DJKim
10 posts
May 25, 2010
5:08 AM
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I'm curious about written music for harmonica, and I'm not talking about tablature.
Why is it that nearly every time I see any sheet music for harmonica, it's not written as it's normally played. For instance, if the song has a flat-tire groove, it's eighth note to eighth note, instead of dotted-eighth note to sixteenth note. Sure "Groove: Flat-Tire" would be written above along with the song title, harmonica key, etc. That's all good and all, but I only bring this up because it frustrates me as a student who started with classical violin when I was 5 and saxophone. I'm used to playing it as written across the measures.
Am I alone here?
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arzajac
204 posts
May 25, 2010
5:24 AM
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I'm taking Voice and Piano lessons from a Jazz musician.
In his notes, he writes down chord changes and not much else. I can't sight read very well, but I can improvise around chord changes.
If I spent the time learning to sight read, I probably wouldn't be having as much fun. But that's my choice - I could have picked a different teacher.
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GermanHarpist
1481 posts
May 25, 2010
5:24 AM
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" I'm used to playing it as written across the measures. " - Yep, not with harmonica.
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YT - Music isn't created, it evolves.
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
432 posts
May 25, 2010
6:22 AM
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Dj, sounds like you need to start doing your own arranging. Are you playing chromatic? I would hope so.
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KingoBad
280 posts
May 25, 2010
6:54 AM
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You'll take the soul right out of it.
I toyed with the idea of learning the actual notes so I could play other music (guitar, piano, etc). But the thought of keeping that straight for all 12 keys seems a daunting task, and I wouldn't want to limit my self to one harmonica either.
I suppose eventually I will know them all (as you at least learn the chord notes that go along with I IV V progressions, etc.) But, by then, I will probably have enough experience and songs memorized that I would not need to read the music anyway.
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DJKim
11 posts
May 25, 2010
7:06 AM
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@ElkRiver - Diatonic actually. In terms of reading music, how would it be any different?
@KingoBad - Sure playing it, in my previous example, simply eighth note to eighth note would take the soul out of it. But I simply mean why isn't it notated as it's played. I'm a very technical player, merely because most of my musical experience depended heavily on technicality. So in terms of learning a new song, it'd help me if the sheet music was written as played. Currently, I'm not at the stage to just listen to a song and decently duplicate it, not like I can on the violin.
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Diggsblues
317 posts
May 25, 2010
7:08 AM
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Jazz eighth notes aren't notated either.Try to play Charlie Parker heads as written.LOL It is sometimes
a study style.
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nacoran
1935 posts
May 25, 2010
9:53 AM
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There are alternatives to treble and bass clefs. I used to sing something called Sacred Harp Music. They used a system where the clef marker marked where Do was. If you marked music like that the only flats/sharps/naturals you need are for notes not in the key. In fact, you could put a blues key signature on it and away you go. Since the lines are labeled by Do Re Mi instead of by letter, all you have to do is learn one set of lines and you can pick up a harp in any key and play it. You'd have to learn how to switch through positions, but if you know your positions that wouldn't be hard at all. In fact, you could make up a marker near the key signature that would tell you what position to play in. As for rhythm, I'm all for using classical note layout for that. Octave splits, chords? Just write them out like you would for normal sheet music.
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Nate
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barbequebob
859 posts
May 25, 2010
10:44 AM
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First of all, written music notation was designed around classical music many centuries ago and for jazz as well as blues, it often falls short. In fact, I had read an interview with Duke Ellington and he had mentioned that he had to practically invent extra notation figures to describe stuff like smears for horns, and the present day music notation, again based on classical music norms, just doesn't cover it.
The closest thing to any sort of transcription of the flat tire groove would only be found in sheet music for drums, and even that isn't totally adequate. Diggs is really got it right here.
Years ago, some classical chromatic harp players often complained when modern composerrs were writing pieces for the instrument that they often didn't take into account that certain phrasings could be a nightmare for the instrument just because of the breath shifts (going from blow to draw and vice versa) and the legato of the phrase could wind up being pretty disastrous.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Tin Lizzie
68 posts
May 25, 2010
11:01 AM
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I prefer playing by ear myself, but did you know that David Barrett's stuff includes traditional musical notation and tablature?
Neither notation nor tablature manage to capture the harmonica textures that I love.... Nor does it really nail the phrasing.
I just found something called mapping that I like. I was already doing something like that anyway but this has some ideas that are new to me. I read about it in a book called Music for the Joy of It but it comes from someone nameed Rebecca Shockley. It's described as a Gestalt approach to learning music. You learn the basic structure of the music first and then fill in the details.
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Tin Lizzie
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
433 posts
May 25, 2010
11:05 AM
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There's nothing wrong, of course, with making up your own notation figures. I've never really sat down and tried to transcribe music for the diatonic, I play that strictly by ear. Anytime I want to play something from a sheet of music, I play it on chromatic. I can see a lot of problems you'd run into trying to write down what's going on with a diatonic harmonica. Chords and thirds and fifths and octaves would be easy, regular notation takes care of that. But, there's not only notes, but notes in between the notes, say you bend the four draw down a little as you go to four blow or 3 draw or something, but you're not going all the way down to Db. How dow you write that? You could figure out a way, but it seems that the notation would be so full of marks and symbols, it would be really hard to read.
