Well said - & great topic. - but gotta shave to get respect ;) Maybe most people consider the size of the harmonica goes with the size of the hands (and other things). You cased it. Pretty hard to say a lot more… except to add that the number of homemade squiggles for tab rather tells you that we are an odd brand. See my "Museum of Notations" for the 100 or so tab notations of the past and present that are on my web page. But at least most non-harp players don't know that.
Hi Adam I agree with many of you points but I do feel that fellow blues musicians generally respect harmonica players and so do the audience. Jason’s post Too Loud, Too Many Notes clear shows that the guys on stage have respect for him and so do the crowed
Yep, you nailed it. I’ve played trumpet for several decades and never felt a lack of respect or that my legitimacy was in question.
Agreed, the harmonica is small, and beyond that it is often a toy. Toys don’t get respect. You can usually find pink or blue harmonicas right next to a box of toy kazoos.
A large number of harmonicas are made as toys and an even larger number are played as toys. There are toy trumpets and toy pianos but unlike harmonicas most real trumpets and pianos are rarely treated like toys. I suspect that’s why the general public might consider the harmonica a toy instrument. That’s not a good reason for musicians to feel this way.
I think a large part of the lack of respect comes from the age old reason of ignorance. I’m guessing most folks were introduced to musical instruments and got there music education while in a public school system. Harmonicas are not recognized as legitimate instruments in the school music system. I believe that even in the 30’s-40’s the diatonic in schools would have been rare. That strikes a personal nerve because I wanted to play harmonica in 4th grade music class but had to settle for the trumpet :(
I’m not trying to blame it all on public schools. But for whatever reason the diatonic harmonica is commonly misunderstood.
When I discuss the instrument I usually say I play, or study “harmonicas” and then give a short description of the various keys, alternate tunings, and different types of harmonicas that I play. It’s not that I’m looking for respect but I’d like to think it might help develop some appreciation for the instrument.
---------- It's about time I got around to this.
Last Edited by dchurch on Dec 15, 2016 8:00 PM
Well said. The "What else do you play" comment is a point I'm glad to hear you make. I actually started a topic way back about that very thing (without much comment). An extension of your point regarding the ease to which someone can get something musical out of a Harp is the fact that it then leads to attempting something on stage because you happen to have the right key. That works briefly but then it gets ugly fast. Harp players have earned a bad rep for that. *I do get a ton of respect in the music circles I play in.
Last Edited by Littoral on Dec 15, 2016 8:03 PM
Not everybody asks, but if they do it ALWAYS plays out like that. Of course it helps that they haven't heard me. Still, I've never encountered anything but positive reactions to the idea of being a harmonica player.
Last Edited by Frank101 on Dec 15, 2016 9:31 PM
Yes, the "do you play anything else" question. I think I'd get it less if I just answered I'm a vocalist rather than a harp/vocalist.
There is some respect out there - this clip is worthwhile not only for Billy Watson's excellent & inventive playing, but check out what the late Candye Kane says about harmonica / harmonica players at around the 3.20 mark
I feel there is respect shown from other folks and musicians once you prove your ability's. The "anything else" question always ruffles my feathers. Sometimes I'll hand the harp to the perp and say, OK, you play it!
Don't forget the image set in the 20's, when harmonica bands were big box office and business - "little midget with the big harmonica", The Harmonica Rascals, etc., all featured silly slapstick/vaudeville along with amazing music.
This image is in the collective consciousness and works against harmonica as legit instrument. ---------- The Iceman
@ GamblersHand That's a great clip! The piano player seen between Candye and Billy is the great Sue Palmer, a phenomenal local boogie-woogie piano player who toured with Candye extensively and is on most of her albums. You may remember Sue from her elaborate beehive hairdos.
I would just like to point out that Musicians in general get little respect, unless they are famous. Better if you respect yourself, you're not likely to get it from the uncaring.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 16, 2016 11:22 AM
I once got the inverse of the "anything else" remark on telling someone I would be willing to help her kids read music or learn trombone if they were interested. She said she knew I played the harmonica but she didn't know I was a musician. To be fair, it is not only the harmonica in which a distinction can be made between a player of the instrument, and a musician. But the stereotype is strong with the harmonica for the reasons mentioned in this thread.
