Rick Davis
139 posts
Feb 01, 2010
9:32 AM
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This is reknowned Denver harp player AC Blue working hard with my Masco ME-18P amp. This picture was taken last night at the blues jam my band hosts at Ziggies Saloon.
The Masco was singin', baby! All the players raved about the tone, including AC, Ronnie Shellist, and Nick Clark. After a couple years of tweaking it I think I finally got this old amp right. BTW, that inexpensive Epiphone cab seriously rocks for harp. Fat and thick, but with good definition and nice RIP!
AC Blue is a fascinating harp player. He is immensely talented, and he creates his own 10-hole harps that are retuned and can play any scale. Think about that: By using bends, AC needs only ONE harp all night to play any song.
That is something to think about for all the OBers. With AC's method, you can play all the notes and still retain the fullness and beauty of the old-school harp tone. Overblowers often strain to get a note that ultimately sounds thin and weak. AC easily bends to notes that sound fat and natural. His notes "fit" into the overall tone of blues harp. His playing is melodic and beautiful. His range is impressive.
AC Blue and Jasco (the guitar player in my band) will have a CD out soon. I encourage you guys to check it out.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 9:37 AM
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ZackPomerleau
605 posts
Feb 01, 2010
9:38 AM
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BLASPHEMY! Just kidding, I'd actually like to check out that harp.
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toddlgreene
690 posts
Feb 01, 2010
9:38 AM
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Cool post, Rick-and great pic. So great, in fact, that I can tell he's missing that little plastic insert on his RE-10! I'd be curious to know this tuning he uses.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 9:39 AM
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Luke Juke
88 posts
Feb 01, 2010
10:09 AM
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I would love to hear that masco Rick.
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oldwailer
1044 posts
Feb 01, 2010
10:15 AM
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Rick! Rick! Rick! You just gots to find out for us what that tuning is! I've been dicking with tunings for quite some time now, and I'm salivating!
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Rick Davis
141 posts
Feb 01, 2010
11:58 AM
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The layout is:
1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9---10
C---D#--F#--A---C---D#--F#--A---C---D#
D---F---G#--B---D---F---G#--B---D---F
Notice that all draw notes are a full note above the blow notes, with a half step between the draw note and the next blow note. This way you can get a chromatic scale with only a single regular bend.
You can buy diminished-tuned diatonic harps from Seydel.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 12:00 PM
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pharpo
124 posts
Feb 01, 2010
2:29 PM
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Rick --how many watts is the MASCO putting out. Have you heard any Bogens being used ?
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Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
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Greg Heumann
267 posts
Feb 01, 2010
11:11 PM
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You know - (and this isn't directed at you Rick AND this is off topic,) but I gotta vent. Every time I hear people suggest that "you only need one harp" I don't know whether to laugh or puke..
Sure, you can learn to play a harp chromatically. You can come up with special tunings. These are cool, and OB'ing is a useful skill. BUT (and it is a HUGE BUT!!!) IT ONLY APPLIES IF YOU'RE PLAYING SINGLE NOTES. If you can't play CHORDS when you want to, you ain't really playing the instrument. That is DOUBLY true for "old school harp tone." Listen to some Sonny Boy. Nobody plays single notes all the time, or shall I say - no great players do. All harmonicas, even special tuned ones, have a key. It is the available chords, not single notes, that defines it. Why do you think chromatic harmonicas are available in multiple keys?
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Pimpinella
58 posts
Feb 01, 2010
11:22 PM
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One more thing about diminished tuning: It has barely more than two oktaves available. It's an interesting option for Jazz players, probably expanded to a twelve or 14-holer, but for blues the lack of usable chords and the missing top octave won't make diminished tuning look favorable to me.
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oldwailer
1050 posts
Feb 01, 2010
11:28 PM
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Yeah, I think Greg is right--but I just gotta make one of these diminished babies just for the fun of it--thanks for the information--I actually already had the info--just didn't know it was named a "Diminished harp."
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Ev630
29 posts
Feb 01, 2010
11:50 PM
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I'm with Greg.
One harp? What next? One mic and one amp? I mean - GET SERIOUS!
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Pimpinella
60 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:46 AM
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oldwailer, you can buy them directly from Seydel. If you want a Hohner you can buy it from Harponline.
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Rick Davis
143 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:06 AM
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pharpo- The Masco puts out exactly 20 watts right before clipping. Of course, I frequently drive it much harder than that.
Greg, don't Puke! It is completely untrue that you cannot play nice blues chords on a diminished-tuned harp. You just need to tongue-block. You can do that, can't you?
