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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
?? Positions on Minors ??
?? Positions on Minors ??
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gene
610 posts
Jan 01, 2011
2:47 PM
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This is not an important question to me...I know that it IS, but I can't figure out WHY it is, and it drives me nuts:
Playing 3rd position on a song in Cm is done on a Bb harp. If I didn't know this, I'd choose a Db harp. My thinking would be that the relative major of Cm is Eb, so I look at the circle of fifths and choose the harp that's 2 steps counter-clockwise. But that ain't right.
To choose the right harp for Cm in 3rd, you don't tell yourself "Cm"; you tell yourself "C" and then go 2 steps counter-clockwise to the Bb.
This doesn't make sense to me. The song is in Cm...not in C, so how do we ignore the fact of the minor and end up with the right harp?! This makes a C harp 1st position for Cm even though a Cm key contains 3 flats, as does the relative major (Eb).
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 5:56 PM
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nacoran
3526 posts
Jan 01, 2011
3:41 PM
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edit: Ok, dyslexic moment.
Eb's relative minor is c, so you'd start on the C as your tonic, the 6 blow.
3rd position is a minor scale (unless you are doing bends and whatnot to make it otherwise.)
A Better Explanation
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Nate
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Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 5:58 PM
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hvyj
968 posts
Jan 01, 2011
4:19 PM
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@Gene: You've got the wrong keys associated with the positions you are talking about. Eb harp is used to play in second position for Bb. You use a Db harp to play Eb Dorian minor in third position
C Dorian minor=Bb harp third position. This works because Dorian mode is built from the second degree of the major scale and C is the second degree of the Bb major scale.
C natural minor=Eb harp in fourth position. This works because Eb is the relative major of C minor--both scales have the same notes but start on a different note. Btw, this puts you in Aeolean mode.
C natural minor=Ab harp in fifth position. Playing in second position, one would use an Ab harp for Eb major. Since Eb major is is relative major for C minor you have the notes available to play in C minor on an Ab harp. It is second position relative minor if that makes sense.
You can use a C harp to play in A natural minor (fourth position), E natural minor (fifth position) and D dorian minor (third position). Actually, you can also get harmonic minor using fourth position using the right bends to play major 7th and avoiding flat 7th. Harmonic minor=flat 3d, flat 6th, major 7th. Natural minor=flat 3d, flat 6th, flat 7th. Dorian minor=flat 3d, MAJOR 6th, flat 7th.
One has to be careful about bending notes when playing in minor keys. If you start bending all over the place you can take yourself out of minor tonality and it can sound really bad.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 9:46 PM
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7LimitJI
260 posts
Jan 01, 2011
4:19 PM
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"Playing 3rd position on a song in Eb is done on a Bb harp. If I didn't know this, I'd choose a Db harp"
Song key Eb. Choose Db harp to play in third.
Way I remember which harp for third pos is,
Key of song ,then go 2 half steps back eg
Song in D. Count back 2 One Db, two C. Therefore play a C harp.
Song in Eb. One D, Two Db. Therefore play a Db/C# harp.
I don't know the theory behind this. I just accept that it is !
You can play third pos over major or minor key.
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Jim Rumbaugh
355 posts
Jan 01, 2011
5:31 PM
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gene said,
"Playing 3rd position on a song in Eb is done on a Bb harp. "
At first I found this confusing (or wrong), but I figured out his logic. When he said,"song in Eb" he was refering to C minor, and Bd harp is the the third position harp to use for C minor.
For you "theory guys", please remember that Bd is the 12th position harp for Ed major. This echos the wonderful relationship between 12th position and 3rd position. They are actually the same (kinda) but one is thought of as the choice for minor scales and the orher the choice for major scales. (I credit Hvyj with this insight)
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 5:33 PM
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gene
611 posts
Jan 01, 2011
5:56 PM
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Nacoran:
The chords inside the circle are all minor, so the relative minor of Eb is Cm; not C.
hvyj:
Your first sentence made me think you were misunderstanding my question, but I reread my question and found I wrote it wrong. I said, "Playing 3rd position on a song in Eb is done on a Bb harp." I meant Cm instead of Eb. Playing in 3rd for a song in Eb would indeed be played on a Db harp.
