Edited by on Feb 28, 2009 8:03 PM
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Preston
162 posts
Mar 01, 2009
7:05 AM
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Interesting that we have two professional harp players that don't care for the MS system harps, yet that's all that Tinus Koorn uses. He plays all songs in all keys on a C Diatonic set of MS replacement reeds.
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Preston
245 posts
Mar 30, 2009
6:10 AM
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O.K. fellas, I just finished hot-rodding my Marine Band key of A last night. It looks and plays awesome. Maybe my finest creation so far! I owned a couple of MBs back when I first started, before I got into tweaking and customizing, but I felt the Blues harp was the way to go for me.
Why I was originally more attracted to the Blues Harp?
1. Wider from front to back, I felt like I could get a good grip on it while still getting it all the way in my mouth.
2. Comb already factory sealed
3. Interchangeable reed plates, so you don't have to buy a whole new harp.
4. Cover plates are beefier/better supported so you can't crush them as easy as a MB.
I still feel that the Blues Harp is a good little harp, and I will not be running out and replacing all of my harps immediately, but I will probably buy MB's from now on when it is time to replace one. I have to say I am very impressed by the Marine Band. I put it head to head with my Blues Harp and found I liked the Marine Band better.
It had great volume, and overblows like a dream. Speaking of, I did not put any wax or nailpolish on the MB what-so-ever, and I can sustain overblows, use vibrato, and bend the pitch slightly without the squeel.
I still feel the downside to the MB is the width from front to back. But again, that's going to vary from person to person. I stick that thing so far in my mouth I don't have any room left to hold it with a "Left hand C" cup style, so I have to employ the Adam Gussow amplified two thumbs up cup style.
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Buddha
192 posts
Mar 30, 2009
6:19 AM
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tinus koorn isn't a player in my book. I applaud his efforts but he gives the OB haters lots of ammo. It's nothing but an exercise in arrogance to play all music on one diatonic harmonica. That said, he has his theory together and would sound miles better IF he played in appropriate positions, otherwise he'll always sound like **** and SOUND matter more than correctly played notes.
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Preston
246 posts
Mar 30, 2009
6:45 AM
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I think I agree with you on your stance on Tinus' playing, but the point of this was MS sytem reeds vs. MB reeds. I was intrigued by the fact the guy who made it his goal to play all positions on one key harp chose to do it with a set of reedplates two professional harp players consider inferior.
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Buddha
195 posts
Mar 30, 2009
6:47 AM
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right, and he's an inferior player.
I TRUST by now that you've received my emails on another subject.
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harpwrench
24 posts
Mar 30, 2009
5:34 PM
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Preston you might like the Golden Melody. It shares the same reeds with the Marine Band, combined with a "deeper" profile than the Blues Harp (front to back). Might make a good combo for you.
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DaDoom
60 posts
Mar 31, 2009
12:02 AM
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@ Tonis
The first harp I ever bought was a Hohner Blues Harp in C. Believe it or not it OBs perfectly on holes 4-6. No squeaking or anything. All I did as far as I can remember is re-gap the blow reeds.
I'm still on a quest to find the best out-of-the-box harp and here's what I can tell you after 1.5 years of buying and testing harps:
- if you want a good out-of-the-box harp for OBs get a Suzuki Firebreath (MR-500). The reeds are already set up for the technique and it actually works. I have one in Eb and am very satisfied with it. I ordered a lower key (Bb I think) just to see if the lower keys are as good as the high ones.
- If you are willing to re-gap the reeds a bit and want to spend less get a Golden Melody. I have one in D and with little work it OBs even better than the Suzuki (very consistent, no squeaking even when sustaining the OB).
I just received my Suzuki Mouth Organ (HA-20) and it seems to be good for OBs too. Hole 4 is still a little bitchy but I just got it yesterday so it may get better :)
In any case avoid Lee Oskars.
I'm re-discovering the Hohner Blues Harp btw. The only thing negative about the harp is that the reed plates stick out quite a bit over the comb which makes it a bit uncomfortable to play - I still don't see how I could fix that. But the tone is just great and the harp is responsive.
Another thing I've learned: it's definitely not easy to judge and compare out-of-the-box harps. Even within the same brand and model the quality fluctuates quite a bit. As Adam says in one of his videos if you buy 10 Marine Bands one will be great, five will be good, one will be crappy etc.
Also to do a fair comparison you would have to buy different harps in the same keys. You just can't compare two harps if one is in D and the other in low G.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2009 12:04 AM
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Preston
248 posts
Mar 31, 2009
5:32 AM
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Harpwrench:
Thanks, I might give one of those a try. But then again I have a thing for wood combs. Not sure why, I just prefer them over plastic. I've had a special 20, a Big River, and a Busman Delta Frost, and I just prefer the wood comb of the BH and MB.
DaDoom:
Take a drill bit that is just one size larger than the reed plate screw holes, and one size larger than than the cover plate screw holes and drill it out. This should be enough to slide the reedplates back to flush with the front of the comb. It's how I do it to all of my BHs, and I haven't noticed any more air leakage from the process.
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boris_plotnikov
15 posts
Feb 09, 2010
11:13 AM
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Sorry for posting in older topic but I wondered about such different experience.
In my experience all current MS harp are not good for overblow.
Golden Melody is great yes. MarineBand too, but I dislike it's comb and covers.
Special 20 is as great as Golden Melody for me. I like both.
My two seydel 1847 (classic G and Bb) even worse on overbends than Hohner MS, I'm waiting for another silver version to try, but my hopes are not too big.
I have to mean. GM, Sp20, MB, 1847, MS all after embossing, arking and gaping, not out of the box.
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Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2010 11:28 AM
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