Of course, the folks who peddle custom harps (not Greg, as far as I know) squawk the loudest about how EVIL diminished-tuned harps are.
OBers INSIST that they MUST play some chromatic notes, even if they sound thin and tinny. With a diminished harp they can play those notes and more, and they sound round and full. I don't know why they get so upset about this.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 8:19 AM
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Rick Davis
144 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:17 AM
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pharpo, I forgot to add:
At Ronnie Shellist's harp workshop the other day one student brought a Blues Box Amp. I've seen those on eBay for years. I'm pretty sure the builder uses old Bogen amps.
Anyway, the amp sounded surprisingly good! Very greasy, lots of raunch. Here is a picture:
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 8:41 AM
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Rick Davis
145 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:22 AM
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Greg, I agree you should listen to Sonny Boy as an example of good harp tone. He never played overblows, although I'll bet you a dollar he could if he wanted to.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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ZackPomerleau
626 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:51 AM
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I gotta be honest, Rick it sounds like you're picking a fight with this overblow thing. You're constantly going off about it. I understand you have your opinion, but I think you should give it a rest.
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Rick Davis
147 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:59 AM
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Zack, we all have opinions. Thanks for expressing yours.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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ZackPomerleau
627 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:02 AM
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We do, but you're making a big deal about it, trying to shun people away.
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ZackPomerleau
628 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:03 AM
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We do, but you're making a big deal about it, trying to shun people away.
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toddlgreene
705 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:12 AM
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There are much bigger and better things to do with our energy than argue overblows or whether or not one should play a diminished harp, really. I for one would like to hear this fella Rick knows, and I'd be up to try it, but if doesn't work for me, that's just what it is. I won't pass judgement on those it DOES work for. Same goes for OBs. But I digress.
Rick, that BluesBox-what's the story on those? I don't think I've ever heard of one.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 9:12 AM
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Rick Davis
148 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:35 AM
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Zack.... I'm "Shunning people Away???" That is nonsense. If you heard AC Blue play I think you'd be pretty excited about this.
Some OB fanatics seem to have a "smug" gene that requires them to insult those of us who chose not to use the technique. I'm certainly debating that point, but I'm trying to do it civilly.
Toddle: Blues Box Amps. I have not reviewed or tested these amps, so I cannot recommend them, but the amp sounded good when I played it on Sunday. I was impressed.
BTW, one student had a Hohner Blues Blaster mic I tried. It was wretched. Awful tone.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 9:37 AM
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ZackPomerleau
629 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:46 AM
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Rick, I haven't heard many people go off about overblows. You're doing the same insulting, but against people who do overblows.
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nacoran
964 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:50 AM
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A diminish tuned 12 or 14 (or more) holed harp would solve the range problem. I wonder if you could make a Frankenstein hybrid with a chrom. You'd play all your single notes as if it was a diminished harp, but then hit the slide and expose a couple more reed plates just for chords.
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Rick Davis
150 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:57 AM
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Nacoran, AC Blue half-valves his harps using teflon paper so he can get blow bends as well. It's pretty cool.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Rick Davis
151 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:02 AM
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Relax Zack... It's just an opinion. It won't hurt you. I'm not insulting anyone.
I know some people have been driven away from the site by arrogant and insulting posts, but they weren't from me. Ask Walter Tore about that.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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HTrain
5 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:12 AM
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@toddi - I've got one and it is a rebuilt 60's 14 watt Bogen with a 12" Weber. It rocks and Randy is a great guy to deal with. Prices are very decent.
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Rick Davis
152 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:15 AM
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Htrain, the guy who had the amp at the workshop said the price was very nice. I won't quote it here because I don't know how long ago he bought it or if Blues Box has raised there prices, but it was way below the price of a Blues Jr. amp.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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ZackPomerleau
630 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:21 AM
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Rick they won't hurt me, but it seems sort of hypocritical.
Those Blues Box amps are cheap, and they use Bogen's. He can pretty much make anything from what I have heard.
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Rick Davis
153 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:25 AM
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Zack, have I insulted you somehow? You seem particularly agitated about this. If I have, I apologize, sincerely man...
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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toddlgreene
707 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:25 AM
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I've played thru a couple of Bogens, and there is awesome potential in them.
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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kudzurunner
1054 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:27 AM
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"I know some people have been driven away from the site by arrogant and insulting posts, but they weren't from me."
I think you're right, Rick. We obviously all read your post that began with the cry, "Overblows suck." Some might call that sort of unilateral dismissal a kind of arrogance. But I don't think anybody has quit the forum as a result of it. :)
It takes more than gnat-like derision to get under the skin of the overblowing ubermenchen.