But what about playing 3rd for a song in Cm? That is played on a Bb. This is what's driving me nuts trying to figure out WHY. Your second sentence varifies my "Bb for third in Cm" thing, but I still can't figure out why I wouldn't use a Db harp for 3rd position in Cm.
7LimitJI:
"I don't know the theory behind this. I just accept that it is !"
We're on the same page, there!! :)
Jim:
I was typing this post as you were typing yours. You posted first. You are right about me referring to Cm.
Now, I'm going to go back and correct my OP.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 6:00 PM
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nacoran
3528 posts
Jan 01, 2011
6:13 PM
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I'm having dyslexic moment. I went the wrong way. Yeah, what Jim said.
7LimitJi, the way to think about the theory, (which isn't as fast as having it memorized but will let you sit down and figure it out) is to write out all the notes several times in order, or think of a piano.
C Db D Eb E F G Ab A Bb B C Db Eb E F G Ab A Bb B C
Each note is a half-step above the one before it. C is the only major key without flats or sharps, so it goes C D E F G A B C. The same pattern of steps and half steps is used for every major key, they just start on different notes.
The relative minor uses the same notes as the major key, only it starts on a different note, so the pattern, if you are playing scales, sounds different, but if you came in in the middle and they kept playing the scale higher and higher you wouldn't know which one it was. C Majors relative minor is A. If someone had a gun to my head, I could figure out every key signature that way (or through a silly acronym), and if they told me what position a mode was related to I could write them out too.
The really confusing part comes when you start getting into Major and minor scales, plural. There slight variates- different modes. Each position is (when played naturally, without bends or whatever) associated with different mode. That's when my brain starts to hurt. Well, actually, before that, but that's as far as I can get.
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Nate
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hvyj
969 posts
Jan 01, 2011
6:30 PM
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@gene: Third position does not put you in a NATURAL minor. A natural minor scale has a flat 3d, flat 6th and flat 7th.
Third position gives you a Dorian minor. It puts you in Dorian mode which is a minor scale that has a flat 3d, MAJOR 6th, and flat 7th. Dorian mode is produced by playing a diatonic scale pattern but starting on the second degree of the major scale, which on a Bb harp is C (draw 4). So, playing a Bb harp using draw 4 for root gives you a Dorian minor scale that starts on C.
Now, you CAN play C natural minor on a Db harp using draw 3 for root. This puts you in SIXTH position (which corresponds to Locrian mode). It's not widely used, but it does work reasonably well. Nothing wrong with using 6th position to play C minor. It depends on what you are comfortable with.
Btw, with appropriate bends, you can also play C Dorian minor using 6th position. You can't get a major 5th in the middle register, though--maybe you can if you OB. I'm not sure since I don't OB myself.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 9:47 PM
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gene
612 posts
Jan 01, 2011
6:31 PM
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Oops. You did it again, Nacoran. The relative MINOR of C major is Am. :)
hvyj:
Now I know I'm right in being confused! You said Dd harp would be 6th position for a son in Cm. This further confirms what I thought (Bb harp=3rd pos in Cm).
OK, now I'm going to say something that I know is wrong, and would like for somebody to tell me Why it's wrong. Here goes:
A song is in C, and you want to play 3rd position. To do so, go two more steps counter-clockwise. You've landed on Bb. That's the harp you'll use.
(So far, so good, but here comes the wrong part.)
A song is in Cm, and you want to play 3rd position. To do so, go two more steps counter-clockwise. You've landed on Bbm. Well, all I have is major harps, so I'll use the relative major (of Bbm) harp. That's a Db harp.
Now, Why is that wrong?! Why am I supposed to drop "minor" when I'm looking for the right harp? It seems like I have to go about it wrong to get the right harp. Like this:
"The song is in Cm. I want to play 3rd. So I'll look at the C on the circle of 5ths--NOT THE CM. Then I count back two spaces to the Bb.----That's right, but how can it be? I want to play 3rd in Cm--not C.
