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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
riffs, licks, hooks, heads
riffs, licks, hooks, heads
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walterharp
477 posts
Oct 12, 2010
9:25 AM
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Hey all,
When I practice, I work on these, but rarely do they make it into my playing. I am not to worried about that because it seems that most players, even the pro's, don't sound good to me when the music seems like a bunch of riffs or licks thrown in to ornament the melody or a solo or comp for the singer. Mainly I just play and the ideas spin out, not that the ideas are better than the classic lines, but that is how it works for me. Probably I am unconsciously ripping them off rather than thinking about it.
I was wondering how many of you rely on borrowing these things from other players consciously, and why or why not?
Cheers,
Walter
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oldwailer
1383 posts
Oct 12, 2010
9:34 AM
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A riff is just like learning a word. Just because you can say "gooseberries" doesn't mean you need to say it every three words. You just let it lay there--then, when the need pops up--it pops out of your harp, naked and fully formed--just like it was an original idea.
It gets really obnoxious to hear entire solos that are just strings of gooseberries. . .
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Max-T
49 posts
Oct 12, 2010
9:38 AM
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I think oldwailer hit the nail on the head there.
the way I see it, learning licks or riffs or fills or whatever are part of your blues library, you get to the point where it becomes instinctive what lick you want to play with regards to what you've played already.
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"imagination is more important then knowledge" - Albert Einstien
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Andrew
1202 posts
Oct 12, 2010
9:44 AM
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I practise riffs to develop technique and strength and confidence. I think it's good to imitate someone else to find out how they did it. But that should be where it ends. Mostly I play alone of course, so it's not an issue yet, but one of the things I believe strongly is that musicians make "mistakes", fortuitous ones, and if one copies those, one sounds like an idiot. Jimi Hendrix used to wipe the sweat off his frets with his sleeve. Two stupid things you could do are a) imitate that sound, b) wipe the sweat off your frets at the same place in the music, not when your frets are wet! A person should always make his own mistakes, not someone else's. I think that's a good general principle - I use it a lot when reading Greek and Latin literature - I don't have faith in anyone's translation!
I think it helps to play music that was never originally played on a harp - that helps you to avoid clichés and too much imitation. If you hear a sax solo, you should also have the confidence to make changes to it to suit you. That's probably easier than making changes to a Sonny terry solo. I realise I'm talking more from theory than from practise here.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2010 9:46 AM
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hvyj
699 posts
Oct 12, 2010
9:57 AM
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Too many harmonica players don't learn music--they learn to play riffs and licks. Then, when they perform with other musicians, they try to force feed the riffs and licks they know how to play over whatever the band happens to be playing. This is an unfortunate reality that contributes to giving harp players in general a bad rep among musicians.
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HarpNinja
691 posts
Oct 12, 2010
10:07 AM
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+1 to what hvyj said. In my experience of listening to other harmonica players what I hear most in order:
1.)aimless noodling/wailing/riffing (I am guilty as charged of doing this)
2.)recycling of specific licks learned (I can honestly say I avoid this to a large extent)
3.)real "music"
The same is true of other instruments too, though.
I am going to be harsh here and say if you are trying to solo with other musicians that learning heads/riffs is a waste of time. Transposing solos is a solid approach (please don't always learn harp solos), but almost always misued, and often times wasteful. Learning the melody of a song, and how to solo around it, is a great approach. Learn the head/hook if you are going to actually play it.
I'd be much more concerned with rhythm, dynamics, tone, melody, and pacing. All of this can be learned by studying scales, arpeggios, and patterns.
Really, everything is simply rhythm and tone. You can use the blues scale all night, but if you can vary your rhythms and tones, you'll have fresh music and a musical direction all the time.
Going back to point 2, which I said I often avoid, I may play the same interval patterns frequently, BUT I vary the rhythm.
Think of all the ways you can play 2 2 3' 4+ 5! There are endless possibilities!!!!!
If you learn a riff/hook/lead/scale/pattern take the time to learn how to abuse it as a motif instead of having to be played the same way all the time. Billy Gibson is great at this.
Then also accept that you will eventually recycle certain moves and they eventually become part of your style, and no one sounds fresh playing a whole 3hr show.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2010 10:09 AM
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Andrew
1203 posts
Oct 12, 2010
10:15 AM
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Well, until you can play all the OBs and ODs, bent and unbent, riffs on the harp are bound to outweigh "music".
