Jarno
1 post
Oct 04, 2013
1:12 PM
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Hi everybody,
New to the forum.
It has proved very helpful indeed!
My first topic. There are other threads about speakers but I didn't quite know where to put this question.
I have a 4x10 amp. It started life as an Earth Sound Research 100 Watt beast. It is extencively modified for harp. It is now 4x6L6 cathode biased and about 65 Watt.
It sounds good but lacks some good speakers.
The stock speakers are still in it, which are AlNiCo's.
They sound ok, but lack volume and punch.
I have ordered 2 WSG Veterans for that crunch.
I would really like some Lil'Buddies to go with them, for power and bass.
But...
Eminence only does 8 Ohm!!
And I need 4 x 16 Ohm.
Does anyone know of a suitable, and affordable speaker (like the lil'buddies) in 16 Ohm?
All help greatfully appreciated!
Thanks,
Jarno
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HawkeyeKane
2095 posts
Oct 04, 2013
1:21 PM
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Hi Jarno. Welcome to the forum.
Affordable? Well...only one that jumps to mind immediately might be a Weber Vintage ceramic. Maybe in the 10F150 series. Lots of options on cone construction, and you can get them in the 50W rating the Lil Buddy comes in. 16 ohm available. Yeah...that's prolly my vote. Peavey makes a Blue Marvel Classic 10" in 16 ohms as well. They're pretty inexpensive, but not as well constructed.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Oct 04, 2013 1:51 PM
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Rick Davis
2503 posts
Oct 04, 2013
3:43 PM
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jarno, do you have a schematic for the amp? Do you know the total ohm load it expects to "see?"
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Rick Davis
2504 posts
Oct 04, 2013
5:57 PM
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Jarno, I believe that Earth Sound amp circuit was a Fender Twin Reverb clone, which makes me think it is a 4 ohm amp. It makes sense to have 16 ohm speakers because four of them wired in parallel would present a 4 ohm load to the amp.
I can't think of a way to wire four 8 ohm speakers for 4 ohms. But a good tube amp can usually tolerate a 2:1 mismatch in speaker load. If you had four 8-ohm Eminence speakers and wired them in series/parallel it would be 8 ohms, which would probably be safe in that amp.
I've done such things quite a few times and all was well. But if smoke starts to come out of the back of your amp, I never told you any of this.
Here is the schematic I am looking at.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Oct 04, 2013 6:01 PM
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Rick Davis
2505 posts
Oct 04, 2013
6:10 PM
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More like a Fender Dual Showman clone, I think. But still 4 ohms. These Earth Sound amps had a rep for catching on fire. I wasn't really joking about that...
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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shbamac
383 posts
Oct 04, 2013
6:25 PM
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four 8 ohm speakers for 4 ohms, closest way to get there is wire two series, two parallel then wire the two sets parallel = 3.2 ohms.
You could wire two 16 ohm and two 8 ohms speakers for 5.3 ohms. Wire the two 8 ohm in series for 16 ohm and treat it is one speaker and wire the "three" speakers parallel.
Last Edited by shbamac on Oct 04, 2013 6:32 PM
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DukeBerryman
82 posts
Oct 04, 2013
9:00 PM
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I just had to buy two 10" speakers on the cheap, so I got Jensen MOD 50's. If had a little more to spend, I'd get Weber DT-10's.
Personally, I was looking for 4 ohm, but I believe both of these models come in 8 and 16 as well.
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Duke Berryman - Chicago blues, harmonica, guitar
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Jarno
2 posts
Oct 05, 2013
9:51 AM
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Thanks guys!
I don't have a schematic, unfortunately.
The Earthts are, as far as I know, a sort of Peavey clone. Which in there turn were sort of Bassman clones.
(correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure)
I think they came in solidstate preamp.
Mine is not. It's all tube, point to point with one tube for spring reverb. SSrectifier.
It's been modded extensively. Probably by previous owners as well. I took it to a guitar tech when I was younger and had it modded to the Weber-list.
The tech didn't know anything about harmonica and did the best he could. It was ok, but not great.
I recently had it looked at by Fox Amps, here in Holland. It is now a powerful harp amp!
It came with the four Alnico's wired in parallel to 4 Ohms. And though I never measured it, it is probably right.
I want to try to avoid mismatching. I know you can till some extent but I would rather not. Although 3.2 Ohms is pretty close...