OH CRAP!! The obvious dawned on me: I'd play the same harp for 3rd position in C as I would in Cm! HOW CAN THIS BE???!!! THEY'RE DIFFERENT SCALES!!! AAARRRRrrrrrrrrghhh.........! ..... Eh...That's alright, I guess.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 7:08 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
356 posts
Jan 01, 2011
7:03 PM
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Gene (I think we cross posted)
I think some of your confusion comes from OVERTHINKING.
You state you know that Cminor ir the relative minor to Eflat major. Now I assume....(ahem)... you have learned to find the relative minor by going down 3 half steps from the major.
Finding the minor harp to use is a similar trick. Go down 2 half steps from the MINOR key you want to play. I tell beginers to start on the 4 draw and work their way up (learn the bottom 3 holes later). On a C harp, the 4draw is a D. This will give you a beginner's Dminor scale(avoid the 7 draw).
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 7:06 PM
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gene
613 posts
Jan 01, 2011
7:07 PM
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What I'm asking is really unimportant, as I stated in my OP. I know HOW (only by looking at the Co5), I just don't know WHY. Yes, I'm overthinking for sure. It's really just a matter of curiosity. I get hung up on stuff like that sometimes. I get the feeling that some day it could be beneficial to know why...If I ever try to compose or sumthin'.
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 7:14 PM
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hvyj
971 posts
Jan 01, 2011
7:35 PM
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@gene: i don't use minor tuned harps and i don't use the circle of fifths to figure out positions. i just remember where root (do) is in each position.
1st position=4 blow
2d position=2 draw/3 blow
3d position=4 draw
4th position=6 draw
5th position=2 blow
6th position=3 draw
12th position=5 draw
So, say i want to play G minor in 5th position. I'll pull out an Eb harp because that gives me G on the 2 hole blow. If i want to play G minor in 4th position, I'll use a Bb harp since that gives me G on the 6 hole draw. Etc.
I know what holes are what degree of the scale in which position so i am able to quickly compute what holes are what note on a particular key of harp. This isn't the only way to do it and may not be the best way, but it's what I'm comfortable with and it works.
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Michael Rubin
44 posts
Jan 01, 2011
8:13 PM
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Here goes why:
Positions relate to the Circle of Fifths. Whatever the name of the harmonica being played is the starting point of the Circle of Fifths. The C harmonica starts at the key of C in the circle. The next key in the Circle is found by finding the fifth note in the C major scale. What is the fifth note in the C major scale? C D E F G A B C is the scale, G is the fifth note. The next key in the Circle of Fifths as it relates to the C harp is therefore G. The Circle's order is therefore C G D A E B F# C# Ab Eb Bb F C with each consecutive key's root note sharing the name with the fifth note of the major scale of the previous key.
If you have a C harmonica, C is first position, G is second position. If you have a Bb harp, Bb is first position, F is second position and C is third position. That means that ANY type of scale beginning with the note C when played on a Bb harmonica is third position.
It is possible with bends and overblows to play any note within the range of 1 blow to 10 overdraw. Therefore it is possible to play any type of C scale on a Bb harmonica. Each one of these scales would be in third position whether they be major, minor or otherwise.
There are many types of minor scales. The most popular seems to be the relative minor scale, AKA the natural minor scale AKA the Aeolian Mode. The C relative minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C. If you played these notes but started and finished on Eb, you would get the notes Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb. This is the Eb major scale. That is why it is called the relative minor scale, because it is related to a major scale. It shares the same notes.
An Eb harmonica can produce all the notes in an Eb major scale with only 3 bends. 2 double is Ab, 3 double is C and ten single is D. If you do not bend, every note is a member of the Eb major scale as well as the C relative minor scale. Therefore it is very easy to play the C relative minor scale on an Eb harp.
However if Eb is the starting point in the Circle of Fifths, Eb is first position. Bb is second position. F is third position and C is fourth position.
Both third position and fourth position lay out well for minor scales. Third position lays out best for the Dorian Mode, which is a minor scale. Fourth position lays out best for the Relative Minor Scale.
However, once all bends and overblows are mastered, any scale can be played in any position. Even C major can be played on either a Bb or an Eb harp. Even before all the bends and overblows are mastered, any scale can be evoked by choosing only notes from that scale.
Hope that helps.
Michael Rubin
Michaelrubinharmonica.com
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Michael Rubin
45 posts
Jan 01, 2011
8:36 PM
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I just read, or tried to read, everything again. I think I understand some of the confusion.
