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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Reading Music on harp
Reading Music on harp
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DannyRanch
71 posts
Mar 04, 2016
4:46 PM
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Hi Folks,
So a new doubt has emerged, and it comes to reading standard notation on the harmonica.
I don't know how to play chromatic harmonica for example, but I play it a lot with people when I have some charts and can follow the music notes, its cool, but put me to improvise on the chrom and I'm lost, but thats another topic.
Sometimes I try to play diatonic and follow something on a real book for example, but how can this be done?
Do you guys learn the whole note layout on multiple keyed diatonics?
I know all the notes on the C harp (bends, OB) and when I play on another harp (be it 2nd or 3rd) I don't know the note names so I just play it referring the notes with the proper intervals for 2nd or 3rd, it helps when playing a line with a horn or unison parts with a guitar, but it I try to read music notation how for example should I choose the correct key of harp/position?
And now it comes the problem of difficult notes like the 1OB or the 7OB which I can't hit.
Does anybody approach the diatonic this way or should I keep that for chromatic playing only?
(I'm learning to read music so I constanly need to be practicing it, and I don't play any other instrument other than diatonic or chrom, well I play bass but not read the bass clef yet)
Last Edited by DannyRanch on Mar 04, 2016 4:49 PM
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Chris L
108 posts
Mar 04, 2016
6:08 PM
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Yup! It's a mind boggler alright! I'm sure some here can read and play multiple keys, but it is a challenge for harp. Read the key signature, and then, choose a position, and see if it works...very challenging. I'm not very far along in harmonica but I tend to print off the sheet music, and using a note layout for all harp keys, tab beneath the notes. I figure out the most manageable position that uses those notes, and read the notes for time values only. Best I can come up with at my current skill level.
Last Edited by Chris L on Mar 04, 2016 6:09 PM
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nacoran
8979 posts
Mar 04, 2016
6:18 PM
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There are some guys out there who will play in lots of keys on one diatonic, but most of us grab the 'right' harp. Of course, depending on the song that may be a different position.
For instance, I was messing around learning random songs on YouTube yesterday, and the ones I grabbed were Adelle's 'Hello' and Europe's 'Final Countdown'. (Working on expanding my repertoire into new places.) I ended up playing along in 3rd. (They are in Fm and F#m respectively).
If someone wanted to perform them in a different key I'd play them on a different harp, still in 3rd. I think for the diatonic it's easier to think of the notes as Do Re Mi or scale degrees rather than the as specific notes- which can cause some significant cognitive dissonance when you are also playing chromatic!
I don't play a lot of chromatic, but I think if I was working on it (my only site reading comes from playing the baritone and singing in school) I would attack it by memorizing the major scales and memorizing which hole corresponds to each hole on the diatonic.
So, for the simplest scale to memorize, C, think of the scale going C=1 D=2 E=3 etc., and then think of each hole as the number instead of the letter. If you can interchange the scale degree number and letter for each scale in your head then the holes are easy. For C, that means thinking of the top row, for instance as:
1 3 5 1 3 5 1 3 5 1
That way you can get your diatonic learning on as well as your sight reading.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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dchurch
31 posts
Mar 04, 2016
8:14 PM
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Disclaimer: I have read music for decades_ but I do not use any form of notation for harmonica. I purposely took a strictly by ear approach on the harp_ but as you put it that’s a different subject.
That said, reading music is a great skill. I feel qualified to at least suggest a way to “practice” reading music with the diatonic.
I suggest you spend some of your time writing notation for a specific key diatonic. I’d start with your favorite harp and work out a piece you’ve wanted to play, or write your own music from scratch. You can stretch the limits of your harp and skills as you wish. Then move to the next harp and do the same…
I think you will not only gain in skills and understanding, writing music is also very gratifying. Search for “staff paper” or “blank notation”… I always packed around a pad to scribble on with a decent fine point mechanical pencil, with a good eraser on it :)
And don't forget there is much more to notation than the notes, rests and counting.
*Naturally a chromatic harmonica is better suited for playing a wider range of standard notation (it's a chromatic format). But even then you are limited by octaves.
If you know the range and playable notes in your diatonic you can look at a piece of sheet music to determine which diatonic(s) is best suited for it.
FYI, I’m and old trumpet player (one instrument with just 3 valves does it all).
Best of luck with your pursuit,
Dave
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It's about time I got around to this.
