Rarko
73 posts
Dec 25, 2013
3:49 PM
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Hey, guys, I need your help!
In my country we dont have a lot of harp players and harp gear... so, it's a catch If you find something for buying here, and new stuff is very expensive.
I found one Astatic JT-30 from one harp player, he is mine good friend. So, he gave me for a test his astatic with ceramic element, switchfract adapter, vintage volume control, vintage astatic cable and crystal element MC-151. And price for everything is realy nice... but...
When I play with my Shure 440SL (99A86 CM element) on my VHT (tubes swapped like Rick Davis recommended) and volume is at 9 o clock, sound is a little beneath feedback level and it's loud and with lot of gain. very good and hot tone.
with that astatic: tone is not that loud and there is no feedback either on 12 o clock! And when I raise that volume knob amp isnt louder like when I use my 440SL bullet.
And tone is warm and less sharp.
I never tried one ceramic element before.
So, is that just astatic ceramic element sound or there's a problem with this element?
Last Edited by Rarko on Dec 25, 2013 5:13 PM
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tmf714
2295 posts
Dec 25, 2013
4:23 PM
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hey Rarko-
Its more than likely the ceramic element-I have not owned one until recently-my collection is fairly diverse between CM,CR and vintage crystals-my experience was similar to yours-
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1847
1426 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:21 PM
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try using a higher gain tube
new old stock sylvania or rca
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Rarko
74 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:27 PM
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1847, I am using 5751 Sovtek and Electro Harmonix 6V6. And I realy like the sound when I use my shure bullet. But that astatic is maybe a problem... Dunno, maybe it should sound like that, like I said, I never tried one before.
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1847
1427 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:48 PM
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if you really like the sound with the shure then you do not have an issue
if you have a weak crystal or ceramic element
try a 12ax7 preferably a nos tube.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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tmf714
2296 posts
Dec 25, 2013
6:07 PM
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What you don't read my post?
It has nothing to do with tube swaps-its the nature of the ceramic element-it has inherently less power and distortion-if you can get more volume on the amp,try adding some treble,and turn down the bass.
Tube swaps are not the answer here-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Dec 25, 2013 6:11 PM
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Kingley
3335 posts
Dec 25, 2013
7:19 PM
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"I found one Astatic JT-30 from one harp player, he is mine good friend. So, he gave me for a test his astatic with ceramic element, switchfract adapter, vintage volume control, vintage astatic cable and crystal element MC-151."
I'm confused is it a ceramic element or a crystal element or both?
Either way it's most likely that the element is near to the end of it's useable life. It might be ok for recording with, but as a gigging element I would't really bother with it. Tom's suggestion of turning up the treble and lowering the bass, will help somewhat. Ultimately though the element isn't going to be great. I'd stick with the CM 99A86 element you have. If the price for the Astatic is cheap enough then buy it, use it until it dies and then put a Shure CM 99A86 inside the JT30 shell.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 25, 2013 7:21 PM
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Greg Heumann
2523 posts
Dec 25, 2013
9:51 PM
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Ceramic/crystal elements operating at original strength are as loud/strong as a 99A86, or even stronger. They can be loaded down by too-low impedance inputs, but the chances are very good the element is simply not all there any more. That is the rule - 100% output crystal or ceramic elements are the rare exception these days.
DO try taking the volume control out of the circuit. If it makes a big (like 10-20%) difference it may be my standard control as opposed to the extra-hi-impedance one I make specifically for crystal elements.
Your may also be using an amp with lower than ideal input impedance.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Dec 25, 2013 9:52 PM
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Rarko
75 posts
Dec 26, 2013
12:19 AM
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@Kingley, ceramic is inside and crystal is out. Price is around 130$ for everything but I dont know how to try that crystal, I am affraid to do it myself.
@tmf714, I read your post first and I appreciate your answer. But I didnt found neccessery to answer on everybody's answer, sorry. But, you see what Greg says, original ceramic are even stronger!
So, I will try to find someone to replace that ceramic for a crystal and if the crystal is also week I would pass it! Thanks guys
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arnenym
249 posts
Dec 26, 2013
2:23 AM
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You have a mic with a chrystal inside and a extra ceramic element?
Do you want to test if the spare element is better or what?
