(I know everything I say here has been said before. But it hasn't been said by me, dammit!)
Overblows- I can't do them. Used to do them, accidentally, when I first started playing. I'd blow too hard on a reed and get this harsh, wince inducing sound. I had no idea that sound might be good for something till I heard Howard Levi with Bela Fleck and the Flecktones, and Adam Gussow's YouTube lessons. Howard and Adam both sound good using overblows. But-- as a rule, I do NOT like them.
Here's why:
I like getting a full throated roar when I play my harp, at home or on stage. I like hearing that roar when I listen to other harp players. I love it when someone digs into a note and gives it everything (s)he's got. Think James Cotton at the climax of "The Creeper". Think Junior Wells backing up Muddy Waters in early 50s "Who's Gonna Be Your Sweet Man", or Standing Around Crying", or his own "Hoodoo Man Blues" from 1953. An overblown note cannot get that sound.
My other problem with overblown notes-- the timbre of an extended overblown note is so different from the other notes as to sound unmusical, to me. Others have pointed this out. I acknowledge that a conventionally bent note's timbre is likewise different from a naturally sounded one. But it's not unmusical, providing you have the ability to bend instantly and precisely to pitch. An overblown note is good, at best, as a passing note, where the listener doesn't have time to notice its unnatural timbre (or slight deviation from true pitch, for that matter).
That said, I'd love to have one overblow trick up my musical sleeve-- to overblow hole six on a 10 hole diatonic. I hear that sound in my head sometimes, but can't get it. The rest of the overblows I don't need.
My last problem with overblows-- I blow hard, a lot of the time. I need to wail. (I play delicately too, to set up the wail; i.e. I use dynamics.) If I modify my harps to have the close reed gaps needed to facilitate overblows, I'm pretty sure my wailing would result in a choked note instead of an exciting passage in the song. That's scary. I'll stick to my loose reeds.
Emotionally, I've always played from that area residing below a musician's neck-- the heart and gut. Overblowing is for players who play from their head. It's all good, but it's not for me, a blues player. Not a rock player, not a jazz player, not a country player. Blues be it.
Without addressing the other parts of your post, some of which have empirical merit in my opinion, and others of which are themselves simply opinion and therefore are neither good or bad... this part:
"An overblown note is good, at best, as a passing note, where the listener doesn't have time to notice its unnatural timbre (or slight deviation from true pitch, for that matter)."
... is false. Overbends do not have to be out of pitch. They are bendable, and when learning them, you have to learn how to play them in pitch. It's true that it's a challenge to consistently play overbends in tune, but it is absolutely doable. They are also sustainable, so it's not true that they only work as a passing note.
It's fine if you don't care for the OB/OD technique and the styles of play that typically use it. A lot of people (including some excellent players) feel the same way. But don't say it's for a reason that doesn't actually exist.
Scott Albert Johnson http://scottalbertjohnson.com
"Overblows- I can't do them." = then you should STFU seriously. I don't care who you've played with or who you are, if you can't do it perfectly then your opinion on them is bullshit.
As the resident expert on Overblows and world class OB clown, allow me to tell you all how it really is...
OBs are overrated.
However, this clip demonstrates the PERFECT employment of OBs
.
I hate that players think they are some kind of advanced player because they can pop out an OB. They do sound like shit most of the time but the same goes for bends and straight notes of course I'm talking about 9.5/10 players in the world. There are however a few people that truly have it together, Adam, Howard, Jason etc... they would probably say OBs are over-rated as well because they are simply nothing more than another note, tone or sound. If you can't make them sound good then you simply have more work to do.
Blues is overrated. Now that's something that can be discussed.
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 02, 2010 4:43 PM
"Emotionally, I've always played from that area residing below a musician's neck-- the heart and gut. Overblowing is for players who play from their head"
Are you actually claiming that people who use OBs play with no feeling, soul or passion. Seriously?
