Hi all... I've been slowly working on assembling a very modest home studio to do a bit of amateur recording of some of my tunes. I don't have the space, budget, or wife for a full set of drums, so I've really been trying to figure out a way to get some percussion into my tracks. I've got a little software drum machine that I can (and do use), but I also would like to have a more "live" feel. Since I'm basically a one man band these days, I figured that some doing some foot percussion while playing would be cool. I've gone through several iterations of the traditional "stompbox" thing, but nothing I made sounded any good, either live or on recording. Until now, I think.
Have a listen to this track, and tell me what you think of the percussion sound. Please ignore the fact that I can't really keep the rhythm going well yet, and that I frequently loose my timing and groove as stumble around. I'm stomping with both feet and playing at the same time, and this is all new to me. In this track, I'm experimenting a little bit with timing, groove, and pattern (especially toward the end of the track) so I'd like to hear opinions on that as well... Mainly, I want to hear opinions on the quality of the percussion sounds. Do they pass muster?
Here are the details on the setup: The "drums" are two vintage "Concord" brand dynamic biscuit mics (originally for use with a reel-to-reel tape recorder). They are just lain on the carpet, and I'm lightly stomping them with my heels. They are fed into to my Alesis Multimix 8 mixer. The one that sounds like a "kick drum" has all the highs and mids cut, and the bass boosted. The one that sounds like a "woodblock" or "rimshot" has all the bass cut, the mids boosted, and the highs left at unity. They are panned about 60/40 in opposite directions to achieve a little stereo separation. The harp played in free air and is recorded by a pair of stereo-matched small diaphragm condensers (Behringer C2's) set in an x-y stereo pickup pattern. The mics are about a foot away from the back of the harp. The harp is tuned to my "modern pentatonic" layout (search the archives for details) and I'm playing in E. It started life as a Special 20, but now has a wood comb, and is also half-valved. I recorded it straight out of the Multimix to a two-track digital recorder. Light reverb (one of the Multimix's built in digital reverb FX) is applied to the whole recording.
So I like it. It's not drums but it has a finger snap sound and fits the playing style for this piece well. So, you need to buy Mrs. Issacullah a nice newdiamond then go get the foot drum. Now lets talk turkey, the Chevy in the photo? '63 ? And is it yours? Nice! ---------- "Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2013 1:21 PM
@lumpy: Yeah, that's a bit what I was worried about. I don't want it sounding like a metronome. I think it's the "woodblock" tone of the one mic that does that. Overall, I'm much more satisfied with the "kickdrum" sound than the other one... I'll try messing aound with the eq a bit to see if I can get it sounding less "woodblocky" like...
@Xharp: Ha! If I could afford diamond rings, then I could afford a nice electronic drumset too! :) To answer your question about the Chevy: I'm not sure. It's not mine. It belongs to my brother's wife's father, who lives out in Spokane... I love that photo though, 'cause it make me look so cool! That's one sexy car, for sure! ----------
Hey Isaacullah! I've been working on this one myself for a while now. Lumpy's right, a tad 'metronomey'! I reckon to truly get that bassy thud type sound, an air chamber of some sort is the only way to go. My friends and I have made a few stomp boxes, and only the ones that have a decent shape..ie..length breadth and height...truly cut it! You need to move some sort of air so as to provide resonance. My favourite was the old suitcase...but alas it is a nice old tweed job and I could see it not lasting very long. Currently I'm on the brink of going down the Cajon route, probably with a cable driven foot pedal. A bit pricey I know, but I feel it is the 'pro' way to go. I picked up an inexpensive Meinl foot tambourine for Xmas, and holding my harp with one hand, should be able to add bits of Cajon snare with the other hand! Surely one man band stuff employing all four limbs!
Thanks Rubes! Yeah, it sure takes a lot of experimenting. I've already drawn up some plans for how I might encapsulate these mics in a wooden box/platform in order to get a better sound out of em... Unfortunately, I've had to leave most of my woodworking tools back in AZ, so I have to come up with a low-tech solution... I've tried a lot of things over the last couple of years, so I hope this one works out!
