DukeBerryman
283 posts
Mar 25, 2014
3:53 PM
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Did a quick search of the forum, but didn't find a list of songs in the key of B flat. I just got my first Seydel Blues Session Standard in Low E.
One of the reasons I wanted to get this Low E was to be prepared when going to jams. I've had to play with horn players, and there is a more jazzy jam I want to go to, and I don't want to show up without an E harp. But I don't like the regular E anymore - just too high pitched.
Anyway, I'd love to get some practice on this harp to prepared to jam in B flat. And with the lower pitch, I need a blowing and drawing workout. So, anyone know any songs, maybe on YouTube that I can just jam along to? PS: Not really into jam tracks
Thanks! The only song I can think of is Slave by the Rolling Stones
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1847
1632 posts
Mar 25, 2014
3:58 PM
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you want to jam in Bb so you bought an E
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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DukeBerryman
284 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:01 PM
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@1847 Is that the wrong harp key? I thought I was supposed to use an E in second position for B flat.
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BluesJacketman
113 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:06 PM
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Eb is 2nd for Bb.
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timeistight
1521 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:06 PM
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"Eb is 2nd for Bb."
And E harps play in B in second position.
Last Edited by timeistight on Mar 25, 2014 4:07 PM
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DukeBerryman
285 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:08 PM
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Do I need songs in B, not B flat? Not 100% clear on the difference. "Slave" is listed on the internet as being in "B" not B flat, so maybe I need B songs.
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DukeBerryman
286 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:10 PM
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Oh, gotcha. Thanks, guys. So which is the key that is good for sax? Is it B flat or B?
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BluesJacketman
115 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:11 PM
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yes B major and B flat or Bb Major are different keys.
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SuperBee
1818 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:11 PM
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With an E you're set to play second in B. Try midnight rambler.
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BluesJacketman
116 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:11 PM
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Sax can play in any key.
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DukeBerryman
287 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:17 PM
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Maybe I can get a Low Eb. I'm just afraid that when I go to this more jazzy jam, they are going to stick me in the horn section. Which is fine, I just want to be ready.
@1847 The jam is at Cafe Cordiale in Sherman Oaks - you should come up and cut heads
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SuperBee
1819 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:17 PM
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Yeah but you will find a lot of songs arranged for horns in Bb, so get that Eb and check it out. I find those low harps kinda difficult to bend the real low reeds, but with work it's doable.
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DukeBerryman
288 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:20 PM
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@SuperBee I already got the reed in the 1 hole to hit the plate. I'm worried I'm going to damage the reeds - in the instruction manual, it says to go easy at first, so I'm trying to. Could I hurt this harp by playing too hard too soon?
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timeistight
1522 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:30 PM
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"Do I need songs in B, not B flat? Not 100% clear on the difference."
"So which is the key that is good for sax? Is it B flat or B?"
"Sax can play in any key."
Yes, saxes can play in any key, but horn players tend to prefer the flat keys (F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db). Unfortunately, guitar players tend to prefer sharp keys (G, D, A, E, B, F#).
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DukeBerryman
289 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:35 PM
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@timeistight Cool, thanks. I see what you're saying - I've never played in the key of F# but I need to add that to my list for regular blues jams.
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timeistight
1523 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:43 PM
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Nobody really wants to play in F#; I just got OCD about listing all the sharp keys.
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1847
1634 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:47 PM
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bald harp players know better than to cut heads
it makes an ungodly thump when it hits the floor
check out live at the the king king... lester butler
he uses an E harp on a few tracks
cut that out?
no fighting
sax players hate the key of B...too many sharps
7 of them???
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Mar 25, 2014 4:48 PM
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BluesJacketman
117 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:51 PM
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Its funny because sharps and flats are the same thing.
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timeistight
1524 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:51 PM
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B major is five sharps.
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SuperBee
1820 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:52 PM
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You can hurt the harp playing too hard, full stop. I don't believe in 'breaking in'. But it's a good idea to cultivate only playing as hard as you need to.