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
It's unfair to make a judgement on overblows or overdraws until you've tried a real custom harp. With Joe Spiers' harps my overblow and overdraw notes are loud, clear, easily bendable, and just as emotional as any other note. By the way, you have to learn to play from your head first before you can play from your heart - that goes for all of us. Once it's in your head and becomes a part of you, then it flows out from the heart and soul.
I never fully appreciated overblows and overdraws until I got into Joe's harps. Now they flow just as naturally as any other note. Joe can also set up the harp so that you can overblow easily, but still play like Little Walter.
It doesn't matter, 99.9% (approximately because I did 1 second of research in my head) of people in any given audience or small gathering of friends can't even differentiate one harmonica player from the next. Not to mention whether that person overblows, tongue blocks, puckers, plays in different positions, is or isn't in key, etc.
What they can sometimes sense is that a person is a good showman/show-woman and plays with some feeling. I think gear/equipment is overrated, but so many harmonica players obsess over it and try to replicate someone elses setup. If you enjoy your instrument, it will come through in your playing (unless you are awful at it).
I'm a young whippersnapper who loves the sound of overblows. I first heard Howard Levy playing them and really dug his playing so it inspired me to learn them. I didn't say to myself, "Oh, gee, that Howard is something else, but I shouldn't try to figure out what he's doing because, well, I don't like overblows and it will inhibit my balls to the wall racous playing style AND there's NO way I could learn TWO ways of playing".
Personally, when it comes to harmonica, I don't look for reasons to NOT learn a technique or style. There are techniques that I don't necessarily prefer, but I feel that knowing them adds diversity to ones playing. All things aside, this is a Modern Blues Harmonica forum. Making a statement against the advancement of the instrument seems counter-productive here.
Hi harpwrench, thanks for asking if I have anything to share, playing-wise. Me with John Lee Hooker, all I got is our 78s. The whole YouTube thing escapes me. Kidding. I do have some reel-to-reel, transferred to casette, then digitized. So the sound isn't the greatest, but you will get an idea of my playing. To download a package of me playing with John Lee Hooker (1976) and Albert Collins (1978) download from
You'll also get a harp instrumental I wrote, Sloe Gin. For the gearheads in this forum, my setup back then was Marine Band diatonics to a Shure PE585V Microphone to my stock 1962 Fender Concert amp, which I still have and use. (I'm working on the M in MBH, I'll get there!)
I'm still playing and recording. I play in a three piece combo, piano/vocal + drums + harmonica. We made a CD this Christmas, with a rhythm guitar added to the mix. The singer wrote two of the songs. To hear those songs, and more, download from
For the gearheads in the forum, my setup for this CD was... nothing. Totally acoustic, standing about a foot away from a good quality microphone-- a Neumann, if I remember correctly. Have a listen to Merry Christmas Baby-- it is bluesy! Warning, the songs are incomplete, as I am forbidden to share whole songs by the singer, since she wrote some of them. Despite my lyrical waxings about blues music, two of the songs are pop. Are they modern? Probably not. All of the harp parts were done in one take.
Harpwrench, I watched and listened to your YouTube video as you sat in with Lee McBee. I've got a CD of him playing with Mike Morgan and the Crawl. Great stuff. You, like me, would not be accused of playing Modern Blues Harmonica, emphasis on the Modern. But I heard lots of good stuff there-- good tone, good time, and you've definitely listened to LW's solo in My Babe a few times. I think it's one of those solos that every blues harp player learns or tries to learn at some point.
LeeEdwards, good call. I can't, and won't claim that people who use OBs play with no feeling, soul or passion. The statement I made in that regard was over the top, and I take it back. By the way, the name I gave to the topic (Overblows/Overrated) was deliberately provocative. I wasn't trolling, but I wanted to generate some discussion about overblows. Overdraws too, I guess.
In the end, we all love music, we all love harmonica, and most of us love blues, right? I have a feeling there's a higher ratio of players to non-players in this as opposed to other music forums; one of the reasons I like this forum.
