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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Why Is Chromatic so.. Unpopular?
Why Is Chromatic so.. Unpopular?
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DannyRanch
32 posts
Jan 06, 2015
8:12 AM
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Yeah as everyone on this forum I love the diatonic special sound, screaming bends and wailing notes and such.
But I wanna try to learn the chromatic some day soon as well.
Why it is so unpopular inside the harp community?
I know overblows are cool and such but about the other topic of the expensive harps, why just don't switch to a chromatic when overbending gets that complicated?
I also don't hear many records with chrom and there is not that much learning material as there is for diatonic as well
So I'm just curious
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Gnarly
1194 posts
Jan 06, 2015
8:30 AM
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Chromatic doesn't have the urgent immediacy of the short harp--and is more expensive, and more difficult to maintain.
I am the Suzuki harmonica tech, and we have a one year warranty--that might make it easier for you, but there's still a lot of stuff going on under the hood as opposed to our 10 hole friend.
Playing in remote keys on chrom is also confusing and difficult--I was running thru E and A yesterday, not comfortable.
But the keys on chrom closer to what a diatonic player might use (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 12th position) are all pretty easy, and with an airtight axe (again, I recommend Suzuki) you should be able to make good music.
Oh, the windsavers.
Valves (or windsavers) make the instrument more airtight, but they also eliminate double reed bends, and they can cause problems (just the blow ones) due to condensation.
But I like the chromatic a lot, play it "in the field" and try to practice when I can. And, of course, I am trying to make it more popular.
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KingoBad
1586 posts
Jan 06, 2015
8:36 AM
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Who says the chromatic is unpopular?
I have seen some outstanding chrom playing in recent years and love it. I think you need to look a little harder.
It is just not the same instrument. It has it's strengths and weaknesses - but not the same.
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Danny
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DannyRanch
33 posts
Jan 06, 2015
8:42 AM
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Yeah, after reading and informing me about the chrom (with couple of videos from Kudzu and Mooncat)
I then realized "playing" on the 12 keys on a Chrom can be as difficult (if not almost impossible) as on a Diatonic.
The question came to mind after reading the other post of custom diatonics for $400 and such. Well I prefer to spend (not that much anyway lol) on a chrom than a custom made so expensive that I will be afraid of using.
The tone is really different of the diatonic so its a "fresh sound" which I really like as well
It also came to my attention I read there that you need several chroms depending on what you need to play
as a chrom in C can't do chording things on E so you need a chrom in A...
And well that is really crazy in my opinion, so for that I would just swich to a diatonic
Edit:
I like a lot of Jazz playing on it as by Toots or Mariano Massolo, some Blues playing by some of the chicago guys but I mean its not as frequently seen/heard
Last Edited by DannyRanch on Jan 06, 2015 8:54 AM
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Gnarly
1195 posts
Jan 06, 2015
8:56 AM
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You gotta baby a chrom, sticky slides and rattling windsavers will drive you nuts, but I love the button.
Check out Bill Barrett!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jan 06, 2015 9:02 AM
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nacoran
8197 posts
Jan 06, 2015
9:16 AM
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I think partially because this forum focuses on blues, I think, we get more diatonic guys. There are forums for chromatics too.
When I was in 6th we had a choice between learning spanish or french. All the 8th graders told us spanish was easier, so we, by maybe a 3 to 1 margin, ran off to spanish class. When we hit 9th grade and were moved over to the high school we got a very different story. All the spanish students said no, spanish has all sorts of exceptions to it's rules. You should have taken french.
Anyway, if you walk into a music store the guy behind the desk is probably a guitar player, a 8th grader in harp knowledge. If you're lucky he can tell you about cross harp and tell you what key harmonica you need to play the song you want to play. He hands you a diatonic and you are off to the races. That chromatic looks intimidating.
When you get right down to it though, and I have no study to back this up so maybe it just sounds intuitive, it's easier to learn a chromatic, at least from the perspective of oral mechanics. You learn tongue blocks and vibrato and when and how to push the little button. But oh, that little button! That little button is early french language. It gets us all worried. It's much easier to look at a little chart and know which diatonic harp to grab for which key. But the funny thing is, when you get to the oral mechanics, we picked the hard one. And maybe that's part of it too. The chromatic seems like an exercise in thinking. A diatonic seems like a lesson in doing. And then, when you get to the high school it turns out you've got a few years of the 'hard' one under your belt and people start showing you all sorts of exceptions to the rules- you can only bend between the pitches of the reeds- Unless you learn to overblow!.
