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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
The "why" of blue notes
The "why" of blue notes
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mr_so&so
762 posts
Nov 26, 2013
10:37 AM
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When we talk about the blues scale we often force it into the chromatic scale, e.g. the blue 3rd becomes the minor third, flattened a half step. If we do this, we can start thinking that the blues scale is just the minor pentatonic scale with an additional flat 5. It's a mistake to start thinking this way.
For those of us who've followed Adam's YT lesssons, he is clear that the "blue" third is not the minor third. I got that, and learned to play the blue third. But I always wondered why the blue notes are used the way they are, as microtones, and not the nearest chromatic scale tones.
Maybe it was already obvious to you all, but I got my clear answer, and an aha moment, when I watched this recent guitar tutorial video (at around 1:20). The blue third is close enough to the major third to blend (with tension) with the major I chord, while the minor third just clashes.
This info about the importance of the blue note has implications for position playing over major blues dominant seventh chords. Second position is king for a reason. If we just concentrate on the availability of the micro-tonal blue third, between the minor and major thirds, we want that note to be attainable via a bend, either down from the major third, or up (via an overblow) from the minor third. If we examine the chromatic scale tab charts (link in my profile), we see that second position is an ideal choice over three octaves, bending down from 3d, up from 6ob, and down from 10b, between 10b' and 10b''. In contrast, 3rd position is not ideal, because while blue note between 2d' and 2d'' is OK, the 5d and 9d lock you in to the minor third. First position has good potential, if you can produce and bend overblows.
Anyway, just some food for thought.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Nov 26, 2013 2:06 PM
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JInx
644 posts
Nov 26, 2013
10:47 AM
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yup, i see it that way too.
The blue third is more a "bent" major 3rd, then a minor 3rd.
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Eyeball_Kid
16 posts
Nov 26, 2013
3:41 PM
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I used to call it the "dirty third". There are lots of discussions on how high this note should exactly be and which frequency you should try to hit. I think it should be as high as you want it to be, we are lucky enough to play an instrument with which we are able to speak as we want.
Did you just say "bend overblows"? Don't tell me this is possible. My whole life is a lie!! I didn't know you are able to intonate overblows I thought thex were kind of fixed.
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WinslowYerxa
436 posts
Nov 26, 2013
4:14 PM
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A opening reed can potentially bend up several semitones in pitch. But that range is limited partly be the presence of the other reed, which bleeds off air pressure, partly by the adjustment of both reeds, and partly by the skill of the player.
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Winslow
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harpdude61
1911 posts
Nov 26, 2013
6:49 PM
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Eyeball Kid I remember when I first heard it I was amazed.
Personally, I have a few harps that I can bend an OB up four 1/2 steps cleanly. I think Todd P. and a couple of others can do 6 or 7.
Overdraws are tougher. Two half steps is all I can muster.
That said the most used one for me is 6 ob. Bend it up at the end of a phrase for color sometimes.
Absorb this and then we'll tell you about the double stop with a hole OB and the other not!
Winslow, I have asked on here before about the physics of what is happening when you bend an overblow. We talked about how the draw reed is all that is used in the OB and the blow reed plays no part. Quite different than typical bends. So if the reed can take it and the player can get the air thru the number of bends is infinite because you don't have another reed to interact with, to limits the amount of bend.
We all agree that blow and draw bends are limited to the pitches available between the two reeds.
Please comment. I may be missing something.
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harpdude61
1912 posts
Nov 26, 2013
6:51 PM
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Sorry to hijack So&so...just a good opportunity.
