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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Another really, really stupid question.
Another really, really stupid question.
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tookatooka
1864 posts
Nov 18, 2010
8:59 AM
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Do ra me fa so la te do, are the phonetic? names given to the notes of the scale eg. the white keys on a piano.
But what are the names (if any) for the black keys?
Do ? ra ? me fa ? so ? la ? te do.
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Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2010 9:00 AM
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The7thDave
200 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:06 AM
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According to this, traditional Solfege doesn't have them, but there is a chromatic variant (ra, re, ri, etc.):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege
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--Dave
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Last Edited by on Nov 18, 2010 11:52 AM
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The7thDave
201 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:14 AM
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Lee--according to the WP article, there are two basic systems of Solfege used in different parts of the world: "fixed do" (where each syllable corresponds to a note name); and "movable do" (where each syllable corresponds to a scale degree).
The chromatic variant only applies to the "fixed do" system, of course.
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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Xpun3414
119 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:17 AM
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Never a stupid question... to ask is to learn.
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The7thDave
202 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:20 AM
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A "stupid question" is a question that everyone secretly hopes someone else will ask.
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--Dave
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* BTMFH *
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MP
1015 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:22 AM
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indeed, in the C scale all those notes are white keys.
but.... lets say the scale is C#. [Do],because it is C#, is going to be a black key.
in the D scale [Mi] is going to be a black key because it is F#.
in short, the piano keys Do Re Mi etc. change from key to key.
BUT>>if you mean phonetic sounds for the half step intervals on a twelve tone CHROMATIC scale, there are names for those too. Do (di) Re etc. di being the half step name.
i can't remember the spelling for all of them, but if you look up 'chromatic scales' you should find them easily.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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steve j.
66 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:26 AM
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Ok, since Tooka stepped out I will ask a "stupid" question
Are the only harps available /{stock w/ JI tuning ,,} the souls voice & 1923?
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Various Musical ramblings
http://www.youtube.com/user/sjeter61?feature=mhum
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LeeEdwards
104 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:30 AM
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@The7thDave - Thanks for the link.
I think the history of Solfege is an interesting topic, but I believe that it is highly impractical as an improvement aid.
If you play a major scale often enough you will train your ear to the sound of the scale and it's intervals.
So, all that solfege seems to give are alternative labels to the notes that we already know the alphabetical names of.
Saying that, here is a link to a page that gives the entire chromatic scale and more in solfege and includes hand signals. Crazy.
http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/scales/solmization/syllables.html
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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MP
1017 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:35 AM
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good question steve!
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Swezey8
35 posts
Nov 18, 2010
9:55 AM
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Yeah they're are names for the *accidentals in a scale. Like MP said, tonic (1) is going to be do no matter if it is a white key or black (on piano). It definetely gets confusing though unless you have lots of practice in fixed solfege systems. Do di ra re ri...can't get pretty confusing.
At FSU when studying ear-training we used scale degrees which I find a lot easier. If you're working on ear-training/ sight-singing I would recommend it. Do-me-sol-me-do-ti-do becomes 1-3-5-3-1-raise-1. All you need on accidentals is the use of raise (sharp) or low (flat). It works on any scale degree instead of memorizing random syllables! And I feel like it gives you a better sense of what you're seeing/singing. Just my opinion in case you're attempting to learn.
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MIKE C.
44 posts
Nov 18, 2010
10:22 AM
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The only question that would be stupid would be be the one someone was afraid to ask. ( I hope that makes sense, what I mean is that no question is stupid, that is the way to learn.)
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tookatooka
1865 posts
Nov 18, 2010
10:33 AM
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Jeez! I thought the answer was going to be simple.
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Swezey8
36 posts
Nov 18, 2010
10:37 AM
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Sorry tooka...
My simple answer: Yes.
:)
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MrVerylongusername
1364 posts
Nov 18, 2010
10:46 AM
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@Steve j.
The Hering 1923 is JI
AFAIK the Soul's Voice is not - as it is made by Seydel I would expect it to have a compromise tuning.
The only other stock JI harp I know of is the Suzuki Fabulous - which price-wise is in the same league as a B-radical or a custom.
Seydel offers JI as an option, but it adds quite a hefty mark-up.
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nacoran
3261 posts
Nov 18, 2010
11:03 AM
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I used to sing shape note music. Not only are there different syllables for different notes, but there are different shapes for notes on the staff. (Shape note is a variety of movable Do singing.) In movable do the notes (barring accidentals) are always the same for a major scale, and just a couple changes for a minor scale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge
(Scan down a bit, the chart you are looking for is pretty far down the page.)
Steve, BBQ would know which harps have what tunings. I thought I had it bookmarked but I've got to get out the door. If he doesn't answer I'll take a look for it.
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Nate
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saregapadanisa
264 posts
Nov 18, 2010
11:28 AM
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Answer : no
And, as far as I know, there is nowhere in the world a notated musical system that has specific names for "accidental" notes.
To get the spelling right, these names come from a poem by an italian monk (and music teacher), Guido d'Arrezio, 11th century :
Ut queant laxis
Resonare fibris
Mira gestorum
Famuli tuorum
Solve polluti
Labii reatum
Sancte Iohannes
That is Ut, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si.
Ut was later dropped in favor of Do, because it's an embarassing syllab to sing, but is still use in some cases in Europe, e.g. Key of Ut (C-clef) for staff notation.
And, of course, the poem is in latin. I won't translate it word for word here, but the idea is "practise your harp to play the blues". Approximately.
