If you are talking about standard Richter tuned harmonicas, you use the same harp to play minor in second position as you would use to play major. BUT, to pull it off you MUST be able to hit 3D* dead on with precise accuracy EVERY time with no slurs and always avoid D7. Also, if the tune is a natural minor you must also completely avoid B2, B5 and B8. Playing minor in second position is NOT easy to do, and very few players are able to do it consistently well.
A very second position like alternative for minor key playing is to play fifth position which "feels" a lot like playing in second. Just use B2 for root, don't bend anything but D3 and try to avoid D5 and D9 if possible. There's actually more to it, but if you use this simple formula it's pretty hard to hit a really bad note.
Fifth position key chart: G minor=Eb harp/ Ab minor=E harp/ A minor=F harp/ B minor=G harp/ Bb minor=F#harp/ C minor=Ab harp/ Db minor=A harp/ D minor=Bb harp/ Eb minor=B harp/ E minor=C harp/ F minor=Db harp/ F# minor=D harp.
Fifth position is handy for minor key playing because it gives you the flat 3d, flat 6th and flat 7th without having to bend and you can play through all 3 registers. Very flexible. And no OBs required.
Btw, the Circle of Fifths DOES include minors--each major key has a relative minor. The relative major and relative minor have the exact same scale notes, but the major and the relative minor just start that scale on a different note of the scale.
This may be TMI, but to play in fifth position you use the same harp that you would use to play the relative major (of the minor key you want to play) in second position. For example, the relative major of A minor is C major. What key harp do you use for C major in second position? F. What key harp do you use for A minor in fifth position? F. See how this works? Well, if you don't, don't worry about it because you don't really need to know WHY fifth position works in order to play it. Suffice it to say that if you can play in second position, it should be no problem for you to play in fifth position.
Last Edited by on Aug 11, 2010 12:14 PM
A little OT,but last night at an open stage,the band played "Miss You'. I knew it was in 5th position on a D harp. I'd never played it before but knew the riff. hvyj-You're right! It is like 2nd pos.!I felt very comfortable moving around the harp and was even able to improvise a little. (I couldn't remember what Sugar did on the solo.)
I agree with hvyj. 5th position is great. Probably the most under-utilized position on diatonic harmonica. Probablly better on some minor songs than 3rd position. I love the blues scale in 5th as well...very cool to play the 4th, flat 5th, and 5th all on the 3 draw. In the second octave you can play the 6 overblow to get the flat fifth and bend up for the major fifth (very cool effect) or slide up to draw 7. You can also wail between the 5th and the flat fifth by playing the two blow bends on hole 10.
There's some debate about what key "Miss You" is actually in, but Sugar Blue plays the head in A minor on a D harp on the original version. Technically, this would be second position and SB bends the 3 draw a half step when he plays the head. Needless to say, SB has flawless technique and hits that bend with precise accuracy every time. The second position and fifth position scales have many common notes, though, so fifth position licks might work on this tune.
Fifth position is unquestionably better than third position for NATURAL minors. Third is better for dorian minors.
In fifth position B9 and B6 are the minor 3rd, D8 is the minor 7th and B8 is root. So you can do blues licks in the upper register with no problem in fifth position. I really like playing in fifth position and I use it quite a bit for playing minor keys.
Last Edited by on Aug 11, 2010 4:01 PM
Ha Ha Nothing like a few drinks to delude myself. No wonder it was a lot like 2nd-it was 2nd! Got out my D,and yep,that's what I'm doing. Damn! Thought I had a Eureka! moment there. Back to the woodshed.
Now you've got me confused. I start it on 2 draw,then 2 bent 1/2 step. Do you mean the 3 bent when he's descending? I hope that's what you're referring to-it is tricky.
Yes,now that sounds right. I had to really sit down and analyze what I did. My hat goes off to guys that can break it down and tab out what they do. I have a heck of a time with it. But I can play it. Honest! :)
What Ryan has tabbed out in second position is the way I've been playing it and i believe it is an accurate tab.
@Tuckster: Don't feel bad. I also have a difficult time transcribing from recordings. I mean, sometimes i can do it, but sometimes I struggle to hear all the intervals accurately, especially when there are 3 hole and 2 hole bends involved. I hear well enough to recognize when I'm playing it correctly, but transcribing what i hear on a recording to tab or even directly to the harp is not something I'm able to do consistently.
It never ceases to amaze me every time I visit the forum. The breath of knowledge and depth of understanding that some of the members have and moreover, are willing to share just blows me away (pardon the pun). Thanks for the insight folks. I've always played Miss You in 2nd on a D harp, and as hvyj points out, you've got to be precise with the 3D half step bend... not easy to do everytime. I can't wait to give 5th position a try.
I am totally lost when it comes to keys. Sometimes I know by rote. Many times I shuffle through my collection of harps until I find the one or two that fit my ear. That's my shame.
Rookie question: When you say a song is played in the key of E on an A harp does that mean that the rhythm guitar is playing E?
In a small band (blues,rock, folk, pop) setting, key of E means E is the root note. (If you are dealing with a symphony orchestra or large wind ensemble things can get a bit more complicated. I assume that is not the case so I will not elaborate. Please forgive me if I have made an incorrect assumption.) Don't get confused between the key of the song and the key of the harp. The direct answer to your question is Yes, if the key of E is called the rhythm guitar will be in E. Usually E infers E major but it could also be E minor or some other mode but E will be the root.