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hvyj
2993 posts
Mar 04, 2016
9:19 PM
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When I have to work from a chart playing diatonic, I check the key signature first and then check to see if there are any modulations. Then I convert each written note to the applicable numerical degree of the scale of the key and write the corresponding number above each note. I do this because I know which hole and which bend (I don't OB) corresponds to which degree of each scale in each of the six positions I can play on diatonic.
Then I look at the numbers and key signatures(s) and decide which harp(s) to use. Because the layout/location for each degree of each scale in each position is the same on every key of Richter tuned diatonic harp you don't need to remember each letter name of each note if you think in terms of numerical degrees of each scale.
I'm sure this is not what they teach at Julliard or Berklee, but it works for me.
I can't sight read and play from a chart, but if I can get the chart ahead of time I can figure it out. Some of the musicians I work with read music better and faster than many people can read a newspaper. I watched one bandleader transcribe a tune he was listening to on the radio directly on to staff paper. Wow.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 04, 2016 9:25 PM
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STME58
1611 posts
Mar 04, 2016
9:33 PM
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For starters, use the key signature on the sheet music and the circle of fifths to choose a harp. For Example, if you see 4 sharps and there are no accidentals in the music, you can certainly play it on an E harp. Whether it is E major, C# minor or any other relative mode for 4 sharps.
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Thievin' Heathen
710 posts
Mar 05, 2016
6:31 AM
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I have a friend who is an accomplished multi-instrumentalist. Sax, Clarinet, Flute, Keys, Trumpet, Guitar....,
There is no doubt in my mind he knows where every available note is on any harp. I don't know if it's by scale degree, by key and layout, or by ear, but I think it's all happening simultaneously. Admirable, remarkable, enviable. It's definitely something to aspire to.
The first step has to be the keyboard. You have to imprint the visual layout on your mind.
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DanP
288 posts
Mar 05, 2016
6:33 AM
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All the music reading for diatonic harmonica that I've seen is written in the key of C to make things easier with the sharp or flat symbol next to the note for bent notes. For the chromatic, the notation is the same as for any instrument that can play in any key such as guitar, piano, saxophone, etc. with the number of sharp symbols in the upper left to indicate the key.
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Raven
80 posts
Mar 05, 2016
6:33 AM
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I take the "Star Wars" approach to playing: "Let yourself go, Luke. Let the force be with you."
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DanP
289 posts
Mar 05, 2016
7:07 AM
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Right on, Raven. In my personal opinion, if there is a instrument that's not suited for standard notation, it's the blues harp which is about feeling rather reading notes from a staff. Don't get me wrong, learning to read music is fine and will no doubt be of help to you along the line. But one can get along fine without it. Some of the best blues harp players I know can't read music.
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dchurch
32 posts
Mar 05, 2016
8:56 AM
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Danny,
There is a good mix of suggestions here. I would also add if your goal is more a pursuit of knowledge and overall musicianship then a keyboard would be nice addition. They are very reasonably priced (less than 1 harp) and a great instrument/tool for theory/notation... You can also use those little movable sticky notes to identify notes, harp keys...
But I totally agree with Dan and Rav... The dio-harp is waaaay better played by ear. So, I would not consider "performing" via notation to be a practical goal.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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barbequebob
3180 posts
Mar 05, 2016
9:34 AM
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When it comes to harmonica, sight reading skills helps, but where it tends to help the most is in situations where you're gonna be playing classical, jazz or if you're gonna be a full time recording studio pro musician and you learn to adjust.
There are other instruments beside harmonica that's often not written properly for in sheet music. Most sheet music is written for key of C instruments, regardless if the instrument is diatonic or chromatic, and some 100 or so years ago, for horns, these had to be transposed and thus be written often in Bb, as an example.
For some jazz horn stuff, there wasn't anything that could show classic jazz horn stuff like things called smears, but then came along an accepted standard. Nearly every top classical chromatic player sight reads and everything is written like most other instruments as a key of C instrument.
The closest thing to sheet music for harmonicas is tabs, but too often they'er loaded with tons of mistakes, even like tabs for guitar players.
Classical chromatic virtuoso Cham-Ber Huang had some book and LP instructional sets that taught sight reading and he said straight up that you must learn to read the sheet music but use your ears as a guide.