I'm going to try and round up examples of the "modern" blues harmonica players I like and state why, for another post. Maybe even the ones I don't like, and why, always remembering things like this are matter of opinion driven by one's basic taste in music. Totally off topic-- I've been listening to a lot of Gypsy music lately, and can't get enough of it. Some of the stuff has absolutely irresistible rhythm!
If anybody wants to talk to me about things that might bore the Forum as a whole, my hotmail account can be found by clicking my user name.
I have also been listening a lot of gypsy music lately. European: Finnish, Hungarian, Flamenco + some northern India music which has lots of similarities. While playing those pieces I think you need to have OB there and there - and even OD's in the highest octave. But e.g. in Finnish gypsy music you can do with the natural minor scale most of the time so playing in 4th position spares you having to deal with the OB's.
About the OB's generally. I think they are both over- & underrated. Underrated as a sense that the notes that you can get with OB's would not be as important as the other notes (well, perhaps in the conventional blues harp playing they aren't). Overrated as sense that it would probably be a lot wiser to just learn to play with some alternated tuning like spiral tuning or Jim's "trueHarmonics" tuning - instead of using years to just to get the technical skills to a level where the OB's are solid and precise..
I'm not personally a great fan of overblows as I have stated on previous occasions. However I do think that they have a place in music. It's just my preference not to use them.
I can see why some people like using them in a blues context, but when it comes to playing jazz, classical, pop, etc and wishing to play chromatically. I can't see why people wouldn't just choose to use a chromatic harmonica instead. The tonality exhibited by most people playing chromatically on a diatonic in genres outside of blues (and maybe country music) is so close to the chromatic, that I honestly don't see any real tangible benefits in using it.
For example if you listen to the audio clip that Chris Michalek posted. It is extremely good playing as usual by Chris, although it's overall tonality owes more to the chromatic work of Stevie Wonder and Toots than anything else. So I just can't see why it wouldn't be better to use the chromatic.
I'd be interested in hearing the reasons for and against choosing to use a diatonic played chromatically over the chromatic harmonica, when playing in genres outside of blues. ----------
I guess if you played for 20 years and were unaware of overbends it would be harder to incoporate them into your playing. I've been playing 4 years, heard about them early on,..... with practice and a short lesson from Adam on gapping, I was able to slowy incorporate them into my playing.
I won't lie...it has been a lot of hard work. It took me a while to learn to adjust the reed gaps to facilitate overbends....and it is true...hitting the overbend is not enough. You must also learn to move around the pitch of the note with control...while maintaining good tonality. It has taken me a long time to get to the point that I now use them some at jams and sitting in with bands. It will take a while before I am as comfortable with the high end overbends as I am the bottom 4 holes which newbie blues players like me get stuck at for awhile.
The goal for me is to maximize the potential of my playing. To me this means learning every harmonica technique available to me to the best of my abilities.
I can get 39 notes out of a 10 hole diatonic not counting several that are duplicated, but I cannot tongue-block to one side to save my ass. Billy Gibson gave me some help at HCH so I'll keep practicing.
My grandaughter asked if I could play Somewhere Over the Rainbow so I hooked up with Dorothy and Toto on youtube to figure it out. In first position, starting on 4 blow, I took off. When I got to the part "away above the chimney tops" I realized I needed the 5 ob in the phrase. Even though I am a blues guy, I can already see that knowing overbends is going to be very useful as I venture into other genres.
Learning to bend and move the pitch around on overbends has been a great tool for developing my ear.
I respect those who choose not to use overbends, but I won't knock a technique if I have not given it my all....embochure, equipment set-up, relaxation, technique, and much practice is what it takes.
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2010 3:38 AM
@Kingley: I don't know if there's some general things which would make it more beneficial to learn OB's than use chromatic harps, but here's why I choose to do that.
