samcortex
1 post
Oct 25, 2009
11:15 PM
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I heard that some of the Suzuki reeds are made of phosphor bronze alloy. I wonder if there is any chance that they release phosphor after a while or do any harm to human health. Are they safe even after using for a long time? Can you please give me some info in this regard.
Thank you
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Aussiesucker
405 posts
Oct 26, 2009
12:39 AM
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From my understanding if in solid form it is not dangerous. The danger is in the dust and fumes whilst working with the material. Probably best to take precautions when working on the reeds directly.
I have been using Suzuki Harps for over 3 years on a daily basis and I find them OK.
I have very severe allergic reactions to nickel which was used years ago by all the major manufacturers. I read on Harponline website that the new Manji has nickel plated reed plates however I would doubt this to be so as ca 10% of the population have a nickel allergy.
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Ioannes
7 posts
Oct 26, 2009
12:49 AM
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Aussiesucker is right - in solid form it is not dangerous. Also, you have to be in direct contact with certain material (e.g. nickel) to trigger reaction - so mouthpiece, comb and cover plates (in some models reed plates as well) made of nickel (or presumably phosphor bronze) could be an issue, but as long as you do not lick or chew reeds themselves, you should be safe...
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samcortex
2 posts
Oct 26, 2009
12:51 AM
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Are brass reeds safer or not? Can they be harmful too?
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samcortex
3 posts
Oct 26, 2009
2:13 AM
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@Adnrew@ thanks for the reply. That's great. I hope the metallurgists help me out. As a matter of fact I ordered a bluespaster made by suzuki and my only concern is that it harms my nerves or skin or even lungs because of the phosphor-bronze reeds but many seems to use them and have no problem whats so ever.
So please two metallurgists in this forum, please please help me out here. Is phosphor-bronze harmful? Does it release any dangerous agent?
Thanks
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KingoBad
114 posts
Oct 26, 2009
5:59 AM
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I may be stepping out on a limb here, but shouldn't you ask a doctor instead?
If you add specific agents to phosphor bronze it does become EXTREMELY dangerous - JamesCottonendum for example, Adam-antium and LittleWalterium come to mind.
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Tuckster
244 posts
Oct 26, 2009
7:34 AM
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Well,I'm no metallurgist,but rocks and minerals are a hobby of mine. Phosphorus is an extremely reactive element.You'll never find pure phosphorus in nature,it always bonds with something else.Once bonded,it's locked in pretty tightly. Unless you add heat,you're not going to release it. They add small amounts of it to bronze to make it harder and less brittle.
Copper and zinc are in the vitamins I take every day. Unless you're consuming huge amounts,I don't see a problem.
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2009 7:36 AM
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samcortex
4 posts
Oct 26, 2009
7:42 AM
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@Tuckster@ Thanks for the tip. So it should be okay. Thanks a lot. It's clear that I won't expose my harmonica to heat. I was a little worried and with yours and others comments I feel much safer.
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Andrew
693 posts
Oct 26, 2009
8:08 AM
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That is an excellent point, Kingo, (or even the plastic comb) even if it was meant to be humerous. I was trying to think of a way of comparing beans with the tin they are in, but couldn't think of an easy way to put it!
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Bollocks, Wiglaf!
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2009 8:08 AM
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toddlgreene
60 posts
Oct 26, 2009
8:41 AM
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wow...after reading this thread, i'm thinking of getting a mouth condom or something...harmonicas are hazardous to my health!
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
www.myspace.com/harpboytodd
www.myspace.com/crescentcityharmonicaclub
www.myspace.com/am540
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MJ
54 posts
Oct 26, 2009
8:52 AM
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Life is toxic man. Once you are born, there is no way around it, you are going to die. Smell the roses but watch out for the thorns!
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Andrew
694 posts
Oct 26, 2009
9:30 AM
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My mother is allergic to silver. She discovered that when she bought some siilver ear-rings. Mouth condoms are called "dental dams". Dentists and lesbians use them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_dam
Anilingus with a dental dam - I think I'd rather play the harp! Or can you get harpes from that?
P.S. A friend just passed me this:
http://www.brazing.com/Pdf/MSDS/MSDS_PhosBronze_E.pdf
I can't be bothered to read it. Maybe you can.
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2009 9:36 AM
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Randy G. Blues
99 posts
Oct 26, 2009
9:54 AM
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Some brass alloys have lead in them. By definition, iirc, marine brass does not. I believe that someone on this forum mentioned that Hohner was getting some of their brass from China which should be of some concern to anyone playing Hohner harps that contain that (at least to say, it would be to me if I was playing them). maybe one of the customizers can do a lead test on some of the scrap or filings they have on hand...?
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toddlgreene
61 posts
Oct 26, 2009
10:12 AM
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Nah, no 'dental dams' for me(and I think I'll pass on the analingus, thanks)...Conan the Barbarian siad it right:'What doesn't kill you makes you stronger'.
Seriously, although harps sold new, by law, can't have been played before, this doesn't mean they are free from any machining dust, metal, wood or plastic fragments, etc...so it's a very good idea from a health perspective to take down and clean harps before playing them.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
www.myspace.com/harpboytodd
www.myspace.com/crescentcityharmonicaclub
www.myspace.com/am540
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2009 10:13 AM
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Aussiesucker
406 posts
Oct 26, 2009
4:35 PM
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There is a certain risk associated with just about anything and the risk should be minimal in using a modern harmonica from one of the main manufacturers?
If however, a major manufacturer, were to continue to use materials ie nickel or phosphor in a way that could cause health problems they would be exposed to very hefty litigation.
I started playing the harp over 50 years ago when nickel was used. I always believed I suffered from cold sores (herpes simplex) which every time I used a harmonica broke out. I always kept harmonicas in my bedside table and over the years eachtime I touched them the 'cold sores' would always reappear.