And of course, that sound. For blues diatonic really is where it's at, and that's because for years the cheap and easy choice was a diatonic and using it turned it into the standard. The more it got used the more people expected it to be used.
Or maybe. That's my theory at least.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Gnarly
1196 posts
Jan 06, 2015
9:46 AM
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And yet, when I listen to that clip, I'm not thinking, "Wow, that's a chromatic harmonica", I'm thinking, "Wow, that is some bad-ass blues harmonica".
Second position, by the way.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jan 06, 2015 9:49 AM
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chromaticblues
1644 posts
Jan 06, 2015
10:04 AM
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@ Danny Yeah I agree with you it isn't as popular, but I think a major part of that is because of the price.
Chromatic is more complicated and as Nate stated can be intimidating at first. If you do a little research and learn how to play the chrom as your learning it really isn't much different than learning the diatonic.
Also I refurbish Chroms for people in the $100 to $150 range and also just sell chroms ($150 to $200) that I have traded for.
I use the term refurbish liberally.
Actually any chrom I work on or sell works better than it did the day it left the factory.
Playing a chrom that works well and is much more air tight is a big difference than stock chroms
Some chroms expensive chroms are good right out of the box, BUT all can be made to work better.
That was the biggest turn off for me years ago.
Spending a lot of money on a chrom and then find out some are good and some suck!
If it is a $30 diatonic that's one thing, but a $200 chrom that is leaky and hard to play is hard to swallow.
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Diggsblues
1617 posts
Jan 06, 2015
10:13 AM
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umpopular?
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Last Edited by Diggsblues on Jan 06, 2015 10:45 AM
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Little roger
53 posts
Jan 06, 2015
10:24 AM
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Back in the late 80s and early 90s, when Clarke and Piazza were omnipresent, it seemed like everyone was playing chromatic, including me. We were being labelled as the Rob Piazza and Honey of Europe (yes my wife is a blues pianist and played in my band at that time!) We were playing a LOT and lots of big stuff here. Somehow the chromatic sort of fizzled away as the west coast retro phase passed. I too played less and less. I only really started it again in earnest a couple of years ago. It is fantastic to have in your armoury, both as a player and for the audience. For certain slow blues, swings and boogies, it can be fantastic! Go for it!
Best
R
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DannyRanch
34 posts
Jan 06, 2015
10:41 AM
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Hahaha great sounds like a plan
What chroms do you recommend?
I looked at the Super Chromonica Deluxe by Hohner looks great, but not sure if its a good option or if there are better.
Also I think the Suzuki Chromatix sounds cool as well
Any suggestions?
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dougharps
800 posts
Jan 06, 2015
11:06 AM
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Chromatics are popular with me! I use both diatonics and chromatics in my kit to play blues, jazz, etc.
I got hooked on Hering chromatics when they were cheap, and have multiple keys, which made more jazz songs accessible to me. I recently got some Hering NOS replacement combs w/ plates in several keys, so I think I am set for a while.
I also have a couple 270s (and Chrometta 12s), too. The regular 270 is put together with nails and has an unsealed wood body that sometimes splits. The nails make it not so easy to repair/adjust.
Seydel, Suzuki, and Hohner all have reasonably good chromatics available these days. You have to choose which features you like.
I like a chromatic with a plastic body, bolted together for easy adjustments, straight tuned for easy repair (cross tuned can be confusing when working on it), with a smooth mouthpiece with a little depth (so mustache hairs don't get caught in the slide, and with cover plates that don't snag your mustache. Oh, it also has to sound good, have durable reeds with non-buzzing windsavers, and not be leaky. Not much to ask for, is it?
Ultimately you have to settle for the harp with some of the features you like that is affordable for you.
There is a discount Suzuki vendor on Amazon who does not follow Suzuki rules and for whose harps the warranty is void. Being new to chromatic, you should not want to buy one without some warranty. They can be finicky. If you know how to work on them and don't care about warranty you can buy at your own risk.
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Doug S.
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WinslowYerxa
747 posts
Jan 06, 2015
12:00 PM
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Lots of great comments on the chromatic's popularity on this thread.
Another angle is how harmonica was exposed to baby boomers in the popular music of the 1960s, which gave harmonica a new breath of life after the die-off in the 1950s, when saxophone and accordion also wilted in the face of the guitar onslaught.
