Kingley
187 posts
Jul 05, 2009
9:56 AM
|
I have just been watching Adams latest video where he reviews "Back to Back" the new CD by Brendan Power and PT Gazell.
This got me to thinking why don't more people play half valved harps?
It apparently negates the need for overblows and still gives you the ability to play chromactically.
Anyone have any views on the pros and cons of half valved harps?
|
KC69
107 posts
Jul 05, 2009
10:37 AM
|
I had the pleasure of meeting PT Gazell last month at the Buckeye Harmonica Festival. I not only sat in on his class about valved harps, I was fortunate enough to take PT and Jimi Lee to dinner one evening. I also bought the new CD with Brendan.
All of that a side. My local instructor(mostly country/bluegrass melodic)also took PT's class. he was afraid if he went valved he would have to completely re-learn the harmonica. Last week he bought a Suzuki valved harp and he just loves it.
It allows him to blow bend the lower chambers and draw bend the upper chambers. He know has so many more notes at his access and did't have to re-learn anything. before he would use two harmonicas on some songs to get the notes he needed. Now the one valved harp is all he need. My local instructor(Frank Bard) is in his mid 60s, 2 time buckeye and european champ on melodic diatonic harmonica and he is sold on the valved harp.
As I said he is not a blues player. It would be interesting to hear opinions from a true blues player.
|
Buddha
774 posts
Jul 05, 2009
11:18 AM
|
Its HARD!!!
I worked up some harps for PT and the only way to get them right was to learn how to play his style with valves.
Its cool that all of the notes bend but where the troubles come in is hitting a bend straight on. That's easy on the regular holes that we all bend but try that on blow 2 or blow 5 or draw 7 etc... not easy and then try to do it with speed.
I think the overall sound is more consistent than using OBs however for me, it might as well been an alter-tuned harp that was tossing my brain around. The Bb is not 6OB its 7D.
You have to have perfect resonance for each note to get it right, then again you have to have that for OBing as well.
I called PT a crazy Mother F**** for playing like that and he says the same about the way I play.
So over all, if you're just starting out, it may be a very good way to go especially if you want consistency of sound. I feel it lacks the punchiness of a regular diatonic.
Also one thing about PTs harps, the valves are not regular valves and I am not allowed to say anything more about them. Valved harps in general are a PITA because they get sticky. The valves that PT uses don't stick.
|
ElkRiverHarmonicas
77 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:08 PM
|
I don't know what valves PT uses and I generally reserve my chromatic playing for chromatics. There is a felt-type material that valves are made of that doesn't stick. That's not to say they don't have problems, mainly they have to have a good bit of room on all sides, especially on long reeds, otherwise, they can fall in the slot.
But I do like half valve my Paddy Richters, which I typically play in fourth position. Valves on a diatonic are about 1/10 as problematic as chromatic valves, reason being the valves you always have trouble with on a chromatic are those on the outside. On a diatonic, the longer valves are all inside, the ones outside are on the high register.
IT might just be I"m a drier player, but I've never had any issue with valved diatonics. A former student of mine had some trouble pretty quickly, so I suppose it varies.
My favorite harp is the Paddy tuned made circa 1915 Seydel Bandmaster I put an American Chestnut comb on. It is half valved in the upper register only. It's nice to be able to hit draw and blow bends on the same hole up there.
|
Andrew
403 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:16 PM
|
Are you guys talking about a Koch or something different?
I think there was a thread on the Koch a while back, but I've forgotten what was said about it.
|
Buddha
778 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:20 PM
|
PT plays Seydel 1847's with a new kind of valve that is currently only available to a couple of players in the world.
|
Kingley
188 posts
Jul 05, 2009
1:36 PM
|
Andrew,
No we are talking about harps like the Suzuki MR350V.
Which are half valved diatonics as played by PT Gazell and Brendan Power.
|
ElkRiverHarmonicas
79 posts
Jul 05, 2009
2:11 PM
|
Buddha, I think I know the valve you are talking about and it's just now available to the public, but you have to buy a Saxony to get it. Seydel has been making their own valves inhouse for some time. There was talk, for quite a while about this new valve they had come up with that wouldn't stick. It's kind of dimpled like a golf ball on the reedplate side, which decreases the surface area touching the reedplate and gives the valve some extra lift just outside the reedslot.
It was made specifically for their new Stainless Steel reed chromatic, the Saxony and I got a closer look at it when the first Saxonies came in that I had ordered for customers.
They announced that they were coming out with this steel reed chrom back around early March or so. So I'm thinking back then, OK, finally I'll see this windsaver. But in the promo photo, where the covers were off, they made DAMN SURE the windsaver wasn't in the pic, they were willing to let folks look at their slots, etc., but not that windsaver until the actual harmonica came out.
|
gene
210 posts
Jul 05, 2009
10:56 PM
|
I had valves on my Suzukis, but I took them off because they rattle...and stick.
|
Kingley
189 posts
Jul 06, 2009
2:04 AM
|
Well it's gotta be worth a try I figure.
So I think I'll valve up one of my old Marine Bands and see what it's like.
|
MrVerylongusername
390 posts
Jul 06, 2009
4:39 AM
|
I know that chrom players take time to warm their instruments before playing, to minimise valve sticking problems. I guess the same principle applies to half-valved diatonics, but it's something you don't see discussed much when the subject of half valving comes up.
|
The Gloth
208 posts
Feb 03, 2010
8:04 AM
|
I just bought my first half-valved diatonic yesterday (a suzuki promaster), and I really like it. I wanted to try one of those since I discovered their existence (thanks to Adam's YT lessons and to this forum), because I'm reluctant to learn overblowing : the work it takes to make them sound properly, and the fact that you need to gap your harp before that, discouraged me.