Back in the late 70's, I nearly headed to NYC to go to Turtle Bay Music School to study chromatic, and it was headed by Cham-Ber Huang and one of the teachers was Robert Bonfiglio, each of them classical chromatic virtuosos, and there are times I wish I pulled the trigger on it because I'd be learning some intense sight reading skills and tho I can read some sheet music, going to that school would've clearly upped my game a hundred fold, and it would make me more easily employable as a full time studio session pro and record anything from movie scores to TV jingles, which often can be big time money makers, especially in big time recording cities from LA, SF, NYC.
In conclusion, sight reading can be done on ANY harp, but you gotta be doggedly determined to do it and don't allow it to hamper you in any way.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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DanP
290 posts
Mar 05, 2016
9:45 AM
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The great folk singer Woody Guthrie was once asked if he could read music and he replied "Yeah but not enough to hurt my playing."
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STME58
1613 posts
Mar 05, 2016
10:12 AM
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I am just an amateur musician and I have never been in a setting where a harmonica part was handed out along with the parts for other musicians. I have wondered if the harmonica part would be written in concert pitch, or if it would be written in the key of the harmonica intended to be used in the piece.
My son is playing sax in High school, he has been playing alto which is an Eb instrument, but he just got access to a tenor which is in Bb. The music he will receive to play compensates for the key of the instrument so as long as he has the right sheet of music he fingers the note he sees the the same way on either instrument. The note on the first ledger line below the staff, C, will be fingered the same on both instruments but will sound as an Eb on the alto and as a Bb on the tenor. The writer of the music does the work of figuring out what note to write for each instrument to get the note he wants. If you ask the trumpet or sax section of a intermediate band for a C, they will probably ask if you mean concert pitch or instrument pitch.
I am starting to get a handle on this as I have volunteered to lead a band of boy scouts. Writing and keeping track of music for a group like this is quite a challenge. I just got a french horn player so now I need to add in F parts.
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nacoran
8980 posts
Mar 05, 2016
12:46 PM
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I think, if I was going to seriously tackle sight reading for diatonic I'd get one of those software programs that transposes sheet music. Yes, you could learn each transposition- 12 keys- but in the world we live in today with software I'd just do it digitally. Learn to read for one key and then let the harmonica you grab transpose the song for you.
There is a historical precedence. There are various movable Do systems/solfege systems that have been used for quick transposition in the past. If say, you learn to read for the C diatonic, just get anyone handing you sheet music to give it to you as if the song was in C. Write the actual key on the sheet so you know which harp to actually grab, and just play.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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hvyj
2998 posts
Mar 05, 2016
2:00 PM
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If you are going to pretend to be a musician you MUST know what notes you have on your instrument and where to find them. And if you don't, never let any real musician know that or they will have no respect for you.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 05, 2016 2:01 PM
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dchurch
34 posts
Mar 05, 2016
5:09 PM
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Edit
I agree "many" musicians lack respect for others. I was never one of them. That might be justifiable in for example an orchestra setting but certainly not in something like a folk circle. Or for example a fiddle playing soloist. Maybe I have a different view of "real".
Some of the worlds greatest, gifted and most respected musicians have no need for naming notes or reading music. And as one schooled musician I actually have more respect/admiration for musicians that can play well by ear regardless if they can read music or explain music theory...
I've actually met more than one "real" musician with excellent reading skills and mastery of their instrument, but were darn near tone deaf. It's really weird to hear someone play pretty darn well that way but it's honestly a lot like painting by numbers. My computer can identify notes and play from notation but I have no respect for it.
That said, I fully support Danny's pursuit.
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It's about time I got around to this.
Last Edited by dchurch on Mar 05, 2016 5:32 PM
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RyanMortos
1546 posts
Mar 05, 2016
6:54 PM
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I read for both chromatic and diatonic. Sheet music written for flute or other 3 octave instruments work. Note layout on chromatic and diatonic memorized. Thankfully for diatonic if you have the layout memorized it's the same on every key if they're all richter tuning. Must admit, Michael has been helping me a lot with this.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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mlefree
612 posts
Mar 06, 2016
2:25 AM
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Brendan and I both use a handy and inexpensive software program called, "Melody Assistant."
Myriad's Melody Assistant
MA has many uses. You can write in standard notation or you can input music two ways, by importing Midi files or with an add-on called, "OMeR." OMeR renders scanned images of standard notation, skipping the tedious manual note entry step.
What's cool about MA is that it can generate tabulature for diatonic or chromatic harmonica once a tune is input via one of the above methods. You can define several types of tabs and you can even define alternate tunings. It can tab out normal bends as well as overbends.