I think it's a '62 Chevy. I didn't like the woodblock at the beginning but warmed up to it some. I'm sure it would be useful as a collateral effect or with songs with a little country feel. The other "drum" sound was more appropriate but somewhat muted. Makes me want to go back to the Farmer Footdrum page. My bass drum pedal and tambourine setup is collecting dust....as well it should.
I've been a drummer/percussionist - "amateur", I don't make my living at it, though I could in terms of being good enough - for over 50 years. Percussion is a much broader realm than people often think. What sounds "good" to one person - I'm not talking about the skill of the player, but the sound of the percussion - may sound not good to another. You can hit/strike/rub/flick, etc. anything and be playing percussion. Sticks, rocks, pots and pans, bells, blocks, tissue paper, books, tables, '62 Chevy's. You get the point. Does the sound you elicit sound good to you? Do you like its TONE? It's texture? It's character? It's ring or thud or splat or crack or crash or.........? My point is, I guess, I wouldn't let other people decide for you what sounds good. If you like the combination of sounds involved in what you're doing, that's that. I wouldn't be hesitant to stretch your own and other people's expectations, comfort zones, pre-conceived notions. This has something to do with creativity, after all. On the other hand, if you're trying to/wanting to play something strictly orthodox, you probably better get that drum set, or official foot drum, and learn how to play it in an orthodox manner.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2013 9:13 PM
you lose some of the metronome feel when you stop playing left, right, left, right. i remember adam's first attempts were very similar, and i suppose that is the natural way of learning this.
however- wouldnt you want something that isnt electrified? i mean, it limits you on where you can set up.
@FMWoodeye: Thanks! Yes, I also think I need to bring the "bassdrum" up in the mix a bit. I played around with levels a little bit, and in my headphones it sounded a little "boomy", so I lowered the volume. The recording sounds different though, so I think I need to bring it up a bit... I'm still letting the "woodblock" sound sink in... I'm not sure if it sounds too "fake" for me, or if it's a cool thing on it's own...
@harp-er: I was a drummer too, in my youth. In fact, all my "formal" musical education is for drums. I was a crappy drummer though. I didn't have the passion for it, I never practised, and I finally quit it after many years... It's kind of ironic to me that I'm now sort of getting back into it at this stage in music/life... I'm actually NOT after a traditional sound. At least, I don't think I am. I'm actually not sure what I'm really after. All I know is that this sound is closest to what I want. I'm not satisfied with the "woodblock" tone of my left foot in this setup, but I do like the "kickdrum" tone of my right foot. What I want is to have a very portable, low-profile, easily amplifieable, percussion setup that lets me let my feet do what they naturally want to do (stomp), and that gives me something between an 808/909 drum machine sound and "the real thing". This is definitely getting there... As for soliciting other's opinions: I'm on board with you! Ultimately, it's gonna be me who decides if I like it or not. But sometimes, another pair of ears (or ten) hears things that yours don't anymore, and that inspires you to change things for the better... That's what I'm after here...
@e-harp: Yeah, I hear you man... I've got a natural 1-2 stomp groove that it's really hard to break out of... Basically, I trained my feets to be a metronome, and I need them stop that, and to start to groove again! It's a bit like rubbing your belly and patting your head, but I know that I'll be able to get it if I keep workin' on it! As for acoustic vs electric: well, sort of, but not really. Foot drums like the Farmer that Adam plays are way too loud for an acoustic, unampped harp. They'd drown it out for sure. I've tried stompin on various unampped wooden boxes, but I haven't found anything that sounds better than just my feet on the ground... Ideally, I'd have something tht makes BOTH an acoustic AND and amped tone, and both tones would be good. But I have an amped street rig anyway, so having to go amped is no big deal for me... ----------
Hey Isaac, I agree with XHarp that it sounds good with that style, but might not be a good general solution. Have you tried the kick drum pedal and old soft-sided suitcase thing? I saw a busker doing this and it sounded really good. Micing it would be the trick. But you get a nice deep thump sound that your current setup is missing, and it would be useful for carrying your gear for busking too. ----------
@mr_so&so: I've not tried the suitcase thing... I've seen it before, and it does sound good... I might have to give it a try! I do want a "two foot" percussion rig though, so I'd have to have something for my left foot too... Maybe a tambourine or shaker... Lot's of possibilities... Thanks for taking a listen! ----------
I don't see/hear anything. I clicked yesterday, and I saw something (but then someone showed up and I didn't get a chance to listen.) Now there is a blank field.