Back in the medieval days, you could just make up whatever lines and staff you wanted based on the situation. Your lines could start on whatever pitch you wanted and you could have as many or few as you wanted. If you came up with some system that works for you, the standard notation police will not hunt you down.
The great harmonica bands back in the day had the same problems you are having. They didn't go out and buy music and just play it, they had to arrange it for harmonica, they had all kinds of descriptive words "roll," etc. to define what they were doing. I think if you ever want to have any peace with your notation, you're going to have to make your own arrangements.
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barbequebob
862 posts
May 25, 2010
1:02 PM
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It's great to be able to sight read, but once you undeerstand that, like everything else, they do have its limitations, you move on and find your way around it.
@Elk River. I've met a few of those old time harmonica band guys and that is 100% as they told me much the same thing.
@TinLizzie. I agree, but it is still the effort to learn to sight read or at least understand basic music theory.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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lumpy wafflesquirt
209 posts
May 25, 2010
1:33 PM
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what amazes me is that all the tabs I have seen have no concept of rhythm or length of notes, this is for harp or guitar [not that I am a guitarist]. how does one play a tune that you don't know from a tab? you have to have heard it first to know how it goes.
I play diatonic by ear, but I am practicing the chrom from written music. bizarrly because I spent many years playing trombine in big bands [which helps me to swing rather than play it straight] most of my music books are in Bass clef, but fortunatley in concert pitch so I play a mixture of bass clef and treble clef on my C chromatic.
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"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
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barbequebob
864 posts
May 25, 2010
1:45 PM
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Lumpy, that's also why I don't put a whole lot into the tabs because when it comes to rhythm and groove, they fall miserably short. Too many players don't take the time to something as simple as learning to tap their feet so that both heart,mind, AND body FEELS the time and the groove happening. Tabs MAY give you the right notes, bends,or what not (but I've also seen tabs that were big time wrong as well), but for time, rhythm, and groove, two words come to mind: FORGET IT!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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ElkRiverHarmonicas
435 posts
May 25, 2010
1:55 PM
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@ DJKIM & BOB Some examples of creative harmonica notation I can think of that I have personally seen are some of Pete Pederson's arrangements for the Harmonicats, etc.
Pete's chord harmonica arrangments I've seen were written like standard notation for drums in chord chart notation format: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_chart
I've also seen chord music written in slash notation, which is intentionally vague.
I've also seen some chord chart notation arrangements that have stuff like this above the lines "release OOTATA OOTA OOTA" and "Rhythm TATA TA TA TAA or DUH DUH DUH DUH DA"
So my point is, those guys, when faced with the limitations of standard notation, found stuff that worked for them. The man to talk to about this would be Al Smith of The HOTSHOTS. He's probably the best harmonica arranger I can think of off the top of my head. Al has written notation for musical gloves even, so I'm sure he'd have some ideas about anything that one could possibly wonder about arranging. Among other things, David Doucette, the greatest harmonica arranger ever, lived in Al's house for four years. Al's got quite a few arranging techniques up his sleeves.
Dave
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nacoran
1942 posts
May 25, 2010
2:04 PM
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I think a lot of tabs are written by people who don't know much about notation. Most instruments it's pretty obvious what note you are playing, but figuring out the rhythm takes counting. Let's face it, guitar players can't count with their fingers if their fingers are already tied up figuring out what note they are playing. :)
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Nate
Facebook
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Diggsblues
318 posts
May 25, 2010
5:37 PM
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Learning to read music can be a great help. Studying
styles will help complete the picture.
When I did Big River the harmonica part was written out.
It helped but studying the recording helped it to be
played in the proper style.
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hvyj
382 posts
May 25, 2010
7:27 PM
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I don't sight read, but i can make sense of a chart if i am given enough time to look at it. Most of the sheet music i look at is not for harmonica anyway. if I'm having trouble figuring out a tune, i'll find sheet music for some other instrument or have a musician friend give me a chart they have and I use it to figure out the melody notes.
I very rarely have to work from sheet music, but i can do it if I get the chart ahead of time and so long as I have a general idea of how the tune is supposed to sound. I am under the impression that most music isn't played exactly as it's written anyway.
As far as how the music is supposed to be played and how it is supposed to sound, I am not capable of figuring that out just from looking at notation or tab. I need to listen to a recording or hear another musician play it. But I have no formal musical training, and I play no other instruments--so being self taught is my excuse.
Last Edited by on May 25, 2010 7:34 PM
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gene
479 posts
May 25, 2010
9:09 PM
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In a lot of sheet music, the song may be notates 1/8-1/8 instead of a dotted 1/8-1/8 with a flag. The dots and flag clutter up the page.
At the top of the page it may say something like "moderate blues shuffle." That means play the shuffle; not straight 1/8s.
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"How does one play a tune that you don't know from a tab?
"You have to have heard it first to know how it goes."
That's all they're meant for. You have to know the song.
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Having standard notation for harmonica is problematic. You would have to memorize what hole is what note on each of 12 key harps.
David Barrett's notation gives us the best of both worlds. He has the harp tab printed under each note of standard notation. However, he always writes the notation in the key of C. So whatever key you want to play, just pick up the harp you want and follow the lenghth of notes and rests, but read the tab to play the right notes.
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