The reason this is germane to this discussion is that MA is a nice "gateway" for learning to read standard notation for harmonicas. You can play along dynamically as the notation scrolls by or you can print out both SA and tabs.
$37 complete and OMeR is an additional $25.
A good investment to ease your learning curve if you are determined to read SA for diatonic harmonicas.
Michelle
(The usual disclaimer applies.)
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Mar 06, 2016 2:27 AM
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JInx
1185 posts
Mar 06, 2016
7:21 AM
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When I'm reading melodies, I convert the notes to intervals related to the tonic, mode or scale. I Look for arpeggios and other harmonic devices to guide. i can recognize the intervals in all the key signatures and can, transpose almost fluently simple melodies.
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Last Edited by JInx on Mar 06, 2016 7:32 AM
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dougharps
1179 posts
Mar 06, 2016
8:38 AM
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Particularly for reading diatonic I like the idea of using transposed charts, similar to playing a Bb clarinet off of sheet music written in C, but actually playing in Bb. You could apply knowing a few positions for any key signature to the transposed charts. I would prefer this to tab.
Regarding the approval of professional musicians, the ones I encounter and play with frequently don't care if I can NAME the notes on the specific harmonica I am playing. They are complimentary that I PLAY the right notes at the right time, and that I don't play unnecessary notes all over the place.
Theory and even reading can improve your skills, but the ultimate measure is the quality of your performance, however you achieve it. You play an instrument to make music, not to talk about it.
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Doug S.
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Gnarly
1691 posts
Mar 06, 2016
9:02 AM
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Anybody know if Howard Levy reads for diatonic harmonica?
Just curious.
I too use intervals to translate staff if I am going to try to read for diatonic.
Chromatic is much easier.
Mandolin is actually considerably easier than any of the above.
I can sight sing--kinda . . . OK, not very well . . . I took a semester in college when I was in my 20's and I'm 63 . . .
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timeistight
1949 posts
Mar 06, 2016
9:50 AM
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"Anybody know if Howard Levy reads for diatonic harmonica?
Just curious."
In one of his video lessons Levy talks about having to sight transpose charts in the studio. He suggested making notes on the chart as a guide.
Transposed notation is great if it's available, or if you have time to make your own. That isn't always the case, though.
I think it is possible to learn to transpose at sight, like Jinx does. Other instruments have to do this sometimes: alto sax players sometimes have to read from a concert-key or trumpet charts; pianists have to switch keys at the last minute to accompany vocalists.
I think the secret to sight transposition is thinking in intervals, as Nate and Jinx suggest. This is something I need to work on.
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STME58
1615 posts
Mar 06, 2016
10:20 AM
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"He suggested making notes on the chart as a guide." Notes on the chart is very common. I think every band director I have ever had has emphasised the need to bring a pencil (not a pen as things change and the music isn't yours) to rehearsal.
A lot of people here have mentioned seeing scale degrees rather than notes. I kind of do that. I read the music based on the major scale for the key signature. If I see two flats I think on the Bb major scale. If the piece is in major this is the same thing but the way I read is the same in Bb major, G minor or C Dorian. I find it easiest to read in first position, with the next easiest being 2nd and 12th.
There are transposing tricks. One I learned recently is that to play an alto sax (Scored in Eb) part on a trombone (scored in C) just add three flats to the key signature and pretend the treble clef is a bass clef.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 06, 2016 10:21 AM
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hvyj
3000 posts
Mar 06, 2016
10:21 AM
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@dougharps: I dunno what anyone else's experience is, but if I am at a rehearsal or in a studio and I am told to play a line in note names I am expected to know how to find those notes on my instrument or know that I don't have a particular note on the harp I am playing. If I couldn't do that I would lose credibility.
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timeistight
1950 posts
Mar 06, 2016
12:44 PM
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"I dunno what anyone else's experience is, but if I am at a rehearsal or in a studio and I am told to play a line in note names I am expected to know how to find those notes on my instrument or know that I don't have a particular note on the harp I am playing. If I couldn't do that I would lose credibility."
I think it's more common for someone to play a line and expect you to play it back.
Anyhow, while it's terrific if you've memorized the layout of all 12 harp keys, it isn't really necessary. If you know your major scales and the layout of one harp you can easily find any note on any harp.