By the way, THIS is what I'm thinking of. Low profile, easy to carry, easy to set up, played just by stomping your feet, different sounds from left and right foot, and apparently BOTH a good acoustic tone AND and amplified tone.
I've also experimented with home made stomp boxes and respect anyone that gives it a go. Bass on the track sounds ok but rimshot a bit bland for me. Being a fan of cigar box guitars I've tried using a Piezo pick up on various boxes, also a more expensive oyster pick up in a box with a drum snare screwed on the underside. Now looking to strap a tambourine to my foot or as the African boot stomp dancers do by stringing together coke bottle tops and tying same to your boot. You can pick up sound through the stomp box or via a cheap mic. I like the tinny sound for harp accompaniment , but anything is better than nothing if you are jamming solo.
That's a good idea to put a drum snare on the inside of the box... That's not something I'd thought of, but I imagine it would sound really good if you could get it working right! Great idea! Thanks! ----------
Servers be praised! I was worried it was another glitch in the forum software. :)
It's back up now. I like the rimshot sound better than the bass. The bass sounds kind of muddy.
We've been experimenting with some odd percussion lately. Last night we did a recording using a cardboard tube (I can't remember where I got it, it's much heavier than a paper towel tube) and a plastic tube (it came as part of a Skittles candy cane) and banging them on various other things around the apartment (which reminds me, I've got to make some cookies or something for my upstairs neighbor). We also used a wooded dowel swished through the air. The cardboard tube also doubles as a vocal effect machine. Singing through it gives a nice dirty sound!
Would a tap shoe (or just a tack in a shoe) and a board work? The suitcase idea for bass, I should point out, works particularly well if it's big enough to store your gear in when you are heading to and fro to shows.
@Nate: Thanks for the listen! Interesting that you like the rimshot more than the bass... At the moment, I'm on the opposite page... I still think the rimshot sounds TOO metronomy. I'm not against a somewhat "synthesized" sound, but I don't want it to sound cheesy, like pop music from the '80's. The sole of the shoe does make a big difference on tone. I could absolutely experiment there, and you might be on to something... We shall see!
@Rubes: While the idea of the "blues suitcase" is attractive to me too, I'm thinking that I want to avoid it for a few reasons: 1) even considering that I could load up some equipment in the suitcase, it's still a BIG thing to carry around, and to STORE in my smaaaaaall house somewhere, 2) It would still likely overpower a purely acoustic harp, so it would also have to be paired with an amped rig all the time, 3) I'd need to be playing a pedal and not just stomping. I really like the freedom of stomping, and don't want to give that up, and 4) it's just one tone, for one foot. Ideally, I want to be able to have different tones for each foot, and to be able to vary them depending upon how I stomp, and potentially on how I process the sound afterward...
I suppose I'm after a "holy grail" of sourts, but I want what I wants!!!! That box that the late Steve White is playing in the video above is the CLOSEST thing I have ever seen to what I want to have. I read that just before he died, he was working with AER percussion to make that box commercially available. Sadly, it seems that it never worked out, and as far as I can tell AER is out of business now, so it'll likely never be available, and we'll also likely never know the details of how the box was constructed... ----------
Well, looks like I was looking up the wrong AER company. It was AER Amplification, not AER percussion. This AER is still in business (http://www.aer-amps.com/index.php?lang=en), but no word on their website whether or not they'll ever put the Steve White stompbox into production.... ----------
How about playing the cajon with the harp in a rack [or a harp lock]. I can't find anyone else on Youtube who does this, If you do, please let me know.