Diatonic was everywhere in the 1960s, audible on top 40 radio, and you could actually see what kind of harp was being played on TV variety shows and in movies and newsclips. Highly visible players included Bob Dylan, John Lennon with early Beatles, Mick Jagger and Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones, Jack Bruce with Cream, Robert Plant with Led Zeppelin, Steve Winwood with Spencer Davis and Traffic (interesting how many of these were British), Al ‘Blind Owl’ Wilson with Canned Heat, John Sebastian with Lovin’ Spoonful. If you dug a little deeper you found Butterfield and Musselwhite; a little deeper still and you got the mostly diatonic blues styles.
The chromatic? Visible exposure (at least that interested the surging population of that period’s youth) was pretty much limited to Stevie Wonder. Yeah, you occasionally heard chromatic but knowing what it was because you couldn’t see what was making those sounds. You might sometimes hear Toots Thielemans (Sesame Street, for instance) and whoever was making harmonica sounds of an unseen and unknown nature with the Beach Boys, Carpenters, and others (mostly Tommy Morgan). And if you were to see them, they'd be your parents' age, which didn't help motivate a young person fired up by the the blazing youth-oriented ethos of the time
Stevie’s approach, by the way, was very intuitive and organic to the chromatic. If there had been 9 or 10 more like him (in approach, I mean, his talent is exceedingly rare) in heavy pop rotation and visible on TV in those days, perhaps the story might be different.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 06, 2015 12:05 PM
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ted burke
44 posts
Jan 06, 2015
1:17 PM
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I don't hate chromatic, but I think it's a feeble instrument for the blues. Octave work in a blues tune sounds better, fuller, gutsier on a diatonic. And chromatics don't bend worth a damn, in my view. Chromatics are wonderful classical and jazz instruments and are intended to play concert music, more complex music. A master of chromatic playing the instrument as intended is an awesome thing; using it to do train impressions seems like a waste of time and money.Even in the hands of "masters" who know the mechanics of chromatic harmonica and, I suspect, have grounding in theory, chromatic does not sound bluesy to my ears. I am not talking the more evolved jazz-blues and hard bop genre we can get from Cannonball Adderly, Art Blakey, Horace Silver or Miles Davis(ala "Walkin", "Cooking"): the chromatic's capacity for more intricate lines and subtler inflections can be used to superb degree. The sort of blues I refer to is the sort we most often talk about here, which is Chicago blues, country blues, folk blues, rock blues, ie, diatonic blues. To my ears this is the kidn of music that needs a deeper, louder, sound, a sound that comes closet to the human voice, the singing voice, at its most emotionally pitched and immediate. The diatonic in the hands of an earnest player who means business with the blues he's playing is, for me, more impressive, more interesting, more truly the blues than what even the most skilled chromatic player comes up. One may pursue their love of blues chromatic all they want. I think chromatic belongs in other genres. Just my two cents.
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Ted Burke
__________________
ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Jan 06, 2015 2:46 PM
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Gnarly
1198 posts
Jan 06, 2015
1:30 PM
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In my opinion, a lot depends on how airtight it is--and don't forget half valving.
Of course, I am not primarily a blues musician, I get hired for other genres.
CAPTCHA looks to be yBulky
EDIT The original poster asked about the harp community, not the blues community. Although I acknowledge the current situation (Blues Forum, albeit modern), in all fairness, the OP asked about hoi polloi.
PPS Bill is not yet feeble LOL
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jan 06, 2015 1:34 PM
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WinslowYerxa
748 posts
Jan 06, 2015
2:00 PM
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Feeble instrument for the blues? Not in the hands of many of the great players! Just look at the magnificent blues chromatic playing of Little Walter, George Smith, Rod Piazza, Paul deLay, William Clarke, Dennis Gruenling, Mitch Kashmar, among many.
The diatonic is good at some things (like train imitations) but that doesn't make the chromatic feeble. That's like saying that you don't get protein from a potato and therefore it's a feeble food.
Here's one of my takes on blues chromatic (Key of B on a C chromatic), called Blue Chrome.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 06, 2015 2:19 PM
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jbone
1847 posts
Jan 06, 2015
2:42 PM
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Danny I am also a follower and user of chromatic harps. Not as much as I'd like but it's a very cool thing to have available. I play mostly 3rd position and my current axes are a Hering 5148 12 hole low C, a 5148 middle C, and a Suzuki SCX 12 hole in G. All serve me well. I am about to possibly get a Bb as well.