Once you know the key if the song, you can choose a harp.If you are using an A harp to play in the key of E you are in second position, a very popular choice for blues. You also have 12 other choices of harps to play in the key of E, 1st through 12th position.Use and E harp you are in 1st, use a B harp you are in 12th, but no matter which harp you choose that song is still in E and it will probably sound best if you are too! :-)
Are you familiar with the Circle of fifths? One is posted earlier in the threadabove. If not, I would highly recommend you get a hold of a chart and study it a bit. Here's a tool I created and use Circle of 5ths and harp chart It is an excel spreadsheet and has a circle of fifths a grand staff and a keyboard for reference and a harp hole chart that you can select the key from in a pull down menu. There is another pull down for the mode (Major Minor etc) that will shade out the notes on the harp not in that mode. This tool is very handy if you have a lead sheet and want to choose the best harp for a song (In my case that is the one that requires no overblows).
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 19, 2014 12:22 PM
"Rookie question: When you say a song is played in the key of E on an A harp does that mean that the rhythm guitar is playing E?"
Not just the rhythm guitar, everyone in the band, including the harmonica, is in E.
The key stamped on the harp doesn't mean you can't play it in other keys. Think of it like a trumpet or tenor sax. We say those instruments are in Bb, but that doesn't mean they can't play in all the keys. it just means they have to transpose. For a trumpet or tenor sax to play along with our song in E they have to think F#
I really need to take a class. My music study ended at EGBDF & FACE. I had looked at the circle of 5ths chart before I asked the question and was looking for an A that corresponded with E. I hoped it was that simple. Positions flummox me and I won't waste any more of your generous time to make me understand.
In a band situation I have used 3 techniques:
1: They tell me what key harp I should use if I hadn't taken notes in practice.
2: I look at the guitar and he is playing a D (the only chord I know on the git) so I pick up a G, maybe.
3: I shuffle through my collection.
I've been playing flute almost exclusively for the past 30 or so years due to this handicap although harp is my first love. Lazily, I broke out the harp only occasionally. Hate the shuffle and most bands I've played with prefer the flute.
I expect an AHA! moment any time now but I need to do some study first.
OK, you have determined the band is in D. Now grab your circle of fifths, find D. Use a D harp for first position. Go one step counterclockwise to find G, a G harp playing in D is second position, go one more step counterclockwise to C, a C harp in D is third position and so on.
Note that as you go around the circle clockwise one sharp is added each step. The order in which sharps are added is F,C,G,D,E,B. This matches the pattern around the circle from F to E. I remember this with the acrostic, Fat Cats Go Down An Elevator Backwards. Using this I don't need the circle in front of me, if the band is in E and I want to play in second, "An" comes before "Elevator" so I grab an A harp. If the band is in C and I want to play in second, "Fat" comes before "Cats" so I grab an F harp.
Flute, like my first instrument, the trombone, is a non-transposing instrument so we missed out on a lot of education that trumpet, clarinet, sax and french horn players got.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 19, 2014 2:15 PM
Maybe a concrete example will clarify things. Here's Amazing Grace in the key of G:
I'm sure you could easily play this melody on your flute, either by reading it or by ear (it starts on D and ends on G).
If you played this tune on flute with your band, you'd all be playing in G, right?
It so happens that this melody only uses five different notes: G, A, B, D and E. You can easily find those notes on a G harmonica (of course), but you can also find all those notes on a C or a D harmonica, no bending required.
So if you didn't want to play flute on this tune, you have the choice of at least three harmonicas: you could play it on a G harp (which we call straight harp or 1st position), a C harp (cross harp or 2nd position) or a D harp (12th position). No matter which harp you chose, you still be playing the same melody in G.
Make sense?
Last Edited by timeistight on Jun 19, 2014 3:11 PM
It makes sense. Just looking at the Amazing Grace score brings back memories without all the details. I see the whole notes, bridges, bars and flow. Knowing the tune helps a lot. I really need some offline time to absorb all this. The circle of 5ths will continue to evade my understanding until I crack a book but I am determined.
Again, thank you for your time and effort. My turn to do some work.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Jun 21, 2014 9:43 AM
Just-Michael Rubin is excellent at teaching music theory as it relates to harp. He has his "Meat and Potatoes" vids on Y-tube and he also does lessons via Skype. His vids have helped me a lot with music theory. I also suggest you commit to memory the circle of fifths. Treat it as if you were memorizing your times tables.
Thinking about this- isn't the blues scale just another minor form like natural or harmonic? It has a flatted 3rd that by definition makes it minor? Or is considered a separate form?
Sure. The blues scale is the minor pentatonic with one additional note. As long as you're careful about that note (the #4/b5) you can use the blues scale as a substitute for the minor pentatonic.
Use your ears, though. There are times when other minor scales work better.
instead of starting a new thread decided to revive this one.....I really love the sound(chords)of natural minor key harps.....these are played in second position.....the only songs that I have downpat are summertime and stjames infirmary in minors....does anybody know of any references(tabs)that will help me play melodies in 2nd position on the natural minor key harps?