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hvyj
3002 posts
Mar 06, 2016
1:00 PM
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It's done both ways. I think it's sorta fundamental for a musician to know what notes are where on the instrument he plays and I'd be embarrassed if I didn't. I haven't memorized the layout in note names for all 12 keys but I do know what hole is which degree of the scale in each of the commonly used positions and I convert. Before I was literate enough to spell my scales I'd make other musicians talk to me in degrees of the scale until a couple of bandleaders refused to do that, probably in order to give me incentive to get literate.
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DanP
291 posts
Mar 06, 2016
1:32 PM
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@ hvyj I don't understand what you're saying. Maybe I'm the Rodney Dangerfield of harmonica and those real musicians you know won't give me no respect. On all diatonic harmonicas the intervals are the same no matter the key and the degrees of bends on each hole are the same on all 12 keys. I'm not a professional musician so can you elaborate a little? Thanks
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hvyj
3003 posts
Mar 06, 2016
2:32 PM
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No, you've got it. For example to play C on a C harmonica you can find it at blow 1 blow 4 blow 7 and blow 10. To play C on a Db harmonica you find it at draw 3 draw 7 and blow 10 half step bend. And so on....
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dougharps
1180 posts
Mar 06, 2016
3:15 PM
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@hvyj
It is clear that we each play in very different musical environments with different musical objectives.
At studio gigs, at rehearsals, at live gigs, or sitting in with bands, whether as a sideman, an accompanist, or as the front man, no one has ever rattled off a series of note names for me to play. Other than learning an occasional hook by ear, I am expected to improvise and create a harp part for the song.
If you are playing music in a situation that requires you to play specific lines when given verbal note names, then you are correct to have developed that skill in order to continue to play with those musicians. It sounds as though the musicians we play with have very different expectations of us.
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Doug S.
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hvyj
3004 posts
Mar 06, 2016
3:31 PM
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Well I dunno...that's how most of the musicians I play with communicate.
I mean it's not an either/or thing--that's not the ONLY way they communicate. But I would appear incompetent to them if I couldn't find notes on my instrument by name.
I once asked the bandleader of a hot R&B band about the bass line to PAPA WAS A ROLLING STONE. He said the tune is in A minor and the bass line is G A C C G A, which on a D harp in second position is D2** D2 D3* D3* D2** D2. After I played it back to him, he said that I had the rhythmic inflection of the last two notes wrong and showed me the (irregular) pause between them which is essential to copping the proper rhythmic feel of that tune (and which I think might be too subtle to notate). But that's only one example. However, I'm not sure the guy would have gone to the trouble to explain the rhythmic nuance if I had been incapable of playing what he had just told me in note names.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 09, 2016 1:19 PM
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Chris L
110 posts
Mar 06, 2016
10:39 PM
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Wow! This is quite a thread. It seems everybody approaches this differently. Knowing every note on every key of harp would be a massive exercise in rote memorization, but knowing 1, at least C, is an important start.
Understanding music theory and how it relates to all keys of harmonica, scales, modes, time, rhythm and genre are ALL part of communicating with other musicians. I absolutely recommend learning musical theory, including musical symbols and notation.
Reading Music, on the other hand, is the ability to transfer written notes, time and other symbols into played music. It can be done on diatonic harmonica, but at the risk of being considered a blasphemer, you might reduce by more than half the time it will take to learn reading by following DChurch's advice above and investing in an inexpensive keyboard and using that to learn to read. Vocal music lessons would be another alternative! Bottom line is either of those gives you a single completely chromatic instrument to relate to. Stringed instruments would also work but are less obviously laid out.
Children learn to speak by ear, and a few years later learn to represent speech with alphabetical and grammatical symbols, and interpret other's representations, sometimes reading out loud. How long does it take a child to read out loud fluently and expressively? How much longer would it take if books were written in 12 different "keys" in which the sound symbolized by each letter of the alphabet changed according to the "key" of the book. You'd have to hand out enigma machines in kindergarten! Oh! right! Michelle provided a link for enigma software in this thread!
A few positives; things I appreciate about reading music.
The good thing is the time symbols do not change and you can quickly begin to recognize groups of triplets, eighth, 16th notes and the timing of phrases!
This will really help you check your playing by ear. Have you accurately picked up the timing and correct intervals? I like that the key and time signature are plainly laid out.
And really, all the notes are in the right locations; it's just up to you to figure out which key harmonica puts them in the most manageable and musically pleasing configuration.
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Michael Rubin
1110 posts
Mar 07, 2016
6:35 AM
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Learning to read has given me my highest paying gigs ($100,000 for a year's work) and some of my most interesting gigs.