I will probably go with the Webers. It's a shame the Lil"Buddies don't come in 16 Ohm. I really like their bassy loundness and I think they would combine well with the WSG Veterans. As they are crunchy but a bit trebly.
Thanks again everyone!!
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Rick Davis
2513 posts
Oct 05, 2013
10:01 AM
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Jarno, the output transformer might well have multiple speaker taps for different ohm loads. That is very common. Can you take the amp to a tech to check that? If so it would be very very simple (and cheap) to change it to 8 ohms or 2 ohms, making four 8-ohm speakers work perfectly.
I think your idea of using two Lil Buddys and two Warehouse Veterans is really good. I use both speakers in different amps and your description of their tone is dead on. The Veteran really crunches.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Jarno
3 posts
Oct 05, 2013
12:39 PM
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Thanks Rick!
I will do that. If that's so, that will definately make things easier!
I will let you know how it works out.
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rbeetsme
1375 posts
Oct 05, 2013
1:44 PM
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I have a Weber 10" classic alnico that is 16 ohm. Bought it on ebay some years back. It was supposed to be a 12" 8 ohm, seller sent me a vintage Jensen P12Q and told me to keep the Weber. New in box. Never tried it, but highly recommended. Check out Weber site.
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Jarno
4 posts
Dec 15, 2015
11:37 AM
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Hi everyone!
This sure took a while!
Haven't been playing my amp in a while due to other priorities. Wife, house, family...
Much like this thread, I have resurrected my old band. We quit after our drummer had died, tragically. But we're up and running again!
I gave up on the Lil'buddies and decided to get two WGS veterans in 16 Ohm. Combining them with the original Alnico's.
Sound is great.
However... it doesn't cut through the mix.
Bands I play in tend to be (too) loud. I would imagine an amp with 4 6L6 tube power to be plenty.
I can turn my amp up to about 10 on the master and 10 on the volume before feedback. Sound is great, but noone can hear it...
Still thinking about more efficient speakers. And since a friendly guitar player offered to build me a new cab; all options are open!
Amp stays 4 Ohms, of course. But maybe 1 Lill buddie and say... 4 WGS G8C ???
(Or 2 x 10 and 6 x 8 ?? No, that's pushing it...)
I am under the impression that these speakers are more efficient and the 8s will let me hear myself better on stage.
Any thoughts?
Kind regards,
Jarno
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Barley Nectar
980 posts
Dec 16, 2015
8:14 AM
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You have a 65W amp that is wide open and no feedback? I feel that something is wrong with that amp. Forget the 8's, they will not help a bit. Get the amp checked by a good tech. Maybe whoever set that thing up for harp sucked all the gain out of the preamp with mods. Not good.
Now, If and when your amp is working properly, you are still buried, I would tell those guys to turn down or find another band. JMO...BN
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Jarno
5 posts
Dec 16, 2015
10:10 AM
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Barley, you are right, of course!
However... the amp was checked by Fox amps in Holland. Known for building and modifying great harp amps.
Also, the amp was checked by my local amp guy, Stamp amps, who told me the amp was fine (he's strictly guitar and didn't look that hard...)
But still I think it doesn't cut like it should.
Preamp tubes are changed back to 5751, 12ax7, 12ax7.
Rectifier is solid state.
I would hate to give up on this amp. We've been through a lot...
If I could just get that little extra out of it...
Hopefully with a pair of more sensitive speakers.
And maybe turn up the Mid and experiment further with tonesettings. (Now treble 3, Mid 5, bass 11, I think)
Next gig is 27 December. I will have to try it out then.
I will have my tech take another look at the preamp gain.
Now, back to speakers.
As I mentioned before. I would like a paor of lil'buddies, but I cannot get them in 4 or 16 Ohm. Just 8.
I was looking at the Warehouse speakers site and found the Retro 10. With a sound pressure of over 100!"low midrange grow" sounds good. More low-end than their Green Beret. 60W.
Sounds like their Lil'buddie, doesn't it?
Has anyone had any experience with these speakers.
Any ideas wether they would work for harp. Are they comparable with the Eminence?
Thanks,
Jarno
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chromaticblues
1738 posts
Dec 17, 2015
7:02 AM
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Jamo I agree with Barley. It sounds to me like your getting bad advice. That amp should be so F-ing loud you can't turn it above four!
Your not using a low impedance vocal mic are you?
That would explain what your talking about.
I wouldn't give up on it.