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kudzurunner
1055 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:29 AM
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And, to be fair, you pleaded for respectful dialogue and were actually willing to listen to opposing arguments. The result was one of the most vital threads that has ever appeared on this forum. Thanks for starting it.
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Oxharp
136 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:36 AM
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Say Rick,
That gear looks pretty cool.
do you have any sound clips so I can hear it?
What is in the cab in terms of speakers?
If no sound clips are available how about doing a harpsucker type thing and let us all enjoy what I am sure is a great sounding set up.
What do you do to the masco then I did not think you could do that much in terms of mods.I am curious as it seems a good small amp option and they seem really good value if you get a good one.
cheers
Russ
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Rick Davis
154 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:37 AM
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Adam, that was supposed to be funny... like an oxymoron: "Overblows Suck!" I thought everybody would get it. It was a tone-deaf attempt at humor (oooh, bad pun). I've been tempted to go back and take that out of the post, but I'll leave it in. So many of the responses are targeted toward it, it would make them meaningless if it weren't there.
I don't mean to insult anybody, but I do believe that many OBers (I've noted the exceptions) force the technique into their playing for its own sake. The tone of the OB notes is sometimes glaringly out of place.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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praefect
7 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:45 AM
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"overblowing ubermenchen"
I now feel like a handicaped homosexual jewish gypsy.
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toddlgreene
709 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:49 AM
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Leave it to Adam to send us reeling to Google some new term. 'Ubermenchen' returns some funny results.
I can see Adam, Jason, et al. overblowing to the tune of 'I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok'...
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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Rick Davis
155 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:52 AM
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Oxharp, I don't have any clips of the amp yet. Although I've had it for two years, it just arrived to its present configuration a few days ago. The technical work on the amp was done by Bruce Collins at Mission Amps in Denver. He is a Tone God. Check my Blues Harp Amps Blog (link below) for more details and for how to contact Bruce.
Bruce replaced all the capacitors, using some paper in oil caps, to give the amp a better voicing for harp. Modified the current to the power tubes. Changed the tone stack. Other stuff I don't understand. His work improved the amp dramtically.
The cab is an inexpensive Epiphone Valve Jr cab with the standard 12-inch Eminence Lady Luck speaker. They sell new for only $129.00. I bought mine used at Guitar Center for $90. It sounds good. I could probably improve it with some exotic speaker swap, but so far I have resisted the urge to tinker. The rig sounds right.
I'm heading to a blues jam hosted by friends tonight (The TeraBlu band in Denver, with killer good harp player Mojo Red). I'll take the Masco and Epi and try to record a clip so you can get a feel for the tone.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 11:21 AM
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ZackPomerleau
631 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:55 AM
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Rick, no hard feelings, I actually agree with you more than you think. If you listen to my playing I don't overblow a whole lot unless I truly feel it fits the song. I'd never play Juke or something and overblow, but that's just me. I have some purist-ness in me when it comes to certain songs and styles.
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ZackPomerleau
632 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:56 AM
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Oh, and Rick, did you get a sound sample of this guy? I might order something like that harp someday. It could be better for those times when I don't want to do a bazillion overblows.
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Rick Davis
156 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:05 AM
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Zack, I emailed AC this morning and he promised me a sound clip later today. I also alerted him to this forum thread, so I wouldn't be surprised if he popped in. You'll like him; AC is about the nicest harp player I've ever met ;-) and he LOVES to talk diminished harp.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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ZackPomerleau
635 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:09 AM
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I wonder how his is tuned? Like, what is the key of the harmonica? Would it be the first blow note? It'd be interesting to see how that works. I've a pedal board to purchase, but maybe when some gigs come I can try one of these, I'm always into this stuff, I don't want to limit myself, maybe I'll learn to do something cool :-D If AC comes around I'll definitely try to chat with him.
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nacoran
973 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:23 AM
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Richter tuning is real useful for being able to play in key without knowing what keys are. Diminished seems to limit the octave range.
Is there an Augmented tuning where you can do deeper bends? That might be a cool layout, maybe with a discrete comb. How many half-steps apart can you have the blow and draw notes before you can't control the bends? Could you bend a whole octave?
Even just being able to bend each hole a whole tone would give you 3 draw notes and a blow note for each hole. If the next hole started on the next note you could have 40 notes on a ten-hole harp. That's over 3 chromatic octaves. If you could bend a step and a half you could get over 4 chromatic octaves with ten holes. You could add a low octave to every harp.