It has solidified so many of my ideas concerning timing.
It has upped my game tremendously when it comes to understanding the layout of chromatic, diatonic and bass harps. Knowing the names of the notes in each hole is one thing, seeing the patterns is a lifetime of learning and reading music shot my understanding through the roof.
Mostly when I read music on a non C diatonic harp, I make sure I understand the blow and draw notes on a harp. Except for hole 3, every bend or overblow is then one half step away from either a blow or draw note. For example, on a Bb harp, 2 blow is D and 2 draw is F. 2 draw double bend is one half step higher than D, Eb. 2 draw single bend is one half step lower than F, E.
I took a jazz improvisation course and used a G harp. In around 2 weeks I could read as well on the G as I could on a C. It just takes practice.
I also will employ changing a song into scale degrees and can be very quick with that method.
The method I would like to spend 10,000 hours on is the interval method. I haven't read this entire thread, so someone probably mentioned this but if the written notes start on a c and move up to a D, that could be read as start on any note and go up one whole step. My instincts tell me this would be an incredibly fast and easy method once the time has been put in.
I never teach reading music to students unless
1.They ask.
2. Information that can be learned through reading is not getting through to them any other way.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Mar 07, 2016 6:37 AM
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STME58
1618 posts
Mar 07, 2016
7:54 AM
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"I never teach reading music to students unless
1.They ask.
2. Information that can be learned through reading is not getting through to them any other way."
Having first learned music in the public school system and now watching my son do the same, I was very struck by this comment because it is so different from the way band instruments are taught in public school. Students work mostly out of a method book of which the most used part is the fingering chart that has the note name, and the note on the staff along with the fingering. When I was learning I was discouraged from playing "by ear" for fear I might not learn to read. Fortunately, I don't see that aspect in my son's training.
I wonder if the difference is a band instrument vs. harmonica one. Or something to do with the public school method vs other methods.
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Michael Rubin
1111 posts
Mar 07, 2016
8:39 AM
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STME58
People fear reading music. I have a tough enough time getting students to play a major scale.
Also, how many people have you met whose musical story is "I played trumpet in high school. Nothing since." It is my belief that reading alone kills the musical spirit. Don't get me wrong, reading is AWESOME! But it should be presented as the student's choice unless there is no other way to help them understand a concept.
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DannyRanch
72 posts
Mar 07, 2016
11:10 AM
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Wow, I wasn't expecting this topic to be so big lol
Great, I read every single post and there are incredible suggestions.
I been considering to get a keyboard since a while.
I take music reading from a teacher that also helps me with music theory stuff (he is a trombone player)
Also some sax players I play with help me with phrasing.
My concern is that I'm a hired member on a Ska/Reggae band.
Which for a gig they were unable to play with the brass section.
The band leader told me to play the horn parts, team up with the keyboard player to play the organ parts, do harp fills, some solos and or play the hook along with the bass(...)
I was given no parts, no sheets, no key signatures lol
It was a big challenge and I barely did it.
Another question, I play alot with horns so I'm becoming familiar with horn terminology but, what happens (just curious)
If there is a part for the Alto Sax (Eb) what happens if I play it on harp? what it is going to sound like? lol
It has to be transported to C mandatory? or is any trick to it?
Sorry I'm kinda ignorant to music lol
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STME58
1619 posts
Mar 07, 2016
11:28 AM
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Micheal, I think you are on to something. I have met many of those"I played in high school, but not since" folks. I am not sure it is just the reading. but the strict conformity that is somewhat necessary in the large group format that is for the most part what high school music is, kills creativity. A 4 member band can improvise a lot easier that a 60 piece band or orchestra.
I have the privilege to work with young musicians who are in middle and high school bands in a small scout band. They all read music and were absolutely terrified when I told them we were going to play without music. The same fear a non reader has when you put a piece of music in front of them, these kids had when I took the music away. When I showed them scale degrees and intervals and explained how a melody works, they were able to play simple tunes without music, which in turn leads to the ability to improvise. I am learning together with them, but I think my forays into playing by ear have been successful.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 07, 2016 11:28 AM
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barbequebob
3181 posts
Mar 07, 2016
12:13 PM
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HvyJ correctly point out something that harmonica players are NOTORIOUS for, and that's not knowing where all of the notes are on ALL of their instruments and that alone is half the battle.