1) Bending. My main reason to start playing harp were the bends. After I quitted guitar playing I tried out many instruments but they seemed to lack something - that was the bending. You just can't get that out of the chromatic. And this doesn't apply just to the blues, also many gypsy songs and eastern music uses lots of microtonal bends etc. The 2nd & 3rd hole draw bends are something that makes diatonic harp very versatile instrument - and I suppose the upper octave bends do that also, although I'm not very good at those yet.
2) Blues. Although I don't consider blues to be the ultimate musical genre, I do play in a blues band, write blues songs etc. Because of the bending abilities of diatonic harp it is way too cooler instrument in generally in the blues.
3) Because of the above reasons I started learning the regular diatonic harp. Now it just seems too big job to learn alternative tunings to be used with chromatic scales - it seems to be actually easier to learn OB's instead. I do have chromatic harps and I sometimes play those, but because I have limited amount of time to practice I rather put it to the diatonic harp.
4) Size matters. Diatonic harp is very easy to carry around in your pocket. I have 10-hole chromatic also, but even that is too big to just carry with in case you have few minutes time to practice somewhere. This actually works for the OB's too - I usually carry just 1 or 2 harps with me. If I wish to play along some songs I hear on the radio etc, I have to be able to use several positions, which of few needs some OB's too..
5) Lessons. Almost all of the material on the net & books is targeted to richter diatonics. If somebody would start with some other tuning system it would require a lot more self-learning.
So I guess for me at least there are several reasons why I prefer diatonic harp over chromatics, even with other genre's than the blues. Not all of them are about the tonality, but also about the practicalities. But I guess that if I didn't play blues I would consider learning some other tuning system over the richter one.
Btw, a friend of mine who has been playing blues harp for more than 40 years started to learn OB's just recently. He actually learned them pretty fast when he put his mind on that..
I agree that a lot of crap is talked about OBs in terms of harp pissing contests, and in that sense OBs are overrated. But in an anally retentive 12-bar blues context, eg in G, there is absolutely no reason apart from technical ignorance not to use the 7 OB to get a high Bb, whether passing, wailing or bending the bugger up to A. It's called music. Presumably The Owl broke some club rule or other when he retuned his harps for Canned Heat.
Apskarp - Thank you for the in-depth explanation. You make some excellent points. I can understand why you do what you do. Most of what you are saying though is still based on it's role in blues. I can already see the benefits from a modern blues players perspective. My question was really aimed specifically at non blues stylists. ----------
Paul "Kingley" Routledge My YouTube Page
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2010 5:37 AM
"I can see why some people like using them in a blues context, but when it comes to playing jazz, classical, pop, etc and wishing to play chromatically. I can't see why people wouldn't just choose to use a chromatic harmonica instead. "
For me the diatonic is more fluid. There is a certain smoothness and richness that you can't achieve with the chromatic. I used to play chromatic and decided it was too clunky.
Check out this clip. I love Tollak's playing. I think he's a great musician but personally, I think a well played diatonic would sound better.
I think one of the biggest issues with the harmonica is perception and most of it is due to Tommy Morgan. He's one of the best ever on the harmonica but his diatonic skills are lacking and because he's regarded as a harmonica God and so prolific in the session world he has more or less defined the sound of the diatonic harmonica for producers.
I can't tell you how many times, industry pros have commented on my sound "I've never heard anything like that" Then I usually bring up Howard Levy but they haven't heard of him but Tommy Morgan's name almost always comes up.
Awareness is growing and as more producers become aware of the sound of the diatonic in capable hands, the new crop of OB style players will have serious work in the future.
Change the perception of the harmonica guys. Do what you can. Always play your best even when practicing. The landscape is slowly changing and if you want a piece of it, prepare now.