You just need help from someone that understands what your trying to do.
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Barley Nectar
982 posts
Dec 17, 2015
8:10 AM
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Yes, Chrom has a good point about the mic. What mic are you using? You need a high impedance input for any guitar amp. If you are using a low Z (impedance) mic you need an impedance matching transformer at the amp. You want low to hi.
Your tube compliment sounds good to me. When gigging I find less bass and more mids and treble is needed to cut thru the mix. Room acoustics make a difference also. Soft rooms can take more mids and highs. Hard rooms, not so much of this. Hard rooms are also more prone to feedback. It's all a balancing act and every gig is different.
I have never tried a Lil'Buddy because most folks report that they are dark sounding. I don't care for dark speakers, they don't cut in the mix, although this may not be the case in a high power amp such as yours. You want a loud strong speaker that will handle power, take a look at an Eminence Ragin Cajun. I have three of these three in different 2x10 cabs. I feel the Ragin Cajun is a superb speaker for harp. Great bottom and mids, smooth on top and LOUD!
For proper Z matching for your 4 ohm output transformer you can wire the two 16 ohm speakers in parallel with two eight ohm speakers in series then have the 8's in parallel with the 16's. This shows your amp a load that is equivalent to three 16 ohm speakers in parallel for a total load of 5.33 ohms. This will be close enough for your amp and will work just fine. Consult you tech or electrician buddy for series parallel hookups.
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Dec 17, 2015 5:09 PM
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Jarno
6 posts
Dec 17, 2015
12:04 PM
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The mic can't be the problem.
It's a Shure 520 with cm element.
It's a bit hotter than my Hohner bluesblaster and way hotter than a bunch of other mics I have tried (Ronette, EV, American, etc.)
Thanks for the tip on the ragig'cajun. However, that has the same mismatching problem as the Lil'Buddie. I know it's not that bad to mismatch a little, but there must be an equally "loud" and good harp speaker out there in 4 or 16 Ohm?!
I will keep the Ragin'Cajun in mind, though.
My amp is at my local tech now. I have asked him if he can boost the preamp gain a little. I am waiting for his response. I will let you know how it works out.
If you have any technical tips I can tell my amp-guy I would appreciate it!!
Thanks for the input!
Jarno
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Jarno
7 posts
Dec 19, 2015
8:48 AM
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Ok. So my amp guy told me to use an overdrive pedal. That's the same as boosting pre-amp....
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timeistight
1915 posts
Dec 19, 2015
1:47 PM
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Something is seriously wrong with your rig if you're able to dime an amp this big with a high impedance 520 plugged in. If everything was working right that would hellishly loud -- too loud to stand near!
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Jarno
8 posts
Dec 22, 2015
1:34 AM
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Hi all,
I've just picked up the amp again from my tech.
He says it's working fine. It sounds good, even with guitar.
He measured the bias and the output. Everything ok.
He also says that everything was put together very neatly.
His advise is to play it as it is or sell it and buy something else.
I don't really want to sell it. Also a new amp will set me back a 1000 euro's or so. That's not an option at this point in time (december).
So... play it like it is, then.
Next sunday we're playing our "comeback" gig. I will fiddle around with some tonesettings and stuff. I will keep you posted how it turns out.
Thanks for all advise of course!!
Still pondering on that speaker issue, though.
Seems like a Lil'buddie and a Ragin'Cajun would make a good team.
But what about those WGS Retro 10's?? They are readily available and for a great price!
Can anybody tell me wether this is a good option?
Cheers,
Jarno
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Jarno
9 posts
Dec 22, 2015
1:42 AM
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https://wgs4.com/10-retro-10-60-watts
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arnenym
366 posts
Dec 22, 2015
6:13 AM
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This one is a killer! It works very good in combination with 2 Veterans. It could be too much bottom with 4 of them.
https://wgs4.com/10-green-beret-25-watts
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Jarno
10 posts
Dec 29, 2015
10:45 AM
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Hi everyone,
Thanks Arnenym. I noticed the Green Beret from WGS and they seem to fit the bill, but... the Retro's are a lot more "sensitive". (Although the GB's are more sensitive than the Veterans).
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but this means they are "louder", doesn't it? Not that it necessarily is a good thing, but it is what I am looking for.
Also the GB's have a lower wattage.
They do come in 16 Ohms!!
But according to the discription,the Retro's have more Low-end, slightly more top-end and a shift in mid-range compared to the Green Beret.