I got 'anything else' yesterday. Vocals. I get more respect for vocals than harp. Until they hear me. But I'm actually getting more respect for vocals after they hear me as well, which is hard to deal with. I've thought of myself as a harp player who sings but I can feel the weight shifting to singer who plays harp and that's a weird feeling. 35 years ago I was trying to be a singer and realised I wasn't much good at that so I took up harp, and was ordinary at that too. It didn't make me more marketable. It took a long time but now I'm better at both and it seems the singing is what audiences see as the main thing. I know what takes the most energy and it ain't singing. Gee whiz, if I could just be in the band on strength of my vocals, that would be something. But I'd still feel I wasn't a good enough singer to merit a place in the band. That is weird; I don't really value my skills as a vocalist but that is what people relate to. This is a real-time revelation I'm having here. If I brush up my singing I probably don't need to work at the harp so much.
To be clear, my remarks about musicians getting respect weren't intended to include vocalists--although I consider them musicians, the general public doesn't seem to, and honors them more than someone who plays an instrument--it's a personality thing, I think.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 16, 2016 11:53 PM
Someone on facebook requested a local harmonica teacher. 5 people mentioned me. I got on the post and made a contact and a thanks. AFTER all this someone quips, "Need a kazoo teacher?"
For the record, I have met some badass kazoo players and spent 8 years playing kazoo on one song in a band and you can get some pretty amazing music with it.
Just last night I met a guy who asked me what I do and I said teaching harp was my main gig and he expressed that it must be very tough to build a clientele. I regret to admit I puffed my chest out and told him how many students I had, but it is all the same no respect thing.
Once I went to my wife's high school reunion in small town Texas. Ever see a confused dog tilt their head sideways? Got lots of that reaction when I explained I was a harmonica player for my job.
In general, people respect me when they hear me play.
I asked the proprietor of the shop where my son was taking sax lessons if he had anyone who taught harmonica and he told me that "there are no harmonica teachers, you just learn it out of a book."
I concur with those who say that it you talent that will get you respect. Two comments I get after people here me play are, I did not know the harmonica could sound like that", and my favorite, "I didn't know you could play Bach on the harmonica". Of course that is sometimes followed up by one we have all heard, "my grandpa used to play the harmonica".
On the kazoo, I was at Balboa park a while back and there was a guy with a guitar, and a bass drum with a bugle attached to the top. When he leaned in to play the bugle I was astounded at the notes he was playing. He was getting far more than the typical 5 notes you can easily get out of a bugle. The tone was good and in tune but not typical bugle. When I got closer I saw that the old beat up bugle had a kazoo for a mouthpiece!
My personal experience from sitting in with bands who don't know me very well is that respect is often given me when they see my harp case with somewhere around 20 different keys, harp tools, spare parts/tubes etc. It shows you've been around enough to know what you need. It's different than showing up with 2 keys and asking 'em to play to your harps. But, if you don't compliment the music, the respect is gone. Too many harpers are more into themselves than the music, and that becomes obvious when we play too loud, or can't comp. We also are guilty of not knowing our music fundamentals oftentime.
In Australia, maybe other places too, the harmonica was once part of the school curriculum. this wAs the case when my mother attended school in the late 30s. The school had a harmonica band. I have seen photos from other parts of Australia of school bands from that era, equipped with harmonicas. On the one hand this would mean many older folk are familiar with the instrument, on the other hand they may not necessarily like or respect it. When I was at junior school, music classes were all about the recorder and I'm afraid it's given me a negative feeling toward that instrument.