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isaacullah
2576 posts
Nov 27, 2013
8:38 AM
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I've been interested in the historic origins of "blue notes" for some time now, and my search has led me to the music of West Africa, and it's unique history. From all I've read, and all the music I've listened to, I'm convinced that "blue notes" derive from the blending of Islamic classical music traditions, and local West African musical traditions, such as Songhai and Djeli/Griot music. The West African music forms were/are highly pentatonic, and make use of various pentatonic modes. Arabic/Islamic music is based on "maqam" scales, which are not equally tuned, but typically have much more than 12 available tones. There are many maqamat (plural of maqam), and many sound microtonal to us, because their notes fall "in between" those of the 12-tone western chromatic scale. It is my belief that the highly pentatonic West African music forms melded with the maqamat forms of the conquering Arabs in or after the 14th century. This led to a unique set of musical ideas that root melodies on pentatonic scales, but allow "microtonal" elements of maqamat playing to enter at specific points in those pentatonic scales... These musical forms were kept separate from the "classical" music of the region (both Arabic and Griot), but were and are still popular among the general populace (i.e., they became "folk" music). It is these "folk" forms that travelled with West African slaves to the New World, and which form the basis of many of the great musical forms that developed here (Blues, Jazz, Ska/Reggae)...
This would all account for why "blue notes" do not fall anywhere on western scales, and why they are often hard for classically trained western musicians to grasp. For what it's worth, I think the "blue third" of the blues really lies in the whole region between the major second and the major third. On slide guitar and on harmonica, I often start with the "blue third" bent down about a quarter tone below the minor third, and release it until about a quarter tone above it. I call this the "blue zone". :)
BTW, the other main "blue note" of the blues scale also can be thought of as a "zone" between the major fourth and major fifth instead of as a single note (i.e. rather than as just the "minor fifth"). On a harmonica, that means that the whole sweep of the 4-draw bend, right down to the floor of the bend (about a quarter-tone flatter than the minor fifth) is your "blue zone" for that part of the scale.
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Last Edited by isaacullah on Nov 27, 2013 8:42 AM
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Rgsccr
214 posts
Nov 27, 2013
9:44 AM
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An interesting side-note to Issacullah's post - I was in Boise,Idaho this summer waiting outside a store for my wife, pulled out a harp and started playing some blues (Red Rooster maybe). A woman who worked at the Starbucks in the store came out for a break and listened for a while. When I stopped she asked me in a heavy accent (but fluent English) where I learned African music. We talked a while and it was clear that she knew nothing of the blues but recognized the sound and rhythm as African. I asked her where she was from and she told me Sierra Leone. Kind of amazed me - mainly that I could play something recognizable as anything. While I know the link between the blues, the south and slavery (with many slaves coming from West Africa), it was kind of eye opening that someone today from that area would hear blues as "African music."
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chromaticblues
1522 posts
Nov 27, 2013
10:20 AM
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@ isaacullah
I thought the blue fifth was between the major and the minor fifth.
With an A harp try to get three equally spaced draw notes.
The first being the unbent draw 4 and the third being the draw 4 bent down a semitone. Now create the note in between those two. That is the Blue fifth.
I learned this by accident from a James Cotton song.
It took me awhile to wrap my head around the fact it was possible.
Last Edited by chromaticblues on Nov 27, 2013 10:22 AM
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mr_so&so
764 posts
Nov 27, 2013
10:36 AM
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Thanks Isaac and Rgsccr for your interesting replies.
@Isaac, I agree with your "blue zones" concept as opposed to particular blue notes. It amazes me that the harmonica played in 2nd position is so ideally suited to playing with those blue zones, especially with the large bending zone of the 3d, but also with the 4d bend from floor to unbent, as you describe. More amazingly, the two blue zones are accessible in all three octaves with the 1d bend, 6 overblow, 7od and 10od, and 10b bends. All of this by accident.
I've been playing a lot of major pentatonic stuff recently, and have noticed that the "blue zone" between the major 2nd and the major 3rd sounds so good on those tunes too. I've even seen the major pentatonic plus blue 3rd zone being called the "major blues scale". I was researching the origins of the pentatonic scales recently too, and it seems there is no credible scientific explanation for why it is so ubiquitous across human cultures. It just seems to be inherently human, or ancient enough to have spread across the globe along with us, kind of proto-culture.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Nov 27, 2013 10:38 AM
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wolfkristiansen
244 posts
Nov 27, 2013
10:43 AM
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The "blue note". This topic (using those beautiful notes that reside in the cracks between the piano keys) has always fascinated me.