Guys who informed my chromatic playing have been: James Cotton, Little Walter, William Clarke, and Carey Bell. There have been others but these guys got my attention. My playing is very basic, much more can be done than what I do, but I find that I know enough to sound decent and be happy.
I don't know about anybody else but I like to have options for playing that few others have around me. Chromatic is one way to have extra tricks in my bag and it's a very uplifting experience to get some of that big bold beautiful sound going that nobody else close by can do! It was easier for me once I got the hang of 3rd position on a diatonic.
Yes they cost more. But yes in my book they have proven their worth.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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garry
551 posts
Jan 06, 2015
2:53 PM
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Nothing wrong with it, but it's a different sound, and not the sound I want to make.
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GMaj7
584 posts
Jan 06, 2015
3:34 PM
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Good thread.
A lot of folks who never played an instrument can learn some cross harp pretty quickly. A few months of lining up buddies and purchasing sunglasses and fedora.. BOOM! .. you are a blues harp guy..
Chromatic - on the other hand - has 12 different breath patters multiplied by the complexity of a button. Some argue it is one of the hardest instruments in the world to play. It is probably why so many of the great chromatic players around are multi-instrumentalists.
They can also be a royal pain to maintain. Fortunately, newer models come with screw together construction and can be easily field stripped.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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GMaj7
585 posts
Jan 06, 2015
3:46 PM
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Here's a Saxony demo...Good player.. although it isn't blues.. still good
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Gnarly
1200 posts
Jan 06, 2015
4:01 PM
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Last Edited by Gnarly on Jan 06, 2015 4:03 PM
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gmacleod15
244 posts
Jan 06, 2015
6:15 PM
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Little Walter made me buy one about a year ago. They really sound cool amped. I am very much still learning but love the sound.
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MBH member since 2009-03-24
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jbone
1848 posts
Jan 06, 2015
7:25 PM
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Cotton did one called "23 Hours Too Long" way back when. It's the first song I ever learned on chromatic. I still work on Wm. Clarke's version of "The Work Song". That LW piece above is a great one to work with, it can teach a lot.
Great thread!
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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kudzurunner
5226 posts
Jan 06, 2015
7:33 PM
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Feeble instrument for the blues? Yikes. I just don't agree. And I can barely play the thing.
If the chromatic is unpopular among diatonic players--and I question the premise--then I'll go out on a limb and say: the only possible reason that could be true is that in order to make maximal use of a chromatic, you actually have to know music. By contrast, you don't have to know music to play a diatonic. You can just blow in and out on chords and learn a blues scale.
On a chromatic, you get one pretty easy blues scale: third position. On a C chromatic, you get the key of D. That's all I really need. I can take what I know from playing a C diatonic in D and 90% of it works on the chrom.
But beyond that, you've got a $200-300 instrument that you're underutilizing--UNLESS you actually take some jazz lessons and learn the thing, the way you'd learn a piano.
A few hardy blues souls will learn first position as well.
I think too many diatonic players are intimidated by the chrom. If you can play third position on a diatonic, there is zero reason not to buy a chrom and start messing with it. You're already over the hump.
But if you're a pure cross-harp, second-position player, you'll steer clear.
That, I think, is where the OP's sense of it being a neglected instrument comes from.
Just buy one, get in there, and start making noise in third position. It's all there for you. If you overblow--so much the better. You'll know what a few of the extra notes are for. :)
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 06, 2015 7:34 PM
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Goldbrick
817 posts
Jan 06, 2015
10:46 PM
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I think most of the reasons have been covered.
The attractions of diatonic are the size, the sound, the simplicity of design, the history and the price.
The chromatic seems large, complex , expensive and a bit wonky. Yes there are great players but I always kinda feel that if I was gonna put in the time it takes to be a good chrome player -I would rather learn sax or clarinet
Of course you CAN play blues on it if you want to but I am sure you can play blues on bagpipes too.
I know I for one have no interest in playing other types of music on harp than blues Thats the sound I like and its a diatonic sound The chromatic has no appeal to me
If I want to play jazz or country I pick up my guitar as I prefer that sound.