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Pimpinella
61 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:37 AM
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Rick wrote: "Some OB fanatics seem to have a "smug" gene that requires them to insult those of us who chose not to use the technique. "
OK, you might have run into that kind of folks. I guess you've realized by now, that definately not all overblowers are like that. If you didn't realize though it's about time for it. There is also a share of players who insult overblowers for tainting the "real thing". I don't care.
I _tried_ diminished. It sucked. If i was starting to play now and was going for Jazz diminished would probably an option. If i was playing Chrom i'd surely prefer diminished over the mindless solo tuning. I really like Alfred Hirsch's playing, and he's playing on diminished tuned diatonics for years. But again, i tried it, and it sucked.
But by now i don't think that you came up with diminished just by cnance. There's already a very long thread started by you covering the whole overblow thing in depth, and i agree with Adam that it was a great thread. Still you start out with this new one just to show us stupid overblow worshippers that we were wrong all the time. Would have been easy to place it in the already existing thread, but that wouldn't have been exposed enough for you, eh? Too many members already stopped reading there?
Can't you just accept, that some of us are fine with overblows and don't think they suck at all? Get down from your ego trip and see, that you're very close to those "overblows taint our blues" whiners.
One of my woodshed songs is Misty by Errol Garner and my favorite position for it is 12th. This requires a lot of overblowing on 6, which sounds fine for me. What realls sucks and sticks out is the half step bend on 3. Bending is not at all better than overblowing in quite many cases, so why should i switch to a harmonica that forces me to bend all the time? I'm HAPPY with overblows. They give me all i need. Just stop suggesting that they should be a problem for me, it's been boring for quite a while now, but yet it starts to unnerve me.
kudzurunner wrote: "And, to be fair, you pleaded for respectful dialogue and were actually willing to listen to opposing arguments."
By now i wonder if he just claimed to listen.
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Rick Davis
157 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:52 AM
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Pimp, I wrote that *SOME* OBers are the spawn of the Devil, not all.
I started this thread because it deserved its own space. There is no other sinister reason.
You tried diminished harp and couldn't get what you wanted out of it. Fair enough. The same can be said about those of us who chose not to force overblows into our repertoire no matter how cool or hip they may be.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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nacoran
976 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:07 PM
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Pimp- I think a separate thread about diminished is very appropriate. We all are looking for a way to play chromatically, whether it's overblows, chromatics, or just having different keys of harmonicas lying around.
There have been a couple people agitating on both sides, but that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of interesting things being said.
"But by now i don't think that you came up with diminished just by chance." Please try to assume the best in other and don't accuse people of having ulterior motives.
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ZackPomerleau
639 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:27 PM
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Spawn of the devil, I like that. hahaha.
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toddlgreene
710 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:35 PM
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"Spawn of the devil"-HEY! Leave my kids out of this...
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Todd L. Greene, V.P.
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Pimpinella
62 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:58 PM
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nacoran, yes, a thread about diminished harp is very appropriate. This Thread is about Masco amp, OBs and diminished though. The opening post contains:
"That is something to think about for all the OBers. With AC's method, you can play all the notes and still retain the fullness and beauty of the old-school harp tone.
I don't think it's wayward to turn it around into "come on guys, you know you're wrong, stop sucking". Re-read. It's something for us overblowers to think about. Them non overblowers won't need diminished because they already get it right, no?
But hey, i honestly apologize if i see arrogance and self-righteousness where there is no. It's just that if it smells like fish and looks like fish i tend to believe it actually is fish. If it's not i'm dearly sorry.
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congaron
505 posts
Feb 02, 2010
3:07 PM
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"Overblows Suck!" I thought everybody would get it.
My reply is still.."i think overblows blow and underdraws suck."
Sorry, I just can't get even remotely serious about arguing this point one way or the other.
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nacoran
983 posts
Feb 02, 2010
4:21 PM
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Pimp- I try to read each thread separate from the others, especially when things get heated. Even if Rick did single out overblowers out I don't think he did it out of malice. If someone is looking to blow up a thread they can probably blow up a thread a lot better than that, especially with everyone all riled up the way they have been the last couple days.
It's alright to see arrogance and self-righteousness wherever you want, and in person people would probably settle things quickly; people miss a lot of cues that would be there about whether someone is kidding around or not, but in a thread people chose up sides and pretty soon people aren't coming around anymore.
Rick's quote is only raising questions about harp technique, not personal motivations.
I guess I get a little sensitive on the point. I've seen a couple great forums shut down because people just got out of hand. I'd much rather be deleting spam than refereeing arguments.
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