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2010 6:38 AM
I choose to add chromaticity to my playing by using the half valving method which allows for additional bending, (both blow and draw notes,) to complete the scale. My point is that a huge part of what people like and identify as diatonic, is the bending and shading of the notes. A have just posted a new clip to my You Tube page as an example: To my ears there is no mistaking that this is a diatonic... tonal wise as well as pattern wise. Brendan Power and I did a duet CD in 2008 titled ”Back To Back” which features Brendan playing half valved chromatics and me playing half valved diatonics. Most people that have heard this project comment on how the two harmonicas blend, but retain their individuality. Also part of what you stated has to do with the fact that Chris plays a lot in 11th and 12th positions which pattern wise sound more like a chromatic. I suspect good over blowers, Chris being one of them, strive for the same thing I do...to stretch the instrument and retain the diatonic flavor. Playing without good intonation on overblows or half valving will indeed prompt the question...why not just play a chromatic. When done correctly however, I think it makes the diatonic that much more appealing.
@Buddha "Change the perception of the harmonica guys. Do what you can. Always play your best even when practicing. The landscape is slowly changing and if you want a piece of it, prepare now." Well said. Rational even. You are always good for a laugh. I'd say a lot more but I shouldn't expect a seat at this table until I post my playing -soon enough.
Chris and PT - Thank you for the insights into why you choose those options for non blues playing.
I can certainly see the point you make about the fluidity thing. It's also interesting to me that some positions sound more like chromatic than others do on the diatonic.
@blogward: There's no such note as a 7 overblow. Overblows are only possible on holes 1-6. Overdraws are possible on holes 7-10. Blow bends, of course, are possible on holes 7-10. And draw bends are possible on holes 1-6.
Overblows are no different from bends. They're a way of producing notes that aren't "really" on the harp. As with bends, in the hands of a skilled practitioner, they're in pitch and sound good. As with bends, they allow a skilled player to play a range of microtones between the "standard" pitches. This makes overblows (and overdraws), like bends, particularly useful for types of music--and blues in particular--that rely on microtones to create musical meaning.
Among the younger generation of blues players--Brandon, Jay, Alex Paclin, etc--overblows are no big deal. They're part of the toolkit. This is a result of several different factors, but it's particularly the result of the fact that Jason, Chris, Carlos, and I have been putting them out there in blues/funk/rock contexts for the past 20 years, and especially the fact that in the past three years, Jason has exploded in visibility. It's also a function of the fact that he, Chris, and I, and now Alex, have put a bunch of videos out there in which we talk about overblows, demystify them, and suggest some of their pleasures and uses.
To someone heavily invested in "the tradition" of the blues harmonica, which is to say the fantastic players listed in this websites Top-10 and Top-20 alltime greats lists, overblows may well seem beside the point--a distraction from the "real stuff." If none of those great players used them, why both with them?
This makes overblows--the simple fact of their existence in a blues context--a wedge issue. The ability to play overblows and (more importantly) to use them musically in a blues context may help distinguish innovators from those who are resistant to innovation. Please note the word "may."
This doesn't mean that one HAS to play overblows in order to innovate. Sugar Blue doesn't play overblows and he's certainly an innovator. Paul Delay didn't make much use of overblows, and he was a notable innovator. (Both of those players, interestingly, use blow arpeggios in 2nd position as a way to create new sounds.) But those of us who do play overblows and have been around for a while--myself, Jason, Chris, and Carlos--are each, in our own way, innovators within the blues tradition. We're trying in various ways to create new languages for blues, blues-rock, and bluesy funk.
Eleven years ago, in an interview with Ben Felten (if I recall), I said that in twenty years (i.e., 2019), it would be impossible to call onself a blues harmonica player if one weren't playing overblows. I was wrong, clearly. The weight of tradition is heavy; not everybody wants to be the next Little Walter or Sugar Blue or Jason Ricci or Paul Delay, which is to say, the next major talent to significantly modernize the language of the blues harmonica. Some people just want blues harmonica to be old-time music. This aesthetic position makes quite a bit of sense if one is playing un-amplified, acoustic music. It makes much less sense--and may even be philosophically indefensible--if one is committed to amplfied blues, since amplified blues harmonica was itself a pretty radical innovation in the blues world of its day. Being committed to amplifed blues harmonica while simultaneously being committed to resist overblowing is sort of like being a computer geek who is committed to Apple models circa 1982. They were fine, modern machines at the time, but a lot has happened since then. As I've said in the past, I have no problem with making a fetish of the past, as long as it's understood as such: a particular kind of subcultural fixation, one with its own distinctive pleasures, but not one that should be confused with cutting-edge innovation or--more importantly--one that should be confused with basic mainstream present-day creativity. The problem is, many contemporary players HAVE confused a backward-looking subcultural fixation with basic mainstream present-day creativity. Or at least that's the problem as I see it. But I'm aware that many people on this forum disagree with me, and that's OK. I'm simply trying to create a little more space for innovation, especially among younger players who are coming onto the scene and trying to figure out how they're supposed to orient themselves towards this thing called blues harmonica. I certainly want them to master the tradition, but I don't want them ever to feel burdened by it.