Yet, I just gave a little try to the HV harp, I'm far from mastering it's sound but I already manage to bend almost every note available. It sounds great for blues, it gives more color to the notes in general. The blow notes are more consistent I think, even without bending. To blow bend the lower notes is not easy, specially to control it, but the draw bends on the upper notes are great !
I'm gonna test it in rehearsal with the band tonight, I'll tell you about.
|
ZackPomerleau
647 posts
Feb 03, 2010
8:36 AM
|
Half valve? Does this means holes 1-5?
|
The Gloth
209 posts
Feb 03, 2010
8:45 AM
|
No ; it means that, for each hole, it's either the blow reed or the draw reed that is valved. The pupose is to allow blow bends on the 1-6 holes ans draw bends in the 7-10.
So I think (I don't have the harp with me right now) that in holes 1-6 the draw reeds are valved, and in the holes 7-10 it's the blow reeds. Unless it's the opposite...
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 8:48 AM
|
isaacullah
655 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:05 AM
|
Hey Chris, I don't think that the ultrasuede valves are any kind of secret. PT has posted info about it on his own site. Plus he and Brendan Powers and Vern Smith and others have posted widely about it at Harp-l and Slidemiester. They've even responded to my inquires and I'm a total unknown to them. I have lot's of info that they have given me about where to source the material, what type/weight to get, how to cut the valves out, and how to adhere them. I've already posted some of this info in the past (maybe two months ago?) on this forum and at harmonicaspace. You can find my posts on the subject in an archive search. Plus you can find my interaction with Vern and Brendan in the harp-l archives.
~Isaac
----------
------------------
The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 9:07 AM
|
jonsparrow
2038 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:05 AM
|
what the hell is a valve?
----------
|
ZackPomerleau
650 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:07 AM
|
It's like a strip of paper or something like that that creates a chamber for each reed.
|
isaacullah
656 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:08 AM
|
jon... Google is your friend... ;) Pat Missin's website is a good place. So is the Chromatic Harmonica Reference site.
----------
------------------
The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
|
jonsparrow
2040 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:14 AM
|
well ya i have a chromatic harp an i know what they are on that, but how would you put that on a diatonic?
----------
|
The Gloth
211 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:16 AM
|
There's an explanation by Brendan on this link :
http://www.hunterharp.com/bpower1.html
|
ZackPomerleau
652 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:16 AM
|
I'm not sure of the process, I assume you just put them on the reed, but I've never used one.
|
saregapadanisa
115 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:20 AM
|
I own two MR350V that I bought dirt cheap, second hand. That means that the valves are not in pristine condition, yet I find the sound of those extra notes much more consistent than OBs (maybe my technique is at stake here, I don't know).
I don't play them very often but didn't find it a great deal to get good intonation. Apart from the extra notes, it allows some neat tricks, like bent attack on 4 and 6 blow when playing 2nd pos.
Anyway, that's worth to explore. It seems that every valved player has its own recipe about the valves, some using teflon cooking paper. Valves are easy to experiment with, and easy to get rid of if you don't like.
|
isaacullah
657 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:27 AM
|
You glue them onto the reedplate on the opposite side from the reed. It blows out when you play the reed normally (ie. blowing on a blow reed), but clamps down when you breath the other way (ie. it clamps down on the blow reedslot when you draw). this way it prevents the interaction of the two reeds and lets you get single reed bends (DIFFERENT from OB or regular bending). Half valving a diatonic only does this on one breath direction for each hole (as opposed to chro where both reeds are valved). Half vaaved diatonics have the higher note reed in each slot valved. (ie. all draw reeds from 1-6, and all blow reeds from 7-10.) This way, you can do ALL the normal bending, but you can't OB or OD. Instead, you can do single reed "valved" bends on the blow 1-6 and the draw 1-7. These bends will all go at least a semitone.
----------
------------------
The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
|
jonsparrow
2041 posts
Feb 03, 2010
9:32 AM
|
thanks for that link gloth
----------
|
walterharp
214 posts
Feb 03, 2010
1:38 PM
|
you guys play xb-40? a bit bigger but all notes bend. it is really fun to play. The bends are really bends because there is a sympathetic reed with each read, so the tone is more like bent notes on a diatonic than bending a chrom with windsavers
|
Diggsblues
128 posts
Feb 03, 2010
6:17 PM
|
Valves can wear out and need to be warmed up.
They stick to and buzz till you warm it up.
|
nineveh_harp
43 posts
Feb 03, 2010
8:27 PM
|
I play a valved Suzuki Promaster and I LOVE it! If you want to transition to a half-valved harp, you must be REALLY good at blowbends to get all the notes, but overall you will have a greatly increased expressiveness in the blow notes on hols 1-6 and draw notes 7-10. However, you also will have to deal with the danged valves wich are a royal pain unless you get special ones. I think it's worth a try!
-Sam
BTW, on my half-valved A harp I can bend blow 1 all the way down from A to F# with some care. I've gotten it down to F, but I couldn't hold it steady. The point is this: EXTREME VERSATILITY!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 8:33 PM
|