---------- "Come on Brackett let's get changed"
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2013 2:17 PM
@lumpy: I've never played a cajon before, but I've always thought they were cool. Actually, after you posted, I did a little googling, and it turns out that there are things known as "lap cajons" that look like they are basically the same thing as a "stompbox", so perhaps one of these things might be what I'm after. I'll post a couple of vids of some of them below... Cool sounds!
I'm headed for this..... and this..... ....both hands with harp, and sometimes drop one for occasional cajon slaps and cowbell taps..... . ps.....can't see the Steve White box thing......
Very interesting thread! I've gone the homemade stompbox route. I've a friend who makes them, but his are too large and heavy for me so I made my own. They're easy and inexpensive to make, highly portable and very versatile. It's simple box made of plywood and 2x2's. You can make it any size you like but mine is 18"x24". (The originals are 3'x3' with 3/8" plywood as I recall.) It consists of a frame of 2x2's with 1/4" with the 2 18x24" pieces of plywood attached top and bottom with screws. The key is that the frame isn't complete, it has a 2" gap on one side to accommodate a mic' of your choice. You just slip the mic inside when you set up. I've found that putting feet on the bottom corners enhances the resonance of the bottom piece of plywood, especially if it isn't on a hard surface. The originals don't have feet, they just sit directly on the floor, so YMMV. I put a little brass handle on one side of it to make it easy to carry. I've tested a number of mic's and any vocal mic' will do. I use a cheap little old hi-impedance mic with a female pigtail so I can plug it in with any guitar cable. Other than the cost and ease of constuction, these stompboxes are very versatile. Looking at Steve White's I can see that he had two panels ostensibly to effect different tones with either foot. That's not really necessary with these simple little stompboxes if you get the plywood thickness right with respect to the dimensions of the panels (you want it to have a "give" to the plywood panels). The cool thing is that you can vary the tone of the "stomp" by stomping in different locations on the top of the box. At the edge, more muffled and subtle. In the center, more "bassy" and resonance. It's easy to stomp in one location with one foot and a different locstion with the other, yielding different tones with with either foot I play sitting down when using it. The other degree of freedom you have is the amp, effects or equalization settings you plug it through. I use it on channel 2 of my Silverface Princeton where I like to run it through a tube preamp/DI box or though any PA where I can eq' it however I like for the setting. Works great for me! Michelle
Here's a pretty innovative solution from a fellow harp player!
Rubes, this little thing looks EXACTLY like what you are after!
Here's another really cool and CHEAP solution a guy came up with. I think I'm DEFINITELY going to have to do this one...
@mlefree: Thanks for the details on your stompbox setup... that sounds along the lines of what I've been thinking about... I might have to build something like that and see what I can get. Perhaps using a couple different mics (like I'm doing in the above sound clip), and eq'ing them differently, and placing in them in different corners of the box might give me some cool flexibility! Thanks for posting! ----------
Take a scrap 2 x 10 or 2 x 12 and cut it to size - 1 1/2 size the length of your foot is pretty good. With a 35 mm forstner bit drill a hole in the board just under the spot where your foot strikes the board. Drill another hole or use a router to route the wire channel out to the side or back whatever you wish. Get yourself a cheapo piezo transducer from Radio Shack and wire that baby in. You can seal the transducer in with epoxy or sandwich it in place between two pieces of dense foam.
To get real elaborate you can make a passive notch filter to bleed out the treble but if you use the foam you really do not need this. Trick is to find the sweet spot. I usually take the piezo out of the plastic housing and tape it to the bottom of the board in different places to find a good spot. I put some filz on the top of and some anti slip foam on the bottom.
I just sold the thing for practically nothing. At least I got some dough out of it as I usually give my projects away.
@Bruce: Interesting idea to use foam or epoxy to sandwich the piezo disk in... I've only ever just glued it to the surface. I bet sandwiching it produces a deeper "thud", so I'm willing to bet that it sounds better than any of the ones I've made... I'll have to give that a try too... I'll need to buy a forstener bit, though... Thanks for sharing!!! ----------
