This week end I had my "ah-ha" moment with the 5th position. I had played with it in the past and thought it was a joke, too much for an intermediate level player. Now I think I see where to use it.
1) good for minor tunes 2) It starts lower on the harp (2 blow) than 3rd position and 4th position, so it doesn't sound so squeaky. 3) I can get an easy 2 octaves with an extra note at the bottom and 2 extra notes at the top. 4) The trick is to expect a pentatonic (5 note) minor scale, not a full 7 note scale.
First octave 2 -2 -3" -3 -4 5
second octave 5 6 -6 -7 -8 8
2 octaves 2 -2 -3" -3 -4 5 6 -6 -7 -8 8
full scale with 1 note (the dominant 7th) below the root and 2 notes ( minor 3rd and 4th) at top -1 (root->)2 -2 -3" -3 -4 5 6 -6 -7 -8 8 9 -10
If you are good with blow bends, you can "top off the scale with a 5th " by doing a 10 blow bend.
So there you go. A full 2 octaves, plus more., and the only bend you have to do is a 4th note of the scale on the first octave. And you can play the scales without it and it still can sound good. I hope this helps someone.
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2010 7:08 PM
Congrats! I had the same sort of awakening with 12th position this last year. 5th is still something I am not super comfortable with...like I can only play it in certain situations.
John Potts who is on Harp-l uses 5th to play Little Wing and play the vocal melody. Maybe that's a good place to start? ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Cool, thanks for laying the scales out. One of those positions I have accidentally found myself playing in along with a band before, and only after looking at a circle of 5ths chart afterwards to pinpoint it. I might do some exploration with it and make it a meeting topic for us. ---------- Todd L. Greene, V.P.
You can also play -3' for the flat fifth to get the blues scale in the lower register.
Oversimplified safe formula for playing minor key blues in Fifth Position: Avoid draw 5 and draw 9 and don't bend anything but draw 3.
There are other bends you can play, but if you follow this oversimplified safe formula it's actually pretty hard to hit a bad note. Great for natural minors because you have the flat third, flat sixth and flat seventh without having to bend.
Maybe this is TMI, but Fifth Position works because you are are using the same harp as you would use to play Second Position in the relative major of the key you are in. For example, to play C minor in Fifth Position you use an Ab harp. The relative major of C minor is Eb. The harp you would use to play Second Position in Eb is also an Ab harp. But one does not really need to know this in order to play in Fifth Position. I use Fifth for playing minors quite a bit.
The breath pattern for the minor pentatonic scale in Fifth Position is the SAME as the breath pattern for the major pentatonic scale in Second Position. Same notes, just start on a different hole. So, if you can play in Second, you should be able to play in Fifth without too much difficulty.
If you want to get a full 7 tone natural minor scale in the lower octave, you can: 2 -2' -2/3 -3''-3 4 -4 5 and the availability of the flat sixth at 1 4 7 and 10 can be helpful. But I agree that, in general, it's useful to think/play pentatonic.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 8:20 AM
This is a very good point. One would use an F harp to play A Minor in Fifth position and since Second Position on an F harp is C major,(the relative major of A minor) it is easy to modulate between A minor and C major on an F harp.
We need more posts like this - Thanx Jim (and others) Are there any songs with a distinctive melody that this lays out well for? ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 1:33 PM
I'm going to do the much more simple version starting on 5 blow. ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 2:09 PM
What a small world. My afternoon project was to make jam tracks to "Black Magic Woman", It's one of the tunes we do at the harmonica club. We do it in Dm, so I did a Dm track, but you gotta use a Bb harp (shades of early Adam Gussow lessons:). So I also did one in E minor so you can use your C harp.
That's cool - we've just started doing this in the band and I've been doing it totally on trumpet but I think I'm going to throw some harp in now. We've been doing it in B flat so that means F# harp, but hey, I've never got to use it before so that's a plus. ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Had a similar ah-ha moment myself same day and prior to finding these postings. What I discovered is that fifth position breath pattern for lower octave blues scales is the same for First and Fifth position. It was not until reading these posts that I realized that the same is also true for second position. So for all the second position players out there, the same pattern will also get you into first position and third position blues scales. Good luck when you venture beyond the lower octave. It all changes as you move up the harp. And good luck to anyone who chooses to take on the middle octave 'blues desert' of first position....after six months of dedicated effort I suggest this is not with the effort.
There are some great splits available in 5th. ..both blow and draw. Some of the draw splits offer partial chords that sound great with darker minor tunes.
"Poor Wayfaring Stranger" is a great song to play in 5th position. Here is Charlie McCoy playing this song:
I learned the song by listening to Wailin Wood's CD.. here he is playing it:
Use a C harp... Country-tune harps are great for 5th position, because you do not have to avoid the 5/9 draws...