The picture of the circle of fifths in nacoran's post has an outer circle for majors and an inner circle for minors. The inner circle is the outer circle's relative minors, not minors in general. There are many types of minor scales and the relative minor is only one of them.
When dealing with harmonica positions, only the outer circle matters. It does not matter if a scale is major or minor, the outer circle is talking about the position's root notes, which are the same whether major or minor.
Michael Rubin
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nacoran
3534 posts
Jan 01, 2011
9:04 PM
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Gene, isn't that what I said? (I mean the second time? Except maybe not noting it correctly...) Just for clarity, what is the agreed on format for noting major and minor? I've seen people capitalizing major and not minor, people saying Am for a minor (which confuses me when people start talking about chords and a couple other variations.) I did miss a apostrophe on Major's.
Michael Rubin, you said that much more clearly than I did! The only part that is still confusing me is this:
"An Eb harmonica can produce all the notes in an Eb major scale with only 3 bends. 2 double is Ab, 3 double is C and ten single is D. If you do not bend, every note is a member of the Eb major scale as well as the C relative minor scale. Therefore it is very easy to play the C relative minor scale on an Eb harp."
An Eb harmonica can produces all the notes in a major scale without any bends, although not over it's whole range. It gets the middle octave. And after that I really got confused, but that may be I'm just tired. I picked it right up after that paragraph though.
And of course there are some scales, like the blues scale, that have notes flatted just because!
And then back to the Circle of Fifths! It's also useful in composing. After all, it wasn't designed to figure out harp positions! But that's a topic for another night.
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gene
614 posts
Jan 01, 2011
9:20 PM
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"When dealing with harmonica positions, only the outer circle matters. It does not matter if a scale is major or minor, the outer circle is talking about the position's root notes, which are the same whether major or minor."
Now, THAT really does clear thing up for me! Thanks!
It does open a new question for me, though. (I'm in too much a lazy mood to investigate this right now):
Will the various relative minors around the circle be different types of minors?
Also about the Dorian scale: I've read that it is commonly called a minor because it sounds like one, but it is not acually a true minor for some reasaon er uther. I couldn't find where I actually read that, but I found this, which strongly implies such.
From the link:
"The dorian mode is built on the second step of the major scale, using the same notes. For example, the D dorian scale is built from the notes of the C major scale, starting on D, and consists of "D, E, F, G, A, B, C". The dorian mode is a lot like minor scale, but the sixth step is raised a half step. That is, the D minor scale would have a Bb while the dorian has a B. Because it is so similar to the minor scale, it is natural to play this scale over a minor seventh chord. In fact, it is used more often than the minor scale itself. If you go to a piano and play a Dm7 chord ("D F A C") in your left hand, and play notes from the D dorian and D minor scales in your right, you will probably find that the dorian mode sounds better, because the B is less dissonant against the Dm7 than the Bb is. If you use the dorian mode over a minor seventh chord, there are no notes to avoid.
Like the major seventh chord, you can add more thirds to the minor seventh chord to obtain Dm9, Dm11, and Dm13. These chords still imply the same dorian mode. If you use the natural minor scale, the thirteen chord contains the note Bb, which is somewhat dissonant in this context. This chord is seldom used, but when it is called for, it is often notated Dm7b6, and is one of the few exceptions to the rule that most chords are written in terms of odd numbered extensions above the seventh. This rule comes from the fact that chords are traditionally built by stacking thirds. The notation Dm6 is sometimes as a synonym for Dm13 when the B natural is explicitly meant."
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gene
615 posts
Jan 01, 2011
9:25 PM
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"Just for clarity, what is the agreed on format for noting major and minor? I've seen people capitalizing major and not minor, people saying Am for a minor..."
I dunno... I thought "major" is assumed unless there is an "m" to designate "minor." I'll see if I can find something about it...
...Well, I looked around some. I didn't find anything written in legalese, but several places indicated that minors are designated with "m" and "M" is sometimes used to designate major.