Diatonic is made for the blues
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hooktool
154 posts
Jan 07, 2015
12:21 AM
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The harp-l list is almost entirely chromatic, there's a lot of info and music there. Google it
John
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hooktool
155 posts
Jan 07, 2015
12:21 AM
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duplicate post, pardon.
Last Edited by hooktool on Jan 07, 2015 12:22 AM
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kudzurunner
5227 posts
Jan 07, 2015
4:20 AM
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I haven't read every last post on this thread, so it's possible somebody has pointed this out, but one good reason for a diatonic player to pick up a chrom only shows up once you start playing gigs: diversity. If you're a harp player leading a band, you need a changeup pitch. Chromatic is one way of getting that. I don't play it a lot, but it's a cool sound, a different sound, and in that respect it broadens my show a little.
Plus it's fun swinging a big hunk of metal around.
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DannyRanch
35 posts
Jan 07, 2015
5:49 AM
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Yeah I could not agree more with you Kudzu.
The "tone" of the chrom is incredible, Amped is such a beast.
Winslow thats a pretty awesome playing and sound. That along with playing of Little Walter and some other fellas prove that the chrom can even sound much better (in some scenarios such as 3P) than a Diatonic IMO.
I love third position, is my favorite position on the harp at the moment, I'm definitely gonna get one, and start playing third. Someday somehow I will start to get deeper on it.
I remember when I first got a diatonic, I started playing beatles songs and bob dylan stuff, and I told to myself I would never play blues since it looks super complicated, now I'm messing harps and thinking in overblows and learning the same song on 2 or 3 different positions...
Music is great, you should not get limitations and keep an open mind.
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blingty
61 posts
Jan 07, 2015
5:58 AM
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Some great reasons listed in the other posts on why chromatic is not popular relative to the diatonic harmonica. It's more expensive and often we harmonica players complain about spending 30 bucks on a harp... from a manufacturer's point of view, how are you going to build a version of that that is at least twice as complex and mass produce it at a price that looks attractive to harmonica players?
But when you think about it, 12 keys * backup factor (>1) + 12 keys natural minor + 12 keys country tuning (if you use those or other tunings) = plenty $
Or 12 x custom overblow models (ok, so maybe we only need G, A, Bb, C, D, F at a push and ordinary diatonics for the rest) = plenty $
Another reason for the chromatic's lack of popularity might be the sound of *some* of the players, maybe some of the earlier players, that might not be considered as expressive as the blues diatonic players. I think that's related to the sound difference Ted mentioned.
And of course the big one - you can't bend it in the same way as you can bend a diatonic, unless you half-valve (you can bend the chrom but in a different way). These last two reasons were the reasons it took me so long to pick up chrom, although with hindsight there are plenty of very expressive chrom players..
Here are some more good reasons to learn the chrom:
- on-pitch notes for all notes
- same instrument for 12 keys
- pitch range for a given key is not dependent on the key of the song - well, it kind of is for the melody, but not for improvising. Michelle posted on here a while back about playing in C major on a diatonic and pitch ranges.
My own reason for picking up chrom was that I wanted to play jazz, had played overblow diatonic pretty seriously for a few years and even with a lot of effort, didn't sound great when I went into remote keys... and my musical progress was slower than other instrumentalists in the classes I was taking, as I was bogged down in the basic mechanics of overblows and overdraws. I then reckoned I should put my money on chromatic as the notes are all there and I thought that it possibly had more potential for technological improvement in the future - i.e. I said at the time that, the full dual-reed bends were not there in chromatic harmonicas, but if the technology arrives in the future while I'm still playing, I'll at least be in a position where I might be able to take advantage of multi-key playing and have the expressiveness of the diatonic. This day may have arrived with Brendan's Twin Harmonica System, time will tell.
It has been a complex enough journey so far to make the music I want on the chrom, but so would it be with overblow or x-reed diatonic or stacked diatonics.
And with the chrom we save money on having one harp... :-) Why not play both diatonic and chrom? They are complementary to each other, as has been said by others here.
Great topic BTW.
blingty
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blintgy like soundcloud, ug
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chromaticblues
1645 posts
Jan 07, 2015
7:37 AM
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@Ted Burke
You work on harmonicas you should know the more you make harps air tight the more you can get out of them.
That's the biggest problem with Chroms. The "cheaper" models aren't very air tight which limits the possibilities and slows down your playing.
You put a GOOD chrom in the hands of someone that can play it and my god it is every bit expressive as a diatonic!