On the other hands, guitarists can be the worst offenders, lol! (I think I know what shredding means)
Aimlessness is caused by musical insensitivity, not by overdependence on riffs.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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nacoran
2971 posts
Oct 12, 2010
11:46 AM
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I actually haven't learned many songs that already have harp parts. Usually I'm playing along with something we just wrote. First I learn the vocal melody so I become familiar with the melody (sometimes I'll follow a different instrument.) Then I try to add variation and harmony. It usually takes a bunch of times through for me and at first it sounds like I'm stealing licks. Then it seems like I'm aimlessly noodling. Hopefully in the end it sounds like music. I really admire people who can do that on the fly.
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Nate
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HarpNinja
693 posts
Oct 12, 2010
12:13 PM
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@Andrew,
I don't understand. OBs/ODs are just a way of playing SOME notes. You can access the same pitches via other means. You don't have to OB/OD to play musically.
For example, Little Walter and Kim Wilson are very musical in their playing.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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hvyj
702 posts
Oct 12, 2010
12:21 PM
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Hooks and heads are identifiable parts of a tune that generally must be played note-for-note (or close to it) in order for the tune to be played correctly so it sounds right. Too many harp players who regurgitate riffs and licks aren't able to play the hooks and heads correctly.
Getting the melody (or hook or head) consistently right is, IMHO, usually much more difficult than soloing or improvising around a melody, hook or head.
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2010 12:29 PM
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Andrew
1204 posts
Oct 12, 2010
12:29 PM
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Harpninja, "real music", you implied, was something other than riffs. Now we seem to be saying little more than that riffs can be played musically. It's a bit like the tricks thread, where no-one asked what was meant by tricks until quite late on.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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HarpNinja
694 posts
Oct 12, 2010
12:49 PM
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@Andrew - I still don't get what that has to do with OBs/ODs, and I don't think you understood the intent of my post.
I didn't define my third trend in playing. There is nothing wrong with learning some riffs, etc. The issue is when someone is just jumping from recycled riff to riff to riff without any real direction. That is similar to how pattern players can end up just wanking the same pattern all over the harp over and over without direction.
I also stated that if someone is trying to play with a band, learning riffs, etc, isn't as beneficial as other aspects of music. However, if one isn't playing with a band and just wants to learn songs or jam along with CDs, then that's fine...but I still feel that that is not the way to learn to play with a band.
The issue with riffs, licks, hooks, and heads is if you are trying to improvise a solo, they can be limiting in what you can play/create, don't always make sense, make you repeat riffs once you run out of memorized riffs, and often have you so worried about what riff to play next you don't listen to the band.
When I first moved to MN, I went to a blues show on my birthday. I had been playing less than two years. I was introduced to a harp player that appeared to be amazing. He was standing outside with me playing riff after riff and solo after solo from all these songs and harp players I loved. He nailed it! I was floored.
He then was asked to sit in with an excellent traditional blues band. He tried to call out a song he knew, but he only knew the song names. He ended up just jamming on a 12 bar shuffle. He instantly got lost in the progression and literally played the same flashy Sugar Blue riff for his entire lead and then another flashy Charlie McCoy riff over and over for rhythm. He couldn't transpose one of his memorized solos on top of the groove.
I was a very impressionable harp player and had just started playing harp in a band. This was a huge moment for me as I learned the dangers of learning riff after riff and not how to phrase try and connect ideas together. I also learned that playing with a band is way different than learning a bunch of harp vocabulary.
A few years later, I was at a David Barrett class where he was literally teaching riff after riff. He then, like in his books, explained how to take a riff and build a solo around riffs. I think his approach can work really well for blues, but is really just a mathematical way to try and make sense out of all those memorized solos. It was a clever way of handling a player who only understood how to learn riffs but not create music with them.
I firmly believe that too many harp players learn riff after riff and a lot of them would be better served by learning how to manipulate fewer riffs into musical passages that contain dynamics, various rhythms, many textures, and coherence.
Learning techniques along with some basic music theory makes this fairly easy.
If one is going to learn some one else's work note for note, I'd rather them steal a brief idea here and there and use it to create a melody and motif rather than quoting a whole solo or trying to force a hook into a solo.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
Last Edited by on Oct 12, 2010 12:56 PM
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barbequebob
1330 posts
Oct 12, 2010
1:02 PM
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Even with all the licks you can learn, bottom line is that if it is not in sync with the groove, it will sound like noodling and everything you play should have an underlying sense of groove even without any sort of backing happening.
I've gone the route of learning note for note, but unless I'm getting paid to play it that way, I prefer to give my spin on it, but at the same time, you will get a taste and feel for how that player thinks while trying to avoid cliches.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
695 posts
Oct 12, 2010
1:10 PM
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Exactly...Liquidfire's recent clips post is a perfect example of really solid and deceivingly simple harmonica that kills because of the groove. He also works a motif really well.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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