WoozleEffect
29 posts
Feb 28, 2017
3:26 PM
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A bit of a silly question, maybe, but what's the preference out there?
Screws up from the bottom, or nuts down on the bottom?
Seems like harps of the same make and modep will come assembled either way, perhaps at the whim of the tech who tuned it.
I only own one harp that can ONLY be installed with screws from the bottom, and that's because the nuts are built into the upper plate.
Trivial? Perhaps. But what do you prefer?
Cheers!
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Rob Laferrière
Russell, MB, Canada
www.woozleeffect.com
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SuperBee
4553 posts
Feb 28, 2017
3:58 PM
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For no reason except special 20 I always put the nuts on the lower plate and screws in from the top.
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indigo
327 posts
Feb 28, 2017
8:36 PM
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"Screws up from the bottom, or nuts down on the bottom...............^
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Philosofy
799 posts
Feb 28, 2017
8:50 PM
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Nuts on the bottom. But I've been searching for a good source of sex bolts (also called barrels bolts, or Chicago Bolts.) There's some in China, and they're cheap, but have a 3,000 piece minimum order. Anyone want to go in on them with me?
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nacoran
9388 posts
Feb 28, 2017
11:55 PM
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I prefer Chicago Bolts (also called sex bolts). Seydel uses them, and Hohner uses them on some models, including the Blues Harp. I think they just look better.
That said, the best looking fastener I've seen is an old rivet that Magnus harmonicas used. It had a hole down the middle, so you could see through, or run a string through for a lanyard. I've got another project I want to talk to my jeweler friend about, but I'm going to see if it would be crazy expensive to get some inside out screws made that would look similar.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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florida-trader
1094 posts
Mar 01, 2017
6:46 AM
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Ideally speaking, in my opinion, the screws should be installed with the head on the blow plate (top) and the threaded part of the screw going through the draw plate. I tap the draw plate and opt not to use a nut. I have a wide variety of screws so if I happen to strip out a tapped hole, I can tap and use a slightly bigger screw to get a tight fit. On the rare occasions that I do use a nut, whether I put the nut on the draw plate or the blow plate depends on where the screw is. If the hole in question is between the reed pads on the 2-3 reed slots, I might opt to put the nut on the top. The reason is because sometimes there isn’t enough clearance between the reed pads for the nut to sit on the reed plate without interfering with the reeds. Even if the nut fits between the reed pads sometimes when the screw is tightened the nut can rotate and push up against the reed pad. This can cause a problem. Anyone who has built a lot of harps has had the experience of a reed which will not play because when the screw is tightened the plate is moved just enough to cause the reed to rub against the inside of the slot. This is more likely to happen on reed slots that have been embossed and therefore the tolerance had been tightened. I can also happen if the comb is not flat and/or you tighten the screw too much. I am not being critical of those who use nuts but I would say that it is easier to overtighten a screw when you have nut on the other end. When you tap a reed plate and rely on the threads in the plate to hold the screw in place you are acutely aware of the danger of overtightening the screw. It is very easy to strip the threads on the soft brass plate with a steel screw. The consensus when building harps is to only tighten reed plates screws to the point where they resist twisting. In other words, don’t torque them down as tightly as you can. If you do, you risk deforming the reed plates. This, combined with a less than flat comb, can cause the misalignment of the reeds and leaks.
Also, the only harp that I am aware of that has screws that go from the bottom up is the Golden Melody which has four screws that go from the top down and three that go from the bottom up.
Philosophy - I would be interested in learning more about the barrel screws you have found. Send me the info.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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WoozleEffect
30 posts
Mar 01, 2017
8:21 AM
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So, my initial post was about cover plate assembly.
When it comes to reed-plates, it appears that nearly every brand taps the draw plate and puts the screws in through the blow plate and into the draw plate from the top. I didn't realize that the golden melody goes both ways. (It's been ages since I opened mine up, let alone played it!)
When it comes to cover plates, there is likely no tonal benefit to either option.
I agree that the Chicago bolts (sex bolts) look a lot cleaner.
When it comes to brands that use a bolt and a nut, I imagined for some reason that there would be some "folk wisdom" involved.
Something like... if the nuts are on the bottom, and it falls off, you might not lose the screw... but if it's on the top, the screw falls out and the nut slides off.
I'm getting a little OCD when I'm putting these things back together... and the nuts are going on top, for absolutely no reason whatsoever!
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Rob Laferrière
Russell, MB, Canada
www.woozleeffect.com
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arzajac
1809 posts
Mar 01, 2017
9:19 AM
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Pick what works for you - the details make no difference as long as it holds. Some great harps were built (and still are being built) using screws and nuts. It only adds a very slight step when you assemble the harp in comparison to tapping one of the plates.