Would this be considered a good thing for harp?
They also do a ET10 which could also qualify.
I will definately order 2 new speakers. I am just not quite sure which ones to get. I have sent WGS an email but did'n't get any respons.
My band played it's comeback gig last sunday. I fired up my amp and decided on a different approach to the tone/volume settings. What I used to do was turn up Master and Volume to the point of feedback, then dialing out the frequency that was feeding back.Than turning up the Volume and Master further etc.
This always gave a full and crunchy tone, but didn't cut.
Playing for the first time in years, in a larger room than my bedroom with this amp, I turned up the Treble and Mid en turned back the Volume...
To my surprise the amp kept it's crunch. I had to do a quick soundcheck but decided on Volume on about 6 (halfway) Treble 5, Mid 5, Bass 8 (used to be way up). Master on 10 (!).
Not perfect but better!
I do feel quite silly for not doing this before...
In my defence, that was a few years ago.
I do have confidence now, that this amp can be a great harp amp and loud enough. But the two original Alnico's have definately lost their power (or never had any).
I will report back!
Cheers,
Jarno
Last Edited by Jarno on Dec 29, 2015 12:57 PM
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Jarno
11 posts
Jan 01, 2016
2:23 AM
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One more thing;
Will using two speakers with a very high sensitivity, like Lil'Buddy, of over a hundred, "drown" the two other speakers with lower sensitivity, like the Veterans, of around 93??
Thanks
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Barley Nectar
1020 posts
Jan 02, 2016
9:16 AM
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Ya know, I was out in the garage workin on my motorcycle and I got to thinking about this thread. A 100 watt amp that is fine but can't be heard. I'll bet there are some folks that do not realize that the vast majority of tube amps use tone controls ( referred to as a tone stack) that throw signal away. When you turn up the treble, you are not increasing treble signal to the speakers, you are decreasing bass! Your treble knob is a bass cut! Same with bass, as you turn the bass knob up, you are actually throwing away the treble, the high frequency part of the signal. This is called a passive tone stack. Example. Take a 100 watt Fender Twin and turn all the tone controls to 0 then turn the volume to 10. You will get very little if anything out of the speakers. You have thrown away all of your signal thru the tone stack.
The OP in this thread was throwing away signal thru his tone controls as a way to fight feedback. What was actually happening is he was decreasing volume thru the tone stack to the point where he could not be heard in the mix. No Cut! If you are going to play with a live band, you need your signal to get to the speakers. Put all your tone controls on 5 and work from there. You want every bit of that beautiful harp sound to get out of the speakers and please the audience. Learn to control feedback with technique, not knobs. Hope this helps someone out there...BN
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Jarno
12 posts
Jan 02, 2016
3:30 PM
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Thanks BN.
It took me a while to figure that out.
In hindsight it is very logical indeed.
Although I have to take a whole new look at my amp again, I sure am happy it was my fault of not using the amp correctly instead of the amp's.
Thank you for pointing out exactly what went wrong here!
And thanks to everyone else aswell, of course!
Nevertheless, I will swap the two AlNiCo speakers for something different. Although the WGS Green Beret seem like a very good choice (easily obtainable, cheap, good reviews, come in 16Ohms, etc), I am still very curious about the Retro 10. I might just order them to try them out, since noone else has...
According to the WGS discription, they seem like excellent harp speakers. If they don't work out, they will always fit some guitar cab.
I will post a review, of course.
Thanks again!
Cheers,
Jarno
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Jarno
13 posts
Jan 04, 2016
5:33 AM
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Just so you know;
I've deciced on ordering one of each WGS speakers.
1 Green beret and 1 Retro 10.
WGS is easy to get here in The Netherlands and are relatively cheap. Also I have heard a lot of good things about almost all of their speakers.
The GB was Arnenym's suggestion. They come in 16 Ohms. But... with a powerrating of 25W, two of them combined with two Veterans would be only 90W powerrating. That's close, with 4 6L6's.
But combining a Retro 10 with the 2 Vet's and a GB will keep me on the safe side! Also I can try out both and always decide on switching one (or even both).
Any thoughts are welcome ofcourse.
Greetings,
Jarno
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Georgia Blues
197 posts
Jan 19, 2016
11:05 AM
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just got a couple of Jenson Jet Falcons for a 4x10 and they seem very nice for modest price. Time will tell.
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