Now, about those apostrophies.... :D
Last Edited by on Jan 01, 2011 9:37 PM
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hvyj
973 posts
Jan 01, 2011
9:40 PM
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The "relative minors" as set forth on the inner circle of the Circle of Fifths diagram are always natural minors (Aeolean mode) with flat 3d, flat 6th, flat 7th.
If you are playing Dorian mode (third position) on a natural minor tune, you MUST be careful avoid the major 6th (draw 7 and draw 3 unbent) or it will sound REALLY BAD.
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gene
616 posts
Jan 01, 2011
9:55 PM
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Thanks!
OK, so much for this intellectual BS...Now back to hands-on fun.
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nacoran
3536 posts
Jan 01, 2011
10:06 PM
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Gene, Oops, yeah, the inside is the relative minor. I should have said that. That's why I like that particular C05 (Circle of Fifths, brand new acronym). It also shows, if you sight read, how many and which
flats or sharps are in each key. You can see that it has more than one key signature for 3 keys, because some notes have more than one name and their scales can be made with flats or sharps. C# and Db, for instance, are exactly the same thing.
As to, "Will the various relative minors around the circle be different types of minors?" Yes. At least now they are. They weren't always. It's the same pattern of half and whole steps, but historically, there was a 'but'.
Clear your mind. This is, basically a whole different topic, but it's kind of interesting.
Take two notes, one octave apart, and look at how many hertz they are. The lower note will be half as many hertz as the higher note.
It doesn't matter if it's A3 and A4 or A4 and A5, or even C3 and C4. It's a complicated issue with how waves interfere with each other. I couldn't explain the physics to you, but it is that way. We split that octave up into 12 notes, including the top and bottom.
Some combinations create interference patterns that sound good. Some don't. If you listen to a tremolo harp you can hear how the two notes, tuned just a little different from each other, make a pulsing sound. That's because of wave interference. When the sound waves peaks are the same, the sound gets louder. When they are off peak, they partially cancel each other out. (That's how those expensive Bose headphones work!)
The problem is that the math gets a little wonky. If you make these two notes sound good together, this other one one sound so good; fix that one and that other one doesn't sound so good. Since it's a matter of trade-offs, people don't always agree on the best way to solve it. That's where we get Equal Tuning (which makes the individual notes sound good when played in succession) and Just Tuning (which makes the chords sound good but sounds slightly out of tune when just playing the melody) and Compromise Tunings, which split the difference.
And that's just the harmonica! Historically people have argued about this and come up with all sorts of different schemes. Some systems, for instance Indian and Chinese music, use more or less notes (fewer?).
Modern tunings basically use the octaves as the anchors in this system, and then they use the same ratio on every octave, but that hasn't always been the case. Pianos, one of the only other instrument that plays chords by itself, had all sorts of different tunings to make their chords sound better, including some that made different keys have different patterns, even if the notes seem to indicate they should be basically the same.
Slate had a good article on it, including some sound samples.
Slate Article on Temperaments
:)
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Nate
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hvyj
974 posts
Jan 01, 2011
10:10 PM
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You know, I consider the ability to select the right harp/position for playing particular minor key material to be a very practical "hands-on" skill. But i do quite a bit of playing in minor keys. For me, it's not just theoretical BS--it's something i use all the time when I perform.
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gene
617 posts
Jan 02, 2011
1:23 AM
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Yeah, the "what-to-do and how" are practical, for sure, but the "why" is mostly just interesting, I think...at least in this topic.
Last Edited by on Jan 02, 2011 1:24 AM
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Michael Rubin
46 posts
Jan 02, 2011
7:15 AM
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Nacoran,
I was talking about playing the Eb major scale in all three octaves. You are correct, if you only want to play the entire major scale in one octave, you can in the middle octave.
Michael Rubin
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nacoran
3541 posts
Jan 02, 2011
10:05 AM
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Michael, what was throwing me off was how you were indicating the bends, "2 double is Ab". I wasn't sure what you meant by '2 double is'. I wasn't picking up that double was referring to a double bend. Usually I see that described as a whole step bend. Once I figured that out it made sense! Good job. :)
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Nate
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Miles Dewar
583 posts
Jan 02, 2011
9:21 PM
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@Micheal Rubin,
That was by far THE best explanation of the circle of fifths and figuring out positions. Thank you.
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