Following a recent thread by MajorDude concerning difficulties in finding the notes and appropriate harps to play on Minor songs I have taken a look from a practical viewpoint at a minor blues song.
For an example I am using the riff played by Paul Butterfield at the start of the Thrill is gone. So if we want to play along with him we have to know the song key. In this case it is in A minor and if you don’t know that you might be lucky to find the song key you’re looking for on a google search.
If you have a good ear you could hum a note while the song is playing that blends in well throughout a passage of the song. And then hum into a chromatic Tuner or a play keyboard key that matches your hum to establish what the note is. So say you correctly identify the note and therefore the key as A in this case, you then have to decide if it is Amajor or Aminor (If the sound of the song is kind of sad then it could be the minor which it is in this instance --not very technical. I know) So it’s A minor
Now take a look at the circle of fifths diagram and go to A the first stepping stone (don’t look at the inner circle of relative minor keys as they are not relevant here) because A is the reference key letter in this case whether the song be major or minor.
Next go anti clockwise one step and land on D which is stepping stone 2 (often known as 2nd position a position often used in blues and see if you can pick out some notes on the D harmonica that fit well. Draw 2 is always a good start in 2nd position as it is the note A on a D harp the same as the song key letter.
This is the harp key of D that Butterfield is using on the Thrill is gone and the riff goes like this.
-4/-4*+4-3*, -4+4-3*-2-2, -4+4-3*+4, -4+4-3*-2-2, -2-3*+4-4*+4-3*+4-2-3*-2-2, -4+4-3*-2-2. (You have some half step bends on draw 3 and 4 which can be harder to play on the slightly high key of a harmonica in D) but it works ok and if it’s good for enough for Butterfield……. :)
It is sometimes said that using 3rd or 5th positions work well on songs in a minor key so let’s try them out. Going back to the circle of 5th’s and this time go 2 steps anti-clockwise from the song key letter of A to land on stepping stone 3 which is G and the harmonica key you will need to play in 3rd position as follows.
Now this looks easier to play along with Paul as there is only one bend required on draw 6.
Next try out 5th position by landing on the 5th stepping stone going anti-clockwise from Song key letter A which as you will see is F. So using an F harmonica as follows. -3/-3**-3*-2, -3-3**-2+2+2, -3-3**+3-3**.-3-3**-2+2+2, +2-2-3**-3*-3**+3-3**+2-2+2+2,-3, -3-3**-2+2+2
Not so easy this one as it is harder to play draw bends on the high pitch of an F harp and you will see that single and double step bends are needed on draw 3. You could have similar problems even if you choose to play a Low F harp as bends are tricky to play on the low pitched harps.
So you can see that although we are using 3 different key harmonicas of D,G and F we will still be in tune playing along with the video above by using the different hole patterns shown in each case.
Hope this of use to someone.
BTW There may be other positions or keys that work well, 4th on a C harp?... +5+4overblow-4+4 ....maybe not!
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Feb 09, 2016 2:41 AM
Hi. I am just starting on the forum and am not theoretically schooled. So i understand what you wrote here, more from experience than from music theory. I played the three harps to the song and know what you mean. I don't yet know how to search forum other than one page at time ( on iphone) as I didnt see a search option or see it noted in FAQ's. However you seem on the point of what I was interested in for Riders on the Storm. I was told it was in G but perhaps the guys I was playing with were just playing it in G. I suspect A minor based on how it sounds playing D harp same as with to Butterfield. At any rate while playing to Door's record, I found that i can manage ( but struggling and working hard to get all notes ) on D or low D or A. D is overall best but each of the others are better in some parts. So I wondered if anyone had experience with the song, especially trying to follow the keyboard . The D works for all the rain scales and other notes of rain and I decided it is the right key and a worthy challenge to better master those bends and upper notes both from technical and memory of what I am hitting. Especially as how upper notes reverse the blow draw relationship of which note is higher. Also, The lower bends on D all of which must be used, sounded awful initially more than I expected. Is there another key I missed? Like F? If it was in G, I would have thought i would have used C, but that doesnt seem at all to work overall anywhere as nearly well as D. On this topic, for minor keys, what about the Lee Oscar minor tuned series? I found this info below( beyond me) on GMT ( guitar music theory) in case it helps( if you were even interested, or even needed this info to help answer me if you were so inclined. If it is unnecessary, I apologize for being over inclusive. “Riders