I believe Greg is on the right track here.
What input do you use?
A Chrystal works best on the Hi input - No boost.
Last Edited by arnenym on Dec 26, 2013 2:25 AM
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Greg Heumann
2524 posts
Dec 26, 2013
12:18 PM
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Not sure what you mean "ceramic is inside and crystal is out"? I DO have 100% output crystals in stock. Contact me off line if interested.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Dec 26, 2013 12:19 PM
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Rarko
76 posts
Dec 26, 2013
12:44 PM
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Ok, I see, I am not clear...
Crystal element is in that astatic. But he will give me crystal MC 151 with that mic, I dont know is it working fine or not.
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tmf714
2300 posts
Dec 26, 2013
1:02 PM
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From Fritz the Harp Mic Man-R.I.P.
Jon, the ceramic piezo-electric element is the closest thing to a crystal you can get -without actually being a crystal or having the inherent liabilities/weaknesses of the crystal. In the case of the best known ASTATIC elements, side-by-side comparisons of the MC-151 crystal and the MC-127 ceramic underscore their physical similarities and sonic differences: Their capsules are essentially the same; Their "active ingredients" function under the same principle: Applying pressure yields voltage. The differences? The Rochelle salt crystals of the "crystal" element are -like table salt- water soluble and somewhat hydroscopic and are subject to change as a result of exposure to moisture (read "fail"). Add to this the traits that they don't handle impact or heat well (read "fail") and you get the impression they are temperamental performers. The ceramic element is a compromise to some as its output is 2 to 4 dB less than its crystal counterpart and has a response curve that does not reach the typical 10K of the crystal (for many this is an advantage). As a result, I refer to them as being somewhat "darker" in sonic signature. What do you get in return? DURABILITY. Nowhere near the sensitivity to exposure, the elements, or rough-handling. The ceramic was an economic attempt to cure the ills experienced with the crystal. Players like Gary Primmich and William Clark learned to work with these ceramic elements and enjoyed their benefits.
A personal observation: Testing NOS MC-151 crystals and MC-127 ceramics has shown a much higher degree of consistency among the ceramics tested and a much lower rate of DOA's -in fact, NO DOA's have been encountered. Even among a half-dozen new, out-of-the-wrapper MC-151's it's not likely to find two that are identical. There lies part of the crystal's charm: They really DO seem to have individual personalities...
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Top
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Greg Heumann
2525 posts
Dec 26, 2013
1:07 PM
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"A personal observation: Testing NOS MC-151 crystals and MC-127 ceramics has shown a much higher degree of consistency among the ceramics tested and a much lower rate of DOA's"
I wish I could say that has been my experience but it hasn't. I will say that I have not had a very large statistical sample so it may be meaningless - but for me the DOA (or "WOA" - weak on arrival) rate for MC-127's has been about the same as for MC-151's. But i want to reiterate - BOTH "crystal" and "ceramic" are in fact man made crystals and both work on the piezoelectric principle. The fact that a crystal is made of a rochelle salt crystal does NOT mean it is like table salt - it isn't - salt has a much broader meaning in chemistry. What's my point? I don't know. It is indeed hygroscopic and over time that's what kills them.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Dec 26, 2013 1:14 PM
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timeistight
1470 posts
Dec 26, 2013
1:20 PM
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"he will give me crystal MC 151 with that mic, I dont know is it working fine or not."
If you have an old guitar cable you can afford to sacrifice, you can make element-testing cable by replacing one of the 1/4 inch plugs with two alligator clips:
Then you can test any element by simply clipping the the cable to the terminals and pluging the other end into an amp.
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wallywalters
1 post
Dec 20, 2014
12:53 PM
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I have some NOS PMC 151s and 127s I got from Omnitronix years ago..... Still in baggies in their little white boxes.
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Harpaholic
567 posts
Dec 20, 2014
2:49 PM
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Greg said, but for me the DOA (or "WOA" - weak on arrival) rate for MC-127's has been about the same as for MC-151's.
Having owned well over 200 Crystal and Ceramics of all the brands back in my serious mic building days , I would have to agree with Greg. For some reason the ceramics were not as hardy as Astatic claimed.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Dec 20, 2014 2:51 PM
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