If you strip the thread on a stock harp, you can always just add a nut to that one screw. Don't stress about it.
If you find that the harp only plays well when the screws are loose, you have a flatness problem - it's the plate (or comb), not the screw's fault. It's fixable.
On some harps with three screws holding the back of the plate, you can use extra long screws (12mm instead of 10mm) and do two down (ends) and one up (middle) to offer you a built-in cover plate brace.
Screw head type is irrelevant, too. I've seen folks obsessed with getting Pozidriv head screws because they think that's somehow important to making the harp play well. It's absolutely irrelevant.
The truth is, if a person asks another person for a screwdriver without specifying which type, in most places including - but not limited to - North America, South America, most of Europe, Asia and Australia New Zealand, the other person will reach for a Phillips. There is a small zone in Germany, about a 17-block radius more-or-less, where the other person will reach for Pozidriv by default. Other than that, nobody uses it. (okay, I made that up.)
So if you lose a screws, it's okay to replace it with something with a different head. The only thing you need to keep the same is the size. For reed plates, that's usually M1.6 or M2.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on Mar 01, 2017 9:20 AM
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nacoran
9389 posts
Mar 01, 2017
11:05 AM
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Philosophy, sorry I missed your post! Looks like you already said everything I needed to say.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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SuperBee
4554 posts
Mar 01, 2017
12:24 PM
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I know it's a little OT from the OP, but I've been seeing a few reed plates with stripped threads, and overwhelmingly it seems they are from Seydel factory. The last one I noticed clear gouging on the plate under the screw head. Basically over-tightened and some not really driven in straight. Seems to have been a factory accomplishment as the owner was nonplussed when I showed him.
I repair proportionately far fewer seydel than hohner, though this year it's around 50/50. But on reflection the majority of stripped threads I've seen are in seydel harps. Any other repairers observed this, or different observation?
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arzajac
1810 posts
Mar 01, 2017
12:58 PM
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Yes, Seydel (white brass) reed plates strip all the time. I was just speaking to another repair tech about this a little while ago. Again, the easy fix is to use an M1.6 nut.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on Mar 01, 2017 12:59 PM
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WoozleEffect
33 posts
Mar 01, 2017
2:08 PM
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Good to know. I am ammassing quite a quantity of Seydel reed plates.
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Rob Laferrière
Russell, MB, Canada
www.woozleeffect.com
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SuperBee
4555 posts
Mar 01, 2017
3:15 PM
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That is what I usually do, although last time I found my 1.6 nut would not thread onto the seydel screw, so replaced the screw also.
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1847
4009 posts
Mar 01, 2017
6:12 PM
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why would they strip more than any other plate?
if you are using a self tapping screw could that be the issue?
you could also just use a sex bolt thru the reed plate.
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SuperBee
4556 posts
Mar 01, 2017
6:55 PM
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I think they do use self tappers, but I also think the screws are often malformed. And in this most recent 1847 I saw, the screw in the stripped thread was very tight and a little askew. All the screws had been done up tight enough to score the plate under the head. I believe the owner had not taken the harp apart prior to sending it to me.
My obs is that Suzuki use the best quality hardware.
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WoozleEffect
36 posts
Mar 02, 2017
8:11 AM
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I noticed the same scoring on the blow plate of my brand new out-of-the-box 1847 Silver. One screw was definitely a bit crooked. Luckly, it did end up going back together without too much force.
Seems there is some Brass vs German Silver (Nickel Silver) debate in the resonator guitar community, as well as with some who make or collect knives. I'm having difficultly determining if one is distinctly harder, or less prone to stripping than the other.
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Rob Laferrière
Russell, MB, Canada
www.woozleeffect.com
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arzajac
1811 posts
Mar 02, 2017
8:50 AM
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I think they strip more than other plates because the white brass is a little more brittle than the other materials. I've use stock reed plates with non-Seydel (better quality) screws and they still strip easily - it's not the screws. Maybe the screwer, too...? :)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
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SuperBee
4559 posts
Mar 02, 2017
12:41 PM
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the screwer in the factory in some cases it seems.
I accept that's true about the material of the plate, but
I still don't like their screws
This one I was looking at had not been taken apart before.
I was unscrewing it and the screw got to a certain point and would not drive itself out of the hole without assistance. It stripped the thread as it came out of the hole.
This was the middle hole at the rear of the plate. It's neighbour was also obviously compromised when I inspected the thread. This is after removing screws from the plates for the first time, so no question about ham-fisted post-factory installation. I'm always very careful when installing screws but this plate offered no chance to get it right.
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