All in all I absolutely agree the Chrom is not as popular as the diatonic (I don't even think it's close really), but that doesn't mean it can't be played at a very high level.
Winslow had a couple interesting points about popular chrom players like Stevie Wonder bringing the chrom into the spot light. Who plays the chrom that is seen on TV? That's THE reason!
@blingty Half valving opens up a lot of doors!
Most of examples people have given here are the stereotypical way of playing the chrom. Half valving a GOOD harp changes the possibilities which in time changes the way you play. If the harp is tight enough half valving will make the sound quality become more diatonic like.
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blingty
62 posts
Jan 07, 2015
7:53 AM
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Hi chromaticblues,
Agreed on your points there regarding popularity of chromatic players and good chroms. I play half-valved on diminished chromatic and another tuning and it goes a along way... but as you correctly point out, the chromatic harmonica has to be very airtight.
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blintgy like soundcloud, ug
Last Edited by blingty on Jan 07, 2015 8:10 AM
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barbequebob
2810 posts
Jan 07, 2015
10:59 AM
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I play chromatics and have them in the keys of C, Bb, F, and G, and don't just play them in 3rd position (the position most blues players tend to play them in), but also quite a bit in 1st position as well.
You kinda have to treat them as a different instrument and the average diatonic player dooms themselves for failure on chromatics because too many don't want to learn the positions and the scale patterns, and most of all, they tend to play FAR too hard on them, especially when bending and chromatics just do not respond very well to being played so damned hard.
Chromatics have many more places to leak air and so when compared to a diatonic, it is aerodynamically ineffiecent, partly because the air needs to travel further away than with a diatonic.
The tone of a chromatic is going to be different because of the windsaver valves, which has always been the bane of chromatics and that's generally the very first thing that tends to fail on a chromatic, and tho by removing those valves will make it easier to bend, but the Catch 22 for doing that is that it will make a chromatic harder to play because, if you're into how a car works, the windsavers acts like the way a turbocharger does in a car, recirculating the air to give it more power.
As far as altering the tone from the windsavers, it's something that Pat Missin pointed out because they also act as a dampener of the many of the odd numbered upper harmonic overtones and since 95% of chromatics are tuned to ET tuning, the same chord being played on a chromatic will sound far less harsh than on a diatonic harp tuned to ET tuning because of the dampening effect from the windsavers.
Notes on a chromatic can be bent, but you CANNOT do it like the way the average player does it on a diatonic, and too often the average diatonic player FORCES a note to bend by a HUGE increase in their breath force the force it to happen, but if you do that on a chromatic, the note will blank out completely on you and for bending on a chromatic, it's more about working the embouchure and the shaping of it as well as the inside shape of your mouth, but too often the average diatonic player is too damned hard headed to get the message.
Chromatics that are the easiest to bend are the ones made by Hering, or any company making them using a more raised mouthpieces, much like the long discontinued Hohner CBH series or the CX-12 Jazz model, but in the last year and a half, I've found a way to bend on mouthpieces that aren't raised but placing the mouthpiece about roughly 1/4 of an inch less in my mouth than I normally would to compensate. However, when bending on a chromatic, you cannot bend the note beyond 1/4 to 1/2 step lower and if you try to go past that, the note is guaranteed to totally blank out on you.
Personally, I feel since the overblow technique has become so popular, that's part of the reason why you don't see the chromatic in as much use as you once did because the diatonic has become more fully chromatic with the technique, but there are still some things a chromatic is still better equipped for doing that bends and overblows can sometimes be too slow that just pressing the slide on a chromatic can do easier, tho there are some things that are gonna be easier the other way around.
Breath control is a very important technique that too many players tend to overlook, and on a chromatic, it's even more important.
It is a different sound and feel, but it is up to you as a player to learn to adjust and make it work to your advantage.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
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Gnarly
1202 posts
Jan 07, 2015
11:24 AM
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I switched to bebop tuning early on when I started learning chromatic. You lower blow 4 and 8 to Bb, so the blow chord is C7 and the draw chord is Dm6 (or G9 with no root).
This is the tuning Bill Barrett uses and it lends itself to the blues.
I think in positions on the chrom, for the most part, but also know what the letter names (and tonal center numbers) are--and have mostly stuck with the key of C, rather than using keyed chroms.
I agree that diatonic harmonica is the go to blues sound, but am just defending the chrom as a blues instrument--hell, I play blues mandolin too . . .