Part of the reason for a lack of respect may be that the harmonica is not a versatile in a working band setting as some of us think. True, advanced techniques allow players to pretty much play anything from a technical stand point, but even with all that, the instrument is a speciality instrument, useful, preferred in many situations, not so desireable in many others. Quite unlike piano, sax, guitar , bass or drums or even trumpet in a mainstream jazz context, even an overblow master harmonica player seems suited for a guest solo, and that's about it. Same, I would say, with classical , and this is certainly the case with nearly all dominations of pop music. It has particular sound that is something like the spice that is nice , in small doses, on a particular food. Like garlic. A player may well insist on their skills and the versatility of the diatonic harmonica, but other musicians, in general , don't want a lot to do with it. Even with proof of range and expressiveness, the consensus seems to be tht the less harmonica the better. I doubt that will change. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Dec 17, 2016 5:25 PM
The "do you play anything else" question I have heard also in Sweden many times. Mostly at work when I talk to people that are probably not very interested in blues music or harmonica. That is understandable since they don't have any references.
Last week I went to a blues jam. I was registered for 3 songs with a vocalist/guitar player and some other people. When I talked to the vocalist/guitar player I said I'm gonna play harmonica with you. Then he said "are you going to play solos?" I thought what the hell is the matter with you. But I said in a nice way: Yes I'm gonna play 2 rounds like everybody else. He said Hmm then we are 3 people soloing. I said: Yes that's why we are here, and I smiled. I dont' think I showed what I thought about him. He was taking the lead and he let me play 1 round each song and he played 3-4 round spread out through the songs. So it's also about competition and manners and some other stuff. Yes indeed.
It all depends on the player, their reputation and pedigree. I had the respect of every jazz player when I went to Temple Universitie's Esther Boyer College of Music. This wasn't always the case with the classical side of the College but in the end I performed a recital of a Baroque four movement Sonata and jazz pieces from many styles.
Sometimes you just have to earn that respect. One jam I went to I could see in their eye "oh harmonica playing Jazz hahaha. I can tell you by the end of the night it was "man can come back next week that was so cool". Harmonica players think that they play for a few years and now deserve respect but I can tell you those other player have put in lot more hard work on sax and violin etc.. ----------
Harp has its place, one has to earn respect. But sometimes it can be taken out of place and one still can earn respect. If lack of respect is a concern, I guess we are fortunate to have a support group, a safe place, right here in MBH? :^}
Yes, the MBH forum is a fairly (!) safe space. Certainly we here know that the harmonica is a serious instrument, not a toy.
Hakan: Yes, the eternal battle between guitar players and harmonica players. I play both, but it should be clear by now whose side I'm on, when one is forced to take sides. To paraphrase Shakespeare, "First, kill the guitar players." I mean wankers.
I mentioned this thread to my wife, and read her my comments about vocalists. She opined that the reason singers get more respect is that everyone has a voice (for the most part), so they can related. I didn't like classical music until I became a musician.
That first post by Ted sums it up.In other genres of music away from Blues the Harp/harmonica is there for spice...and in a lot of cases even in some Blues/y bands it has the same function. You can (say) do 10 years of solid hard work learning how to fully exploit the full range of a diatonic harmonica and still get up on a stage and get used like a dash of chilli sauce on a hot dog. Mind you i think there are a lot of musicians in Classical Orchestras who fulfill the same role after the same amount of work and study. I have watched orchestras playing and you see someone playing a Frenchorn sit there for 20 minutes before he gets to add something.
indigo, I think what you said about brass and classical music is on the mark. A typical trombone part looks something like this. :-) Which may be why trombone is pretty far down in the respect pecking order in classical music. Unless you can play like this
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 17, 2016 10:46 PM
Couldn't care less about what other people think or whether other musicians give me respect or not. Having my ego massaged is not my motivation for playing music. For me it's about self expression, emotional release and love of music (blues in particular). Anything other than that is just icing on the cake. When playing along with others I always try to play in the service of the song. If other musicians like what I do then great. If they don't, well nobody's died. Couldn't care less whether I get to solo or not. I simply enjoy being part of the musical conversation.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 17, 2016 10:57 PM
Way back in the '90s I rededicated myself to improving my playing and have never stopped working on it. I have established a reasonable level of recognized musical competence in our local scene, despite the inevitable presence of a few sub-par harp players who may prejudice other musicians against harmonica.