What made Kim Wilson special in the late 70s and early 80s was that he found a new way of being modern, by fusing Little Walter's stylistics with a big Texas roadhouse groove. He was a modernist, back then. He's not particularly a modernist now, and that's fine: most players settle down and settle back as they age. But for precisely this reason, it's important for younger players to keep looking for ways to make their mark by making it new.
Overblows are a part of this modernizing philosophy, but they're certainly not the whole of it; that's why I've mentioned Kim, Sugar, and Delay.
Edited to add: Of course, some younger players will be attracted to overblows precisely BECAUSE they seem effortlessly to make one "cutting edge," without spending enough time mastering them to make them sound very good. This is to be expected. Once the hammering technique had been developed in heavy metal, a million wannabe kid metalheads jumped on it, and not all of them were the next Steve Vai. It takes time to make overblows work for you, rather than against you. To this extent, I completely agree with the OP. Anybody who thinks, "Hey, if I learn to overblow, I'll be hip," is grossly overrating them.
Last Edited by on Jul 03, 2010 7:06 AM
@PT: I've been wondering - what's the difference with full-valved vs. half-valved harmonicas? I would be interested to try out valved diatonics as I've heard good things about them. Is there some web-page to learn about them?
@Kingley: You are right that big part of what I said was related to the blues, but also the Indian music & gypsy traditions that I have been investigating recently use a lot of microtonal bends. Btw, one thing that I forgot from my list is: 6) OB's are challenging as a pure technique - and for a nerd like me it is actually rewarding to just practice that technique even if there wouldn't be any musical use for them.. ;D
Found a good reference to half-valved harmonicas already: http://www.angelfire.com/music/HarpOn/chrom.html#valved
Actually half-valved (= Halved, my TM ;) diatonic harp could be very good alternative for learning OB's. I don't know how hard the valved bends are to master, but they can't be harder than the OB's.. And putting valves on the harp can't be harder job than setting up good OB harp. I mean the airtightness is already increased with the valves and you don't have to do such a precision job with the gapping either..
But perhaps PT or somebody with experience on working & playing with the halved harps can comment on this..?
harpwrench@ "My clip above has a 6 OB at approx 3:35, I've listened as objectively as I can and just don't see how it sticks out as being unmusical in any way. It's just another note, and not contrived for showing off. It was a LW song that I played from my heart including the 6OB." Agreed. I noticed exactly that and I watched the video before you posted this point. Great example, and playing I must add. Tongue blocking correctly, with tone, clear big TB chords, AND OB in a place where it "should" be.
nice! I wasn't watching the video for the time and actually missed the OB at 3:35 I had to go back and listen again. It was just as pleasurable the 2nd 3rd and 4th time I listened to the clip ---------- "All is bliss"
"Overblows- I can't do them." = then you should STFU seriously. I don't care who you've played with or who you are, if you can't do it perfectly then your opinion on them is bullshit.
Chris, this is over the top. That would be like saying don't comment on blues until you can play them perfectly. If that were true then you yourself wouldn't be entitled to comment on blues. And neither would anyone else with maybe the exception of Dennis Gruenling.*
Anyway, Wolf - this is a tired subject. OBs are what they are - just another technique you can use or not depending on your artistic (or egotistic!) goals.