As far as transposing from sheet music written specifically for Eb instruments to C, there's plenty of books that have been on the market for decades, plus there are a ton of music notation software packages available that can do that in a couple of minutes, plus there are software packages that can transcribe any musical passage being played to sheet music.
The thing that STME58 points out about those musicians who were used to having sheet music suddenly not having that and being horrified having to deal with it is kinda something that's one of the drawbacks of classical music oriented training for the last three and a half centuries, and the idea of improvisation is totally against how classical music has worked since the 1700's, but the better musicians who do learn the skills of sight reading understand that the availity to read sheet music should NEVER hamper that ability. The entire idea of sheet music was invented to record music long before there was audio equipment to record anything ever existed.
If you work in a large band situation (AKA big band, orchestras, etc.),having sheet music around has all the parts of the arrangements there for you is a necessity but it NEVER should mean that improvisation is thrown out the window. In many a big band jazz setting, that NEVER happens.
The ability to sight read is an excellent skill to have, but for many, it is intimidating, but too often the real reason is that people ALLOW themselves to get intimidated by it more than anything else. Like I've said on many occasions, learning music theory, which is a related but DIFFERENT skill set, is more important now than learning to sight read unless you intend to be playing classical, jazz, or intend to be a full time recording session pro where you're often gonna be doing jingles on commericals, film/TV sound tracks and movie scores and the studio session pro gigs, you often never get a chance to rehearse anything at all and gotta do it all on the fly and here's where sight reading skills are a necessary evil.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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STME58
1620 posts
Mar 07, 2016
9:20 PM
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"If there is a part for the Alto Sax (Eb) what happens if I play it on harp? what it is going to sound like? "
Like BBQ bob says, there are a lot of books available on the topic of transposition, and it is a confusing topic, but I will tackle this one briefly, and hopefully shed light.
If you were to learn from a flute part, which is in C and be able to read and get the notes right in any key, then someone handed you an alto sax part, all you would have to do is change harps. If you look at the Alto sax part as if it were a flute part and determine that a C harp would work, all you need to do is grab an Eb harp and pretend you are playing a C part on a C harp and what comes out will be what the composer intended. If you decided that to play the part as if it were in C a G harp would work best, grab a Bb and things will come out fine as you read the Eb part as a C part.
I buy "Real" books in multiple keys. If I am playing by myself it does not matter what key harp or book I have. I can just act as if whatever book I have is in C and whatever harp I have is a C ( or G or F or whatever I think is appropriate for the music on the sheet) and the tune will come out fine. It is only if I want to match the key of another musician (or my audience has perfect pitch) that I need to be concerned with transposition.
As an experiment you could try swapping the alto and tenor sax parts when they are not looking and see what happens!
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 07, 2016 9:21 PM
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Steamrollin Stan
858 posts
Mar 09, 2016
3:04 AM
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Tip, reading harp music is not going to help, you need the feel and groove to get it to sing, ...up down turn it around, I'm not a good player but reading harp music is a PITA.
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isaacullah
3157 posts
Mar 09, 2016
7:43 AM
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First, this is a really great, and very, very useful thread. And something we haven't covered in much depth here before.
Second, for what it's worth, I seem to have independently arrived at much the same approach as hvjy. I tend to think in scale degrees. I have many scales in muscle memory for several positions in several tuning systems. I also have a conscious awareness of the breath patterns and the note patterns for these scales. When I try to work out a piece of music (which honestly isn't that often these days), I figure out the key and the scale, choose the appropriate Harmonica and position, and then learn the tune by scale degree and rythmic pattern. The only thing I can really "sight" read off if sheet music without having to think is rhythm. This is because my "school band" period was spent in the drum line, so I have drum music notation burned into my brain. Probably that's also why I'm not still a drummer, lol!
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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dougharps
1184 posts
Mar 09, 2016
8:15 AM
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Scale degrees or Nashville Number System seems quite applicable to harp, more than traditional sheet music and the classical approach.
The intervals remain the same even as we play different keys of our little transposing instruments.
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Doug S.