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2011 8:15 AM
I've just had my own ah-ha moment with 5th position, so I searched and found this thread. Mine was with St James Infirmary in D. I normally play the tune itself 2nd Position on a G harp so it's good and low, but was looking for other options for comping. 3rd position on a C harp seems too shrill and demanding in terms of holding difficult bends for long notes. But 5th position on Bb is warm, dark and lovely.
It's that diminished 5th that is the killer note here. Also I think that the pretty much all the lower octave bends are useful as passing chromatic notes for a jazzy feel.
Thank you Jim, your chart is very helpful.
So, why is 5th position treated as a exotic vs 3rd?
It's not the most relevant "spice" that blues players utilize to express themselves with...
It's a pertinent position and depending on the harmony of the song can produce some great music.
Most players who "talk up" the glories of using 5th position aren't very convincing of it's coolness once you hear them actually try to play it in a musical context.
But, in the the right players hands - it can be greatly appreciated :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 31, 2013 4:34 AM
Frank - I'm not saying it's cool just from a theoretical view. My point is that for this song it immediately felt and sounded more natural providing accompaniment. Maybe it's just for dark, very minor-feel numbers.
Clearly there must be a reason why 3rd position is considered standard, hence my question.
I understand... and I agree the potential is there - for 5th to be exploited in some very satisfying ways by the player who truly desires to master its face value.
5th is "typed" about a lot, but rarely "played" at least on this site :)
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 31, 2013 4:43 AM
Frank - plus, I'm really just sharing my deep joy at finding something new (to me) and good on the harp. I know you pros have seen it all before, but just indulge me :-) Some of us are the start of the long journey.
I for one definitely plan to use it, even on just this one number, and I'll gauge the response.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 31, 2013 4:48 AM
I'm a small fish in a big pond, you must have me confused with somebody else...
I hear you and understand your enthusiasm...I hope you follow through with your delight of this discovery and learn to use it in powerful and meaningful ways - The Sky's The Limit :)
Here are a few excerpts From Steve Bakers "The Harp HandBook"...
Steve, proudly proclaims that 5th position is one of his ALL time favorites, and I imagine he has mastered its usage and could share valuable direction and advice.
If you can correspond with him, that would be a huge eye opener in where your studies (tunes etc.) of that position should be focused as a new student.
Frank - thank you. Now you mention I think I've heard Steve Baker talk about 5th on a YT video, but it was a non-blues piece if I remember.
1847 - thank you. I've downloaded it and will have go.
In the blues context, adding the 6OB=flattened 5th in the upper 8ve gives that diminished flavour across the range. I guess it could be overdone. I'm still feeling enthusiastic though.
Most very good " blues players" are obsessed with mastering 1st, 2nd, and 3rd pos...
The average blues player that I have heard- has barely figured out 2nd pos...
Most blues players get their power and might from having a serious command of those 3 fascinating positions...
5th just ain't a go to pos for most hardcore blues players - not cause it's exotic - it just ain't a necessary tool for most blues players to carry around.
That said - The GREAT Steve Baker uses it and loves it because he has a 'passion' for what it offers him.
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 31, 2013 3:28 PM
asked: "So, why is 5th position treated as a exotic vs 3rd? "
reason 4
4) The root notes in 5th position are blow notes. In 3rd position they are draw notes. People like to wail on a draw note, not blow note. It's easier to sound emotional in 3rd position. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
If I do a song like "Little Wing", I prefer 5th position. It may not make sense, but when the tune has more than 4 chords, I like to run up and down the harp from 1 to 10 and back. For me, that is easier in 5th. ---------- theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Oct 31, 2013 7:37 PM
Jim, Frank - yes that all makes sense. Clearly it's not a common blues tool in the recordings I've studied. I like the technical explanation, thanks.
Below is Charlie Musselwhite on the subject of positions. He says about the traditional Chicago players, 'just because they didn't record it doesn't mean they didn't know it...'
'Even if you can't play in all positions, it helps your mental image of the harp to know about them.'
Joe - I went and watched Brendan's video on this. I'm glad that he demonstrated that hitting a 3'' bend in tune on a D harp is a bit tricky. The masters make things seem effortless in performance, and it's encouraging for learners to know that it does require effort.
Rarko - Fantastic, thank you so much! In fact it was listening to Stand Back when I first started that convinced me to break away from just 2nd and work on 1st and 3rd positions from the off.
I used Dave Barrett's books for a technical kick start, but for me it's CM that is the reason for doing it.
If you or anyone has any other examples, please share. I spent yesterday (on leave, it's half-term here) noodling round the house on 5th, and my critics (my lads) concluded, 'that's bluesy'.