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DukeBerryman
291 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:53 PM
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@1847 This is tight:
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Goldbrick
375 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:53 PM
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Lots of guys play in F#
Those are the guys who tune to e flat like Hendrix and SRV so normal G becomes F#.
I tune my acoustics down to D and just tell the other guitar player not to watch my hands for the key
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Mar 25, 2014 4:56 PM
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1847
1635 posts
Mar 25, 2014
4:58 PM
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devil woman G harp
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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DukeBerryman
292 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:03 PM
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@1847 I have to admit, I'm new to this guy:
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GamblersHand
498 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:07 PM
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Ab in 3rd is a great sound.
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DukeBerryman
293 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:08 PM
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@SuperBee Thanks, Bee. To be honest, I've played acoustic most of my life, and I always tried to play as loud and hard as possible. So, that's a habit I have to break (or modify).
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1847
1636 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:09 PM
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thank you time is tight
C# 7 sharps?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1637 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:11 PM
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berrryman that was an imposter
not lester not even close... still i liked it
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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DukeBerryman
294 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:20 PM
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@1847 Is that version of Cut That Out in B? I'm still training my ear, but that would be my guess...
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DukeBerryman
295 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:21 PM
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By the way, this is my first Seydel and like it because it's like my Lee Oskars. Even kind of sounds the same
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timeistight
1525 posts
Mar 25, 2014
5:37 PM
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Yes, seven sharps is C# major. And seven flats is Cb major.
Here are the number of sharps or flats for each major and minor key:
Last Edited by timeistight on Mar 25, 2014 5:39 PM
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1847
1638 posts
Mar 25, 2014
7:13 PM
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Things I really like about the red devil’s tribute.
First of all he is dressed sharp.
He has passion,
The whole band has passion
The guitar itself, it looks like a nick huber guitar.
The guitar playing,
The bar is packed.
I like the ending. lester got carried away, these guys realize that, and fixed it.
Lester butler was extra special. ordinary people have not heard of him.
The one’s that did, he touched deeply.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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nacoran
7657 posts
Mar 25, 2014
7:54 PM
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And if you ever need to know which sharps or flats a key has, but don't read key signatures, consult Time is Tight's chart, count the number of sharps of flats and remember this- sharps are added in this order:
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
and flats are added in this order:
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charle's Father
It can be useful to know if you are working with a green guitar player. :)
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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STME58
691 posts
Mar 25, 2014
10:39 PM
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I was listening to Q on KPBS tonight with a Bb harp in my hand. Foster the People was in studio and played a song which, to my amazement was in Bb.
Someone mentioned above that a sax can play in any key. This is true, but alto and bari sax are Eb instruments and Tenor sax (along with trumpets and trombones) are Bb instruments. You will find that many horn players prefer to play in the flat keys (the left side of timeistight's chart). String players tend to prefer to stay on the right (#) side. Nobody likes the bottom of the chart.
If the horns outnumber the strings, (marching band, brass quintet, wind ensemble)most of the music is in the flat keys. If the strings outnumber the horns, rock band, symphony orchestra, string quartet), most of the music is in the sharp keys.
Fat Cats GO Down An Elevator Backwards
BEAD
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Gipsy
54 posts
Mar 26, 2014
12:12 AM
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Of the most common sax's the Alto sax plays in Eb, and the tenor sax plays in Bb. Trumpets and cornets are Bb. Best check with the band the key they're playing in.
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Rubes
824 posts
Mar 26, 2014
4:30 AM
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So Duke...you wanna fit in with the horns and stuff...the regular Eb is fine, maybe an ET tuned baby so as not to sound out on your single notes.
If you've got the E........try some Fleetwood Mack, Popper, or Tull's 'Someday the sun won't shine for you'...... ;~}
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
Benny and Rubes at Reverbnation
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DukeBerryman
296 posts
Mar 26, 2014
5:54 AM
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@Rubes Thanks, Rubes. I do have 2 Suzuki Promasters that I love - in C and D. Maybe I could get a regular Eb Promaster, and maybe an Ab.