on the Storm” by The Doors is a good example of Dorian mode and modal interchange. The song begins in the key of E minor, but with notes and chords relative to D major, which produces E Dorian mode. In the PDF guitar tab below, which is a guitar arrangement based on my own interpretation, you can see E-Gt 1 playing a bass line that outlines Em and A chords. These chords are ii and V from the D major scale. If you want to count from the tonic chord, Em, then it’s a i-IV chord progression (that’s a minor one-chord and a major four-chord). Use D major scale patterns over this progression to produce the E Dorian mode sound. You can also simply play E minor pentatonic. Starting at bar 5, the chord progression focuses on A, but this time Am, not major. The music has changed keys here, using notes and chords now relative to G major. Am and Bm are the second and third chords in G major. So this section can be considered a temporary usage of A Dorian mode. Use G major scale patterns over it to produce the A Dorian mode sound. Bars 9-10, chords D and C, can also be thought of as belonging to G major. The relative minor to G major is E minor, which is also known as the natural minor or Aeolian mode. So this song is borrowing from two modes, E Aeolian (D major scale) and E Dorian (G major scale). Having a piece of music center on one primary tonic chord while changing modes. One more thing to point out, the bass line at the beginning is outlining the chords Em-A, but the second guitar, which is based on the keyboards in the original recording, is playing pieces of the chords D-Em. That’s part of a D chord while the bass is playing part of an A chord. Though it doesn’t seem right, it sounds great to me!" Anyway I hope this conforms to rules for forum and appreciate any help I can get. My playing level is above my knowlege pay grade.
thanks mr grey owl....love the chord sound of natural minor tuned harps but also use 3rd position....summertime,stjames infirmary and house of the rising sun all in minor keys
You are missing something important. As great as Butterfield sounds, what he is playing is very repetitive. This is because he's not really moving through the IV chord because he can't due to the unavailability of the minor 6th in second position. If you want to replicate what PB is playing, there is no need to resort to fifth position and it is more difficult if you do so. BUT, if you use fifth position, you can play more fluid lines because you have the minor 6th available at 4B to use to move through the minor IV chord (minor 6 is the minor 3 of the IV chord). This tune is most commonly played in B minor, but that really doesn't matter.
Moral of the story: the position you choose for playing in a minor key will be different depending on what sort of phrasing you want to utilize. THE THRILL IS GONE plays well in fifth position, but one would not use fifth position to play the sort of line PB has chosen to play on this tune. FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 08, 2016 6:31 PM
Re: RIDERS ON THE STORM This tune is in Em (relative minor to G major) and drove me crazy trying to figure out what harp to use. The solution is to use TWO harps-- D in third position and G in third position. Change which harp you are playing as the chords change; it works beautifully.
Try 6th position for Thrill is Gone. You get the b5 BB sings all over it and a super juicy arpeggio for that bVl7 chord. And the minor I & lV chords. And all the other melody notes. ----------
Last Edited by JInx on Feb 08, 2016 8:59 PM
Brougham:- I had a go at Riders on the storm a few years ago though I wasn't playing the rain sequence at the start or the melody for that matter but fills around my vocals. Not knowing anything about playing in other positions at this time I used my default 2nd postion. Although the original song is in E minor I would have used an A harp in 2nd position but I as I wanted to change the pitch of the song to make it more vocal friendly for me I changed backing track to F minor and used a Bb harp in 2nd position on the following soundfile which gave me a reasonable selection of notes to use (BTW I did sing a slightly different melody to Jim Morrison). I'll take a look at the suggestions and look at other positions. BTW were you wanting to play the actual melody throughout after the opening sequence?
With the song key of Em a D harp works well for the rain sequence though I think you need a double draw bend on 2 and 3 at the lower end of the tumbling run.
It could be good to use a Low D harp (middle Octave) for the left hand keyboard/bass riff at the start which avoids playing the half step bend on hole 3 on a regular D and adds a bit more of an atmsopheric sound (maybe record this background riff separately and lay the right hand keyboard stuff later). I'll take a further look and expand when I have time
Brougham. This would make a great work out as you mentioned, to hit that descending riff at speed with the breathe change on the upper octave and then the tricky low end bends! I’ve written it out as an aide-memoire because I wouldn’t mind having a go at it at sometime.