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chromaticblues
1646 posts
Jan 07, 2015
11:33 AM
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@blingty
That's cool! I didn't know you were aware of half valving.
@ BqBob
The reason the harps you mention bend easier is because they are long slot "C" harps.
I don't know about the Hering though (I've never owned one). I think hering have thinner reeds, but the CX12, CBH and 270 Deluxe have longer reeds which are easier to manipulate(vibrato is better also).
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barbequebob
2811 posts
Jan 07, 2015
12:17 PM
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Herings have always been easier to bend out of the box, but the older ones with the wooden combs didn't have the raised mouthpieces on them, and so they were more difficult to bend, but since they went to the raised mouthpieces since the 90's, they're really easy to bend as long as you don't do what diatonic players tend to do, and that's force the bend by playing too hard.
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jbone
1850 posts
Jan 07, 2015
7:54 PM
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My first several chromatics ended up with wrecked reeds due to too much force. The big difference to me is, you don't need to bend anything on a chromatic.
I have never had one repaired since I could buy a reed plate/comb set for those early ones from Hering. That is not a real cheap option but still much less than a whole new harmonica.
My first two chromatics were actually Hohner Chromettas and they were very inexpensive and easy to play. I killed them both as well.
These days I am a much less forceful player and I rely on amplification either through my amp or a p.a. channel to get the sound out. Probably I will also make use of a repair guy if/when it becomes necessary to. I do have several nice ones to work with and a much better grasp these days of how NOT to play them to ensure long life.
Adam hit it very nicely. If you are fronting it's nice to have a bigger harp to flash and a different sound to put out here and there to keep an audience's attention.
Personally I love the big sound as well.
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WinslowYerxa
749 posts
Jan 08, 2015
2:15 AM
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A lot of nonsense is talked about bending on chromatic.
Listen to the first few seconds of this 12-bar blues in E played on a C chromatic:
Spanish Changes
Around 0:08 you can hear me bending the B below Middle C down from B to A - two full semitones. I do it quietly simply because that's what's called for artistically. I could bend it more loudly but didn't want to.
My point is that notes on a fully valved chromatic bend FARTHER than on a diatonic because they're not limited by an opening reed. When you half-valve a chromatic, you make bending easier and fuller-sounding, but you sacrifice the wider valved bends.
Do long-slot reed help? I kind of doubt it. I think it's more down to airtightness and reed adjustment. I find far more differences among different individual instruments, even of the same model, than I do between models.
And no, I don't alter my embouchure to get these bends.
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 08, 2015 2:17 AM
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chromaticblues
1648 posts
Jan 08, 2015
9:19 AM
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@ winslow
"Do long-slot reed help? I kind of doubt it.
I'm surprised you don't know that?
I agree making chroms as air tight as possible is the biggest factor no matter what you play, but not all chroms are created equal and long sloted C chroms do indeed play differently than the short sloters.
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nacoran
8203 posts
Jan 08, 2015
12:39 PM
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Another way to look at it- why do so few harmonica players play acordina? It's a free reed wind instrument, so it's similar to harmonica in that way. It's got a different set of movements and muscle memory to learn to play than a diatonic harmonica, but so does a chromatic. Yes, it's price entry level is even worse than a chromatic, but it's a cool instrument too. Most guitar players I know can, in a pinch play bass. They will complain it hurts their fingers and they don't get as many strings, but most of the muscle memory transfers ruffly. I figure I've probably got 1000 hours of actually playing harmonica under my belt, and lots more learning about harmonica. That muscle memory, in terms of chromatic, means I'm good enough on chromatic to play a couple simple nursery rhyme melodies on chromatic as long as I don't have to use the slide, or if I only play blow notes I can play whatever scale that works out to be (it sounds kind of Eastern European). That's it. In the end, chromatic is different instrument. There is some overlap, but not enough so that you can just jump from one to the other without knowing what you are doing.
I thought about asking for an acordina for Christmas, but all my friends would have to pool in together and wouldn't have to buy me a present again for the next ten years. :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Gnarly
1204 posts
Jan 08, 2015
1:08 PM
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I certainly can't afford one of these!
Easier to find links if you spell it accordina.
My post is not showing up on the forum, so I am inserting more words--maybe that will help, maybe not.
Melodions are much less expensive than the accordina, is the sound close enough?