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slaphappy
177 posts
Mar 09, 2016
8:53 AM
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good thread!
an easy place to start is Dave Barrett's site where all the music is offered in notation (with tab) transposed to key of C. If you can get comfortable reading his notation it's not such a big leap to start reading in other keys (not that I have accomplished this, but I think it gets you familiar with reading on the harp without as much initial struggle)
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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mr_so&so
1011 posts
Mar 09, 2016
2:32 PM
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My approach is to learn "just enough" music theory (including reading music) for my needs. Like hvyj and Isaac, I usually think in scale degrees, and have downloaded sheet music and converted the notes to scale degrees a few times. To me sheet music is most useful for the rhythm and phrasing, and also to determine the scale being used (which helps me to pick a playing position). I've never been in a situation where I was given sheet music and asked to play it, so naming all the notes in all keys is not (yet) something I need to know. I can play by ear, so give me an audio recording and I've got everything I need to learn a tune.
This much interest in such a thread, without a lot of disgruntled nay-saying, indicates that the level of music theory competence here has gone up quite a bit since this forum began. Knowledge is power, and you get to choose how to best use it for your needs.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Mar 09, 2016 2:37 PM
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WinslowYerxa
1094 posts
Mar 09, 2016
4:23 PM
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Thinking in scale degrees can help you learn to read music on different keys of harp. The staff can then be mapped to holes on a harmonica in a way that's portable - you can shift the note layout up or down on the staff. I learned to do this when presented with the harmonica book for Broadway musicals notated at pitch (i.e., not transposed to C)for multiple keys of diatonic harmonica, with no tab. Once I caught on, I could read pretty well on any key of harp.
If you're coming to the Harmonica Collective, I'd be happy to share this approach in person.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 09, 2016 4:32 PM
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hvyj
3022 posts
Mar 31, 2016
7:25 AM
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True story: this just happened yesterday, but it reminded me of the discussion on this thread, so I thought I should share it. A few weeks ago, I got contacted by a musician on FB to play a sideman gig. He was also looking for a female vocalist for the gig, so I hooked him up with Michelle, the black chick who I occasionally work with.
Anyway, Michelle and I show up for rehearsal yesterday and it's an all black R&B band. As it turns out, I'd played with drummer many years ago. Everyone else I was meeting for the first time. All of them were very experienced musicians. Some of these guys clearly had formal training others were self taught with no formal training whatsoever.
Getting to the point: working up the tunes and arrangements ALL of these guys spoke exclusively in letter names for notes and chords. A couple of times when I was asked to play certain lines in note names (which the keyboard player would also demonstrate), I had to explain that certain of those notes were not available to me on the harp I was playing. If I had been unable to comprehend and communicate in letter names of notes, I don't know what these guys would have thought, but it would not have been positive.
Last Edited by hvyj on Mar 31, 2016 7:28 AM
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HarpNinja
4225 posts
Apr 01, 2016
8:37 AM
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I've played with a slew of "real" musicians - guys who've gone to Berklee, etc. I can't site read very well, but can follow intervals really well.
So, IMHE, speaking to other musicians in terms of intervals works really well, and it doesn't require I know a lot of notes - just the name of the I chord.
You have to know your scales and such, but for the average harp player, it is simple enough.
This might be referred to as Nashville notation???
At any rate, I just has someone hire me to record on a country soul tune. He sent a chord chart and scratch track. I have a general sense of chords, and this one had G, C, and D - so I knew it was diatonic to 2nd position on a C harp.
I've been learning guitar, which helps understand relationships better. I only struggle if I have to concert from sheet music to harmonica tab to play lines I can't just pick up by ear.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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barbequebob
3203 posts
Apr 01, 2016
9:06 AM
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@HarpNinja -- I also play a bit of guitar and that also is a big help for understanding this stuff and learning to play a chordal instrument gives you a decided advantage.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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hvyj
3026 posts
Apr 01, 2016
9:18 AM
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Personally, I'd rather work from chord charts than sheet music.
But, ya know, in every respect I think a harp player gets more and better opportunities to play (both paid and unpaid) the more and better the player is able to adapt to whatever a given band (or group of musicians) is doing or expects. I find it amusing that there is so much instructional stuff on how to direct a band to do what the harp player wants them to do. I guess that's ok as far as it goes, but you get many more opportunities to play the better you are at being able to do what the band wants you to do or the better you are able to fit what you do to what the band is doing.
I think it's the same in the communication aspect of music. We all have our limitations, but the more ways you are able to interact with other musicians about the music the more likely you are to be able to take advantage of opportunities. But YMMV.
Last Edited by hvyj on Apr 01, 2016 12:49 PM
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JInx
1190 posts
Apr 01, 2016
2:18 PM
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"so I hooked him up with Michelle, the black chick who I occasionally work witth"
Too cool! A real live black chick, awesome
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