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WinslowYerxa
533 posts
Mar 26, 2014
1:04 PM
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Strings are not "in sharp keys." However, their open strings (EADGB on guitar, GDAE on violin) are the tonic notes of major keys that require sharps. This makes sharp keys the easiest to play in.
Why are brass instruments primarily in flat keys? Don't know. They weren't always. Trumpets and French horns used to be like diatonic harmonicas - they gave an incomplete scale that was based on their lowest note. You could change the lowest note by adding a length of tubing called a crook between the mouthpiece and the body of the horn, and most players carried about seven different crooks, sort of like having a kit of diatonic harmonicas.
When chromatic horns and trumpets were invented, F was chosen as the main key for horns, and Bb for trumpets.
Meanwhile, clarinets came in both Bb and A. You chose one or the other depending on the key of the music. After awhile, improvements in the fingering setup led to the elimination of the A clarinet.
Around the time that chromatic horns and trumpets came into use, Adolphe Sax invented the saxophone. Originally they came in two families, indoor instruments in F and C, and outdoor (marching) instruments in Bb and Eb, which were considered robust-sounding enough to be heard well outdoors but too coarse for the concert room (guess which family predominated).
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Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
SPONSORED BY
Lone Wolf Blues Company
Rockin’ Ron’s Music For Less
BlowsMeAway Productions
Slim’s Custom Cases
HarpGear
Seydel & Soehne
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 26, 2014 1:06 PM
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STME58
697 posts
Mar 26, 2014
10:29 PM
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Thanks Winslow, for the historical insights.
I wonder if the key difference in strings vs. horns is due to independent development of the instruments. You mentioned the indoor outdoor difference. Early horns were used outdoors for signaling for hunting and military purposes. Stings were used indoors for entertainment. I can imagine an early horn player trying to join the ensemble and being told to "take that thing outside where it belongs!".
I have learned that early horns, especially the trombone, had a sacred function. I wonder if there was a sacred/secular division between horns and strings such that no one could imagine them ever playing together.
I am fascinated by the similarity of the early horn player and his collection of crooks to the modern harp player with his slew of harps. Unless you had the chops to play in the very high registers, horn players were even more limited in note choices than harp players.
Anyone know where I can get some different key crooks to fit my US Regulation bugle?
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 26, 2014 10:31 PM
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WinslowYerxa
534 posts
Mar 27, 2014
8:52 AM
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"Unless you had the chops to play in the very high registers, horn players were even more limited in note choices than harp players."
Which is why "natural" trumpets were huge compared to valved ones. They pitched them very low so that getting up into the high register wasn't so hard, and so that the pitch wouldn't be stratospheric. Sort of like having a set of low and double-low 14-hole harps, and then playing them in the top register all the time.
Just to give harp players an idea of the limited not choice in natural horns and trumpets the equivalent would be having these notes available, from the bottom up:
1B 4B 6B 7B 8B 9B 10Bbb - and that's where the actual scale begins.
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Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
SPONSORED BY
Lone Wolf Blues Company
Rockin’ Ron’s Music For Less
BlowsMeAway Productions
Slim’s Custom Cases
HarpGear
Seydel & Soehne
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Slimharp
275 posts
Mar 27, 2014
11:17 PM
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Thanks Winslow. Very informative. I remember my step dad boasting he played an Eb sax in high school band. That was in the 30's.
Lester Butler --- Bad ass. Too bad he had to go. Seems stupid but I wasnt in his shoes.And yeah the guy in the green shirt in the clip was nowhere near Lester.
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STME58
704 posts
Mar 27, 2014
11:55 PM
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My son is playing the 1935 Buescher saxophone that his grandfather played in high school.
We also have a C Melody Maker sax that was marketed to allow sax players to play from a piano score directly without transposing. This fits with the indoor use of a C sax described above by Winslow.
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