I have never suffered cold sores in my life as I only ,in the last 5 years, discovered due to purchasing a cheap copy watch in Asia that my wrist broke out in blisters exactly like I used to get on my lips. A jeweller first alerted me to the nickel problem. Jewellery with a nickel content & which is in contact with the skin cannot be sold in Australia.
I received an email from Hohner in Dec 2007 and quote "We are using mainly stainless steel material for our coverplates on harmonicas. Especially the 10 hole diatonic harmonicas have this nickle-free stainless steel material. Model Meisterklasse MS have chrome-plated brass covers; Model Cross HarpMS and Pro Harp MS have so called greblon coated black covers. This greblon coating is also used in the food industry and have no nickle inside. All other 10 -hole diatonic models using since around 3 years stainless steel coverplate material."
I no longer have a problem with the new harps that I use ie Hohners, LOs & Suzuki. But I am wary and steer clear of cheapies,little known brands, and brands that are made in countries lacking strong consumer protection.
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snakes
380 posts
Oct 26, 2009
4:41 PM
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Wow, I'm a Suzuki player. I hope there is no reaction with the reeds and bourbon. Heh-heh, other than the obvious.
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stewbone59
4 posts
Oct 27, 2009
7:32 AM
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It's great to hear all of the info on hazardous materials that could be used in harmonicas. I would like to know a little more about the chances of lead being used in the cheaper models made in China. Hohner's Hot Metal is a pretty good harp for the price, but you do have to worry about anything made in China.
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toddlgreene
64 posts
Oct 27, 2009
7:42 AM
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@ stewbone-especially any painted surfaces or embossed and painted surfaces, such as cover plates.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
www.myspace.com/harpboytodd
www.myspace.com/crescentcityharmonicaclub
www.myspace.com/am540
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Aussiesucker
412 posts
Oct 27, 2009
4:29 PM
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congaron > I have no problem with the stainless steel cover plates on LOs, Suzuki or Hohners. Hohner claim in an email that 'especially the 10 hole diatonic harmonicas have this nickle-free stainless steel material'.
I have read on a number of sites re the allergy that it's with ca 10% of the population but generally more prevalent in females because of jewellery they wear especially pierced earings. It's an insidious allergy ie it creeps up on you sometimes after years of exposure. The body absorbs and always retains it so that further exposure even years later will cause a flare up. It will not kill you ie its not dangerous but it's sure painful and it looks bad & you cannot play a harp until it clears up.
stewbone > yes steer clear of cheapies from emerging economies even if they carry logos by one of the reputable manufacturers. The cheap Suzuki 'Easy Rider' has nickel cover plates but on the other hand their little Folkmaster made in China is, I find, ok.
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Hoolines
10 posts
Oct 27, 2009
11:32 PM
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@Aussie@ Does it mean that you can't use the Suzuki Pipe Humming too? It has a nickel plated pipe cover! I wonder why with such a well-known allergy, Suzuki and some others still make their harmonicas using nickel!!! I wish they stop using nickel.
Does BluesMaster have any nickel?
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Aussiesucker
413 posts
Oct 28, 2009
12:18 AM
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Hoolines > have a look at Suzuki site where they list the materials:-
http://www.suzuki-music.co.jp/en/ehapharmonica.htm
I have been using Bluesmasters, Harpmasters, Promasters for at least 3 years ie no probs. I also have a Chromatix SCX48 & a couple of Tremolos SU21( they have stainless covers but get minimal play).
They still make and sell some models containing nickel which is for me a real no no. They probably only sell them in countries that don't have strong consumer protection laws otherwise they could have some expensive questions to answer?
I wouldn't be too concerned unless you experience a problem & its not as if it is life threatening. Also if you are a newbe you will for certain experience sore lips so don't interpret that as being an allergy.
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walterharp
97 posts
Oct 28, 2009
12:38 PM
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Back to the original question. This material safety sheet suggests that copper and tin dust (in all bronze) are the only things to worry about, so clean those plates after grinding before playing.. and the reeds after tuning. You need a good bit to be toxic.
http://www.ipmx.com/library/pdf/phosphor%20bronze%20c510,%20c511,%20c519%20etc..pdf
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Andrew
696 posts
Oct 28, 2009
2:56 PM
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Walterharp, am I misreading that pdf, or does it talk about copper and tin and yet nowhere mention phosphorus?
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Bollocks, Wiglaf!
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walterharp
99 posts
Oct 29, 2009
5:17 PM
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right, because those are the only two components in the alloy with known toxicity, if you look around there are lots of formulas for phosphor bronze. phosphorus is a minor component of all of them.
Some have lead but I assume those are not used for the reeds and did not post a safety sheet of that particular alloy for that reason, but other brass alloys can have some lead also, so not using phosphor bronze because of the reeds would not make sense, there is the same chance that any bronze would have lead.
probably the most inert for those that are worried would have to be the stainless ones seydel uses the 1847.
still, for those of us that grind or file reeds and reed plates, it is a good caution to dust everything off before drawing to avoid getting any bronze dust in your lungs, because that is somewhat toxic, and if you grind a lot of a reed plate to use respiratory protection while doing so
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Chinn
29 posts
Feb 25, 2010
11:33 AM
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Why would the continue to sell them if 10% is allergic?
I guess because 90% of the world is a pretty big market.
I was blessed with a ton of allergies. Some types of seafood are truly enough to kill me. Why then do they still sell seafood?
Just like washing fruit or other foods before eating them, it makes good sense to clean a harmonica before using it. That should minimize the opportunity for any foreign materials stowing away in your body.
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nacoran
1237 posts
Feb 25, 2010
2:14 PM
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Are the B-Rad covers nickel?
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