The post seems to have been caught by the spam filter, oh well . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jan 08, 2015 1:13 PM
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WinslowYerxa
751 posts
Jan 08, 2015
2:16 PM
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Acordina is a WAY different instrument from harmonica:
-- All blow
-- requires fingering scales on a dimi-tuned button board.
-- Sounds unique, different from both harmonicas and accordions.
Acordina is mostly played by chromatic button accordionists such as Richard Galliano and Ludovic Beier. It's a nice instrument and gives em even more of a sonic palette. But hell, harmonica player bitch about having to learn to play in different keys on chromatic - this is every bit as demanding, and requires fingering studies (although it actually has only three key positions - home on the outside row, home note on the middle row, and home note on the inside row).
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Winslow
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 08, 2015 11:54 PM
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ted burke
46 posts
Jan 08, 2015
7:09 PM
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The late Norton Buffalo was one of the few chromatic harmonica players who inspired me,mostly because, I suppose, that he had equally awesome awesome facility on both diatonic and chromatic. This clip has him performing with his frequent musical partner guitarist Roy Rogers (himself a beyond-impressive slide player) which highlights Norton accompanying Rogers as he sings; Buffalo keeps rhythm with some deft chugging and spot on chord work on diatonic, switches without pause (and near seamlessness) to chromatic for an energized solo that is fleet, sweet and which absolutely swings, and a second chorus immediately following on diatonic which is more breathtaking chugging and ace rhythm work , ending with an some superbly placed fast riffs , up and down the scale. This man can swing, this man can bop.
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nacoran
8204 posts
Jan 08, 2015
9:21 PM
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Gnarly, it's interesting, I find links spelled both ways and Google doesn't give me that snarky 'did you mean' on either.
Winslow, yes it is! And it's certainly would be an even steeper learning curve than a chromatic, but my point is, switching between a couple different tunings- major, minor, harmonic minor, solo etc., isn't that big a deal for a diatonic player, but chromatic is a big leap. The first day I picked up a minor tuned harp I could play real music on it. It's that whole barrier to entry, and like Adam said, it really does demand some theory (or a ton of rote memorization) compared to a diatonic.
When I was first learning harmonica I focused on tremolos. My goal was to use the 2 harp style of play, which I think kind of works out as chromatic for people averse to buttons, but I found that even that required more quickly accessible theory in my brain than what I had. (I know the notes on a piano and can tell you the sharps and flats in a key if you give me a few moments to figure it out).
I've also bought a Turboslide, but I use the slide on that more as a whammy bar (to good effect I think) but not really as a way to make it a fully chromatic instrument. I'm really hoping they develop a version that whammies the draw notes. I use it to mess around with The Beatles 'Tomorrow Never Knows'. :)
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Nate
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WinslowYerxa
752 posts
Jan 08, 2015
11:53 PM
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Nice Norton clip. He's playing second position on both diatonic and chromatic—he's using a 16-hole chromatic specially tuned down from C to A. (He also had 12-hole chromatics in various keys, as he always liked to play chromatic in second (not third!) position.)
That CBH 2016 chro he's playing has the slide button at the back of the comb instead of the front. I remember seeing him play keyboard with one hand and 2016 with the other , and using his shoulder to bump the slide in.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 1:17 AM
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SuperBee
2317 posts
Jan 09, 2015
12:51 AM
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its not unpopular with me. i love it. can't play much and haven't really tried much, but it may be the way of the future. certainly my wife says my playing sounds like the future...as in that i sound like an old man when i play chromatic harp.
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Frank101
51 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:44 AM
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Much of the appeal of the diatonic is the old Steinbeck "carry it around in your jeans pocket" aesthetic, which is tough to do with a chromatic, especially a 16er (" ... or are you just glad to see me?")
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MP
3277 posts
Jan 09, 2015
3:37 PM
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I love my 16 holer chro and play it every gig. The band digs the sound too which is a plus.
As mentioned above, it is not as popular as the diatonic.
I have a theory. People are daunted by chromatics because they appear to be more difficult to learn than playing a diatonics. perhaps they are more difficult but third position on chromatic is fairly easy to learn..and fun too!.------
.
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arnenym
332 posts
Jan 10, 2015
3:26 PM
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I do not like the sound from a chromatic!
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cyclodan
101 posts
Jan 10, 2015
4:15 PM
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arnenym, to each their own, but seriously, how can you listen to this and not like it????
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