I'm surprised to find myself agreeing with Ev360 on this particular point. We can't insist that only those who can overblow perfectly are entitled to comment on overblows, since that would exclude me. I'm not particularly good at sustaining overblows, and I'm fairly bad at putting vibrato on sustained OBs. I'm also pretty bad at raising the pitch of OBs. But I think I've earned the right to comment on them.
technique is not subjective. How you do it, what style of music you play is....
Either you can bend or you can't, Either you can OB or you can't. And if you can't do something then you have no business commenting on it.
How about this? I can't run, I and I don't run because it's useless. In fact science supports me in this, the human body wasn't designed for running or even walking long distances.
I don't see the value in running. It looks stupid and it's a waste of time. I'm old school, if I can't drive there or have it brought to me then I don't need it. Now where's my fucking remote?
We all agree that a note is a note. Let's say somebody can not produce a clean single blow four and that somebody condemns it as not worthy vs playing chords. His opinion would carry ZERO weight because he doesn't fully understand the technique nor does he even know how to do it.
Everybody can have an opinion but sometime it's just dumb as fuck. I used to be an athlete, I played middle linebacker in high school and college. Am I qualified to talk about long distance running? NO.
Last monday, I actually started running again. I can't run a full mile right now and even this morning I made it about 3/4 of mile before I had to stop. Perhaps my pace was too fast for where I am or the real answer is I do not currently have the capability to do it. I could do it with some time and effort and I used to run at least 3 miles daily when I first met my wife and before my injury. When I can run a mile in a reasonable amount of time. Preferably 6min or less but at this age I would accept a sub 7min mile then I can talk about the pros and cons of running ONE mile. I can't and shouldn't comment on running a marathon or even the merits of a 5K race (my goal for next spring)
The point is, you have to reasonably be able to do something to have a valid opinion on a technique and you should be an expert on a technique if you're going to stir the pot and rant like wolf. He looks like an idiot ranting about something he can't do. Likewise I would look like an idiot ranting about marathon runners. Right?
Also, take note, my quip to him was mostly not serious and in the end I agreed with him but there IS some validity behind my words.
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2010 6:41 AM
@Adam, my experience is that the closer the gap, the easier it is to raise the pitch, but there's a trade-off: it's harder to play such a note without overblowing, and for that reason I'm not desperate to play overblows that much. If you can do diaphragm Vibrato, that helps because it leaves the mouth in control.
Funny about swimming, I was going to suggest after Chris's first post that I can't swim, but I think Mark Spitz is/was pretty good.
Funny about running. At work we had a health freak and devoted fan of Richard Dawkins who claimed it was significant that a human could outrun a lion over a distance of 10 miles. I never could work out if he was a troll or an idiot. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
the bottomline is, if you can't do it then you simply haven't put in the time. OBs are no different than any other note. Lots of bends don't sound great either.
I can imagine this same conversation came up about bending notes and playing blues vs umm pa music.
OBs are here to stay and you will see most of the younger players using them as the harmonica evolves as a "real" instrument. The cool thing is, traditional blues will always be here and over the next few decades there will be people who dedicate themselves to 40-50s style blues in the way Filisko is a modern master of pre-war blues. These people will always be held in high esteem.
Don't fight the change as it will only leave you standing in mud.
no its not. Blues is subjective. Technique is not.
Actually, there are performers in the blues (and other genres) who are assessed as being great on an objective basis. Consensus in musical criticism can be arrived at objectively.
But, regardless, whether I like the RESULT of your technique is subjective. I may or may not like it when people use OBs because I objectively can hear that the pitch is off and the timbre differs markedly from standard techniques. On that basis, it may not appeal to me, subjectively and objectively.
The long shot is that I may not be able to play the jazz you play but I am certainly entitled to comment on it. Equally, you don't like the blues and never feel constrained to comment on it. You hate warbles, as is well known, and that is a technique you are judging subjectively.