Apart from the DoReMi and the ABC system, the Chinese also use a notation by number (C=1, D=2...) for western music.
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Blueharper
152 posts
Nov 18, 2010
11:38 AM
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I think I remember BBQ Bob saying that the Bends "JUKE" is tuned to JI.
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MrVerylongusername
1369 posts
Nov 19, 2010
6:54 AM
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@Blueharper
Yes you're right - I forgot about the new guys! Seems Bends have quite a few JI harps.
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steve j.
68 posts
Nov 19, 2010
7:26 AM
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I copyed this from Rockin Rons
"The rich, mellow tone of the Soul's Voice is partly due to the fact that it's Just Tuned like the legendary, old Marone Bands"
So for anybody , like me who was wondering,,, after checking a bunch of sites out
It LOOKS like Souls Voice , 1923 , and Bends are JI tunes , Bends has different tunings ,, but the SV & 1923 are JI tuned.
A fav. player of mine plays SV and he likes JI , he plays a style that sounds best on a harp tuned that way.
So for what is worth there it is , If theres more , let me know
Steve
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Various Musical ramblings
http://www.youtube.com/user/sjeter61?feature=mhum
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MrVerylongusername
1370 posts
Nov 19, 2010
9:53 AM
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@Steve
I don't want to take this thread too far off topic so I will begin a new one about the Soul's Voice.
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nacoran
3264 posts
Nov 19, 2010
10:32 AM
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Movable do solfège
Movable do is frequently employed in Australia, China (with 7th being si), Ireland, the United Kingdom, the United States, Hong Kong and English-speaking Canada (although many American conservatories use French-style fixed do). Originally it was used throughout continental Europe as well, but in the mid-nineteenth century was phased out by fixed do in Romance countries.[citation needed] In Germany Agnes Hundoegger [2] reintroduced it using the Curwen system which she got to know when visiting his courses. In the movable do system, each solfège syllable corresponds not to a pitch, but to a scale degree: The first degree of a major scale is always sung as 'do', the second as 're', etc. (For minor keys, see below.) In movable do, a given tune is therefore always sol-faed on the same syllables, no matter what key it is in.
The solfège syllables used for movable do differ slightly from those used for fixed do, because the English variant of the basic syllables ('ti' instead of 'si') is usually used, and chromatically altered syllables are usually included as well.
Major scale degree Mova. do solfège syllable # of half steps from Do Trad. Pron. Sato Method[24] Sato Pron.
Lowered 1 (-)1, 11 De /d??/
1 Do 0 /do?/ Do /d??/
Raised 1 Di 1 /di?/ Di /di?/
Lowered 2 Ra 1 /r??/ Ra /r??/
2 Re 2 /re?/ Re /r??/
Raised 2 Ri 3 /ri?/ Ri /ri?/
Lowered 3 Me (or Ma) 3 /me?/ (/m??/) Me /m??/
3 Mi 4 /mi?/ Mi /mi?/
Raised 3 5 Ma /m??/
Lowered 4 4 Fe /f??/
4 Fa 5 /f??/ Fa /f??/
Raised 4 Fi 6 /fi?/ Fi /fi?/
Lowered 5 Se 6 /se?/ Se /s??/
5 Sol 7 /so?/ So /s??/
Raised 5 Si 8 /si?/ Si /si?/
Lowered 6 Le (or Lo) 8 /le?/ (/lo?/) Le /l??/
6 La 9 /l??/ La /l??/
Raised 6 Li 10 /li?/ Li /li?/
Lowered 7 Te (or Ta) 10 /te?/ (/t??/) Te /t??/
7 Ti 11 /ti?/ Ti /ti?/
Raised 7 12 To /t??/
If, at a certain point, the key of a piece modulates, then it is necessary to change the solfège syllables at that point. For example, if a piece begins in C major, then C is initially sung on "do", D on "re", etc.. If, however, the piece then modulates to G, then G is sung on “Do”, A on “re”, etc., and C is then sung on “fa".
Passages in a minor key may be sol-faed in one of two ways in movable do: either starting on do (using "me", "le", and "te" for the lowered third, sixth, and seventh degrees which is referred to as "Do-based minor"), and "la" and "ti" for the raised sixth and seventh degrees), or starting on la (using "fi" and "si" for the raised sixth and seventh degrees). The latter (referred to as "la-based minor) is sometimes preferred in choral singing, especially with children.
Natural minor scale degree Movable do solfège syllable (La-based minor) Movable do solfège syllable (Do-based minor)
1 La Do
Raised 1 Li Di
Lowered 2 Te (or Ta) Ra
2 Ti Re
3 Do Me (or Ma)
Raised 3 Di Mi
4 Re Fa
Raised 4 Ri Fi
Lowered 5 Me (or Ma) Se
5 Mi Sol
6 Fa Le (or Lo)
Raised 6 Fi La
7 Sol Te (or Ta)
Raised 7 Si Ti
One particularly important variant of movable do, but differing in some respects from the system here described, was invented in the nineteenth century by John Curwen, and is known as tonic sol-fa.
In Italy, in 1972, Roberto Goitre wrote the famous method "Cantar leggendo", which has come to be used for choruses and for music for young children.
The pedagogical advantage of the movable-Do system is its ability to assist in the theoretical understanding of music; because a tonic is established and then sung in comparison to, the student infers melodic and chordal implications through his or her singing. Thus, while fixed-Do is more applicable to instrumentalists, movable-Do is more applicable to theorists and, arguably, composers.
Cut and paste makes a mess of the chart. :( It's from the Wikipedia page.
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Nate
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