In the local mix we have some of those who should hesitate before playing in public as well as average and above average players.
I really don't care at all that some people may not respect harmonica as an instrument.
I find the harmonica gets a lot of respect from musicians and non musicians if you play it right. ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
A common theme in the responses on this thread seems to be that respect must be earned. There may be some expectations set by choice of instrument, but those will be quickly dispelled or confirmed when the musician begins to play. If an unknow violinist and harpist walked out on stage together the violinist might have the perception advantage at first, however, carrying a violin will not be able to outweigh lack of talent, and the stereotypes of the harp will soon be forgotten if the player plays well.
I'm not a great player by any means, but I've advanced enough that one of my guilty pleasures is showing up to a strange jam, ignoring the "oh crap" looks I get from guitar players, then seeing the astonished looks when they realize I can play.
For the last year or so I've been playing with guys who do mostly light jazz, motown, funk, etc. They're way out of my league, but very accepting and appreciative of my playing (go figure). And the audience is very much into it, so it's been a lot of fun.
I'm very conscious of the legacy from bad harp players who invite themselves onstage, play all over everybody, never shut up, and have no regard for the changes or keys or really anything musical. The "oh crap" reaction is based on the assumption that I'm That Guy. I work hard to make it clear that I'm not. One of the best compliments I got was from a very surprised keyboard player who was impressed that I knew when not to play.
I think players of most instruments are assumed to be okay until proven otherwise. For harp it's the opposite. As others have said, respect must be earned. I feel like I have to earn it anew every time I play. ----------
I always thought it was because we wore hats that were 40 years out of date. (I'm talking about the fedoras covering our bald heads, not Adam's straw hat and fine coif. Straw hats are always in style. I've got one myself.
Hmm, of course, I might be making them uncool. Sorry guys. :)
Getting the respect of other musicians has never been a problem for me. But again, that may be because I play guitar as well, so I can show guitarists what I want if I'm in a situation where guidance is called for, and because I can talk music (chords (including jazz chords), scale degrees) as well as play it. In that respect I suppose one could say that I'm not "just" a harmonica player; I'm a musician who plays harmonica. I can't read music, however, which places me squarely in the company of most harp players. That's never caused me problems, mostly because I've rarely been in situations where that's called for, either on blues gigs or in the studio. I'm aware of my limitations and have no compunction recommending other players for gigs that aren't really in my wheelhouse.
Harmonica is unusual in being an instrument that, on the bandstand, allows the player to grab any available vocal mic and instantly be the loudest player in the band. In fact, it's the ONLY instrument where the player actually grabs the vocal mic and cups it tightly. This makes it uniquely available to people of limited talent with either way too much ego or just enough ego to get over their stage fright, enabling them to ruin a song by wailing, honking, and pissing on everybody else. I think that that fact, as much as anything, may account for the lack of respect that harmonica players sometimes get from other musicians. They associate "unknown harmonica player" with that sort of scenario.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Dec 18, 2016 1:20 PM
After reading some comments, I'm starting to think that many harpers' lack of comping ability is a bigger deal than I thought. I was asked to join a ZZTop tribute band a few years back, so they could do some justice to the harp parts. After learning the breaks for about 6wks., I decided I didn't want to just do solo breaks and stand around for another 32-64 bars. I realized that I loved comping behind blues. I loved the horn parts. I had played trumpet in a soul band and the comping came fairly easily. Compin' tastefully will gain some acceptance with the strangers. I also discovered that some respect leads to fun: if they trust you, you can have fun with it all. Then, there's always the thing of what kind of blues you cut your teeth on.. Muddy Waters' formula of having the harper right up in the mix doesn't work with everybody/everything.
It's because the last couple decades advanced beginner and intermediate harp players thought they were good enough to join a band with advanced players.
How many ears have bled listening to beginner harp players at jams?
I have seen a lot of good bands with bad harp players.