I've been blessed with an almost perfect sense of pitch. This was confirmed during my university years. In a psychology course on perception, we had our sense of pitch tested. I was the only one in the class able to match the variable pitches in one ear of the headphone with the constant pitches coming through the other.
Sometimes a perfect sense of pitch is a curse. You wince when someone is slightly flat or sharp while playing a note that should be true. Aside-- that's why I have a problem with the sound of many (not all) overblow and overdraw practitioners.
Blue notes, while not "true" in the classical Western music sense, ring true with every musician steeped in the blues. The main blue note is as Isacullah described it-- "the blue third of the blues really lies in the whole region between the major second and the major third". Often, when I play, I will flatten the third ever so slightly in the first phrase, then repeat the phrase and flatten it slightly more. It's a finely tuned, purposeful control over the "bluesiness" of the sound.
When I think about it, it's probably my best, perhaps overused, trick. I insert that blue third anywhere I can, while playing blues, country, rock & roll, or rudimentary jazz. The result is that anything I play has a blues tinge to it. I don't mind.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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JInx
646 posts
Nov 27, 2013
10:50 AM
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Can we hear some examples? I like to hear some use of a blue note between the major 2nd and minor 3rd interval. Thanks
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Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
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isaacullah
2581 posts
Nov 27, 2013
11:00 AM
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@chromaticblues: I think you've accurately described the "conventional wisdom" about that note, and what you've said does indeed make a great tone. But what I'm arguing here (and seeing that a few folks, at least, are agreeing with me), is that there is a much wider zone of microtonal variation possible than is usually described by the conventional wisdom. The conventional wisdom gets you most of the way there, and gets you sounding good. The wider conceptualization of the microtonal aspects of blues music is something that gets you beyond that, IMHO. It's something that I still work on, every day. Sliding and slurring pitch in juuuust the right way. Hitting the bent microtones directly with no slide up or down. Hitting several in succession. These are the things that make the blues the BLUES in my opinion.
As for the "blue fifth", take slide guitar for instance: it's commonplace to slide from the fifth fret to the seventh fret and back, often pausing at different places in between the two. This is a MAJOR part of slide guitar blues stylings. If you look at what it's doing, it's sliding between the fourth and the fifth. That whole zone is the "blue fifth", in my opinion. On harp, we can't slide the whole way down to the fourth, but we can bend the 4-draw as far as it goes and ALMOST get to the fourth. We can then release it in any increment we want, all the way up to the perfect fifth, and it ALL sounds good! That's the beauty of it! :)
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mr_so&so
766 posts
Nov 27, 2013
11:04 AM
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Going back to my original post, about blues played over major chords, there are parts of the blue zones that sound better than others over a major chord. If we stick to the I chord, the minor 3rd sounds very disonnent. I assume that the closer you get to the major 2nd (9th) and the major 3rd, the more you blend in, depending on how the major chords are being augmented. E.g. if 9th chords are in the mix, the blue zone near the major 2nd will sound especially good. I'm no music theorist, so I stand to be corrected.
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isaacullah
2582 posts
Nov 27, 2013
11:05 AM
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@Jinx: Check it out, right at about the 0:52 mark.
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JInx
648 posts
Nov 27, 2013
12:06 PM
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Thanks Issacullah. I hear your dirge with an overall minor tonality. I understood the blue note to be a tension caused by bending the 3rd over a major tonality, like Leadbelly singing blues here. Thanks again, I'll have to give more listen to minor blues and it's blue notes.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on Nov 27, 2013 12:08 PM
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Frank
3395 posts
Nov 27, 2013
5:54 PM
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Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
George Carlin
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 27, 2013 5:55 PM
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