Song Key E minor played in 3rd position on a D harp
Rolling Left hand keyboard riff throughout most of the song:-
-4-6-5-6, -4+6-7+6
As I mentioned above it would be cool to play it on a low D (on a loop machine would be great)
intro flourishes after 4 measures
-4+6-6-8-6 Edit to correct typo it should be -4,-5,-6,-8,-6
Brougham, there is a forum search function. On the left side, on the same tab as the blues forum there is a little pull out with a link to it. Or, you can always just type your search and then @modernbluesharmonica.com into Google and it will search the site. Unfortunately, on a specialty site Google can be a bit of a pain because some of the keywords you'll need will be in almost every post, but if you can be really specific you can find stuff. :)
@Grey Owl: Thankyou so very much for this explanation. Your elucidation makes the theory a reality! I found myself in a jam last night that humbled me because I did not know how to choose the right harp for this exact song. A very kind & experienced Jerry Fiero schooled me on stage and helped me to really understand this process. I will never forget this lesson!
I'm very pleased this was helpful as it took a while for me to get my head around this which is why tried to explain it in the most straightforward way I could.
Thanks to Grey Owl and Narcoran Nate for the great start to my forum experience. I still dont see any pull down tab to a link in the forum for search. Perhaps because I am on iphone vs desktop? GreyOwl, I enjoyed your recording of Storm, but being a sloppy reader, i missed that you changed song key to F and therefore harp to Bb, and was thinking how could this be a D harp or am I really missing out on what these babies can do!? ( ha ha sheesh). But i figured it out. So, i found your tabbing interesting. The first parts before the rain scale are different from what i do so much that I am going to recheck what I think I am hearing or consider that there may be different versions? Or perhaps I didn't understand what part you referring to? I assumed this was the starting part of the keyboard? ( and on D or Low D?)
I do After lightening: On D harp -4,-5,-6,-8,-6 -5,5,-4,5, -5,5,4,-4 (Or tongue slap for crisper and faster effect: -5,-4,5,6, -5,5,4,-4)
For the scale, thanks for writing it down. I pretty much did exactly same, except i learned from you the very last bottom part, i was doing my own thing and missed the very last -2**-1+2+1-1. But overall I was happy to learn I was on right track. I wasn't going for singing melody so much as the keyboard part because there is plenty there and its great though challenging for harp especially on one single harp key ( D). The guys i will hopefully have a shot a doing this with are all guitars and base, so I will be the keyboard on harp. Those 2 and 3 draws are tricky to get sweet. And while I may use low D for lower part of solo as you noted, its a good exercise learning how to command all the bend stops. Just 2 and 3 to do it. Likewise i may try G for some of it and look some more at A but it can be all done on D. I just didn't like seeing my initial limitations revealed but i am making progress and learning something. As much as I think I know i find always there is more I dont. I will perhaps try to record something when I am happy with it and can figure out how to upload that ( I read one needs a site to hold the upload and provide link, so I am not there yet). I will be interested in what you come up with when you take another look at Storm. Its already taught me a lot as did Whammer Jammer, Juke and Roller Coaster especially when I relearned it all tongue blocking.
Brougham You're welcome. Aha I made a typo on that 1st part. You are correct on the -4,-5,-6,-8,-6 but I think the following part is as I wrote it -5+6-5+5-4+5-5+5+4-4*/-4 those last two notes being that quick slip off one keyboard key to another. The rapid descending run gets a bit tricky to hear at the end but I think it goes down to draw 1 and it's cool that you start on the draw 10 and utilise the whole harp.
Yes of course you are right. The problem is i am new to tabbing and somewhat dyalexic at reading them or music ( which I dont) and also i have noticed i first hear and play what I am ready to hear and play then later have often heard it better and played accordingly. I have heard there are programs to slow down music and perhaps, if i even just used sonething other than my cd player or normal control on song player on iphone i might have better control over listening closely to a part. But i often stubbornly obstruct myself. That is why I am thrilled to finally start accessing what others know and learn from them and not just as beat I can discover on own. ( eventually i will be more succint, maybe also) So thanks again
I'm seeing a lot of over-thinking here. A minor key is definitely going to have a minor third, and most likely a flatted seventh. It may also have a minor sixth and a flatted ninth. Being fluent in fifth position will put you in good stead to address all of these.
Last Edited by