Too many hacks spoil the pot!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Dec 21, 2016 1:24 AM
LittleBubba, comping and ZZ Top -yeah, I seriously dig rhythm and have been working with some groups doing ZZ Top and comping some of it is a blast. LaGrange last night was stomping fun.
On another "note", some new Stones blues stuff went over the jukebox too and I did not respect the harp player.
You can be a player with pedestrian skills and be respected if you're humble, never play too much or beyond your skill level, don't expect a solo on every tune, learn to comp behind vocalists and keep your head down and your mouth shut.
This has worked for me for a long time. I'll never be a great player but I've played WITH great players in IN really good bands and I can hang.
Good advice and applies to any instrument, not just harmonica. I got a gig playing bass in a blues band where the rest of the players were WAY above my level. I was an ADEQUATE player at best, and the other guys were pros. But I learned the songs, showed up on time, helped setup and load out, got along with everyone, kept my mouth shut when the more experienced guys gave me advice (even when I didn't agree), didn't overplay, didn't play too loud, and generally just did my job and didn't cause any problems. So, as PropMan said, being humble, playing at your level and not stepping on others can get you a long way in this business.
Thank you Adam. I heard the "do you play something else hundreds of times and i use to tell them i sing and play ukulele too. One have asked me if i don't play a real instrument... Once i had a gig with a small bluesrock band. When we set up the rig and i pick up my harpcase i heard one in the crowd whining :"Oh no,, should he play on that shit" The same man sat there the whole gig. And after we finished he came and asked me if we had records for sale and if i could recomend some cd with my kind of harmonica playing. :D
Last Edited by arnenym on Dec 21, 2016 7:11 AM
What groyster said. Why is it tht only harmonica players do this, start jamming with an invitation? Everyone else seems sensible enough to ask if they can sit at some point. Many harmonica players seem to think it's their right to blare into any live microphone that , for the moment, doesn't have someone singing into it, and even that condition is sketchy/
---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Dec 26, 2016 2:37 PM
I remember last new years eve on the 31st i show up to a jazz gig on El Salvador the players were beasts! Some fella on the crowd took a harmonica and started playing horrible chord bends when the upright bass was soloing or when the music was really soft, it was hell of annoying.
Playing uninvited its probably the worst thing you can do specially if you don´t play at least decent
I watched Adam’s video and have been following this thread. I’ve been playing the harmonica since 1972 but performing and/or playing professionally has never been my #1 priority. I know that going to jam sessions or asking to sit in with a band is a big part of life for the guys who are Jonesing to play out. Had it not been for the education I have received on this forum in the past five years, I am confident that I would have been guilty of committing all the sins harmonica players are typically guilty of. Even though I have been playing for over 40 years, my real education about the harmonica began 7 or 8 years ago when I discovered Pandora’s Box, errr…………. I mean the online harmonica community. I have learned so much that has enabled me to become a better musician. However, because I started Blue Moon Harmonicas six years ago, making custom combs and building harmonicas has dominated my harmonica time vs. playing them. I immensely enjoy what I am doing with Blue Moon but there’s no question that if I had been woodshedding for the past six years instead of polishing combs and building harps I would be a better player. No regrets though. That said, I have managed to cultivate relationships with a few local musicians who let me sit in with them whenever I want. I don’t do it very often and only for a few songs, so I minimize the risk of wearing out my welcome. My goals are to have a good time, add something positive to the music and to get invited back by the band. Pretty simple.
But back to the Blue Moon thing. In addition to the, “I didn’t know the harmonica was a real instrument” or references to cowboy campfire music, try explaining to people that you own a business that makes harmonica combs. Or that you build custom harmonicas. I think the point is that we live in our own little world. Nobody loves harmonica music as much as harmonica players. We love it because we love the music but we also have respect for the skill that it takes when we listen to someone who is good at it. Unless you play, you just don’t have any idea.
Which may be why trombone is pretty far down in the respect pecking order in classical music. Unless you can play like this
Last Edited by 