Adam - why be surprised that we agree on something?
I'm not talking about the RESULT but rather the actual technique and that is NOT subjective. It's very black and white and I'd bet if wolf could actually do it properly then he would have a different attitude and perspective. Instead he chooses the path of "If I can't do it then it sucks"
talk about my blues all you want, the fact is I can actually play blues at a respectable level. I've forgotten more about playing blues than most will ever learn.
@kudzurunner: you might know by now I can't count. I do mean the 6 OB. Just that I use custom plates with a low #1, so I gets confused. The point stands.
My wonderful and beautiful girlfriend Linda surprised me with a 4th of July present last night: a Suzuki MR-500 "Firebreath" diatonic harmonica in the key of "C" so that I might learn overblowing. What a gal! Does anyone have any experience with this harp in terms of OB? In any event, it is a really fine sounding harmonica, very smooth and easy to play.
I've been that rainbow guy. Didn't like it then,would most certainly not like it now. Buddha-where do you find these clips? I can't OB so I can't comment on it. But as far as technique and notes that don't fit: I hear plenty of non OBer's whose technique or note placement I don't care for. Misplaced notes are misplaced notes.
Last Edited by on Jul 04, 2010 9:45 PM
talk about my blues all you want, the fact is I can actually play blues at a respectable level. I've forgotten more about playing blues than most will ever learn.
Hey man, I hear ya. I've forgotten more about OBs than most will ever learn.
Overblow's are over-rated by most of the under-rated harp players..
I am SO GLAD it has come to this. The REASON we are traditionalists is because we PAY attention to what people like, and what their tastes are. MIND YOU, "WE" experiment and innovate and improvisationize; but we pay attention to our audience...and fellow musicians.
OVERBLOWING IS AN OVERBLOWN FAD ! BY GRONKERS ! PERIOD!
It has no useful application for melodic, musical use.
IT IS NOISE ! GO AHEAD, Criticize me....but I will put up a simple Jimmy Reed shuffle against any of this Jimi Hendrix on steroids BS anyday.
I think the business about the lion was something to do with the guy's explanation for why we shouldn't eat meat. Here's a paradox: if it weren't for vegetarians, more of us would probably be vegetarian. You don't mind if I use this forum to practise my wit in, Adam, do you, as long as I only choose crappy threads to do it in? ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
"as long as I only choose crappy threads to do it in?" ROFL!
Off topic - being able to outrun a lioness over the 20 yards or so that you'd actually have (by the time you realised she and her sisters were there) is far more important.
On topic - overblows are just notes. Some people can play them well and some people can't; just like some people have good intonation on bends and some peopl don't. Overblows are now an established part of the canon whether you like them or not. Their existence takes nothing away from the greats who didn't use them, nor does it promote the new generation of players over them.
OK, on topic - good intonation on bends. Get a Bb harp or lower (maybe a B) and practise them. 2 draw 3 draw. My intonation on those harps is very good, but yesterday I found an orphaned track by Rice Miller on my iPod (it's probably from some harp compilation), where he plays an F harp, very rare for him. I tried to play along. God was I shit! Even if I regap my F harp, I'm going to have to do the practise all over again, or abandon high harps (even DeFord Bailey treated a C with some caution).
OK, maybe good intonation on bends isn't on topic. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2010 3:52 AM
Andrew: "Here's a paradox: if it weren't for vegetarians, more of us would probably be vegetarian"
So, if it weren't for the overblowers, we would all be playing overblows?
I can agree to that more than the vegetarian statement. I don't eat meat for the reasons of animal cruelty, the environmental impact of producing meat, and my health - in that order. I think vegetarians/vegans are nice people. I gather you dislike vegetarians?
"I'm a level 5 vegan: I don't eat anything that casts a shadow" (the Simpsons)
Apart from the fact that I wasn't being serious, Arzajac, I was playing with different definitions for the adjective vegetarian and the noun vegetarian.
---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 05, 2010 4:56 AM
