The fender bassman is known to be a monster harp amp. The 59'reissue sound alot more brither than the vintage one.. Why, is it because of the speakers and how could we made a warmer 59'reissue bassman?
Personally, I like the original reissue with the Eminence speakers. They sound great!
If you're referring to the Bassman LTD, I think it's the Jensen reissue speakers. They are pretty bright. I know a couple of people that have replaced the speakers with original Jensen P10R's and the amps sound more like their vintage brethren.
There are other modifications that can make the amp sound warmer sounding. If you're lucky and if they aren't busy sucking down pasta, 5F6H and a couple of others may chime in.
Played through a Stock Bassman RI with an analogue Delay and a good mic.
Maybe the pre amp tubes were swaped.
Both Players are great and sound different through the same gear.
West Weston even sounds pretty good through the vocal mic and PA.
I have a Bassman RI with eminence speakers and a Modified one with Webers on the bottom and Jensons on the top. I can get them both sounding the same with a few valve swaps etc but one was warmer than the other.
The point is the Bassman is a great Amp for guitar and can be a great Amp for Harp its down to how you want it to sound with a bit of knowlegde and advice it can be all you need.
Two fabulous players fabulously filmed. As ever, thank you for doing what you do with your YouTube channel. Great entertainment, a great resource, much appreciated in this corner of West London!
@Everyone:
AFAIK, West Weston plays his own custom MBs and Victor Puertas plays MB Deluxes (correct me if I'm wrong here!). I suspect the choice of harp has a surprising impact on tone, too...
As Joe L says, an RI with Eminence 102 speakers can be a great sounding amp, in fact the likelyhood is that it will sound less bright than some originals!
I don't like the Jensen RIs in tweed bassmans, the frequency response is too scooped between 100-400Hz, making them thinner sounding than the Emi 102.
Oxharp - West Weston's amp is a "stock" 59 circuit (or at least one of the stock circuits - there are about a dozen variations - which is why I always wince at the phrase "stock", few would know it if they saw it & most don't count the changes that they make as "mods") but the amp is hand-wired (West's amp is as close to the 59 RI schem as any hand wired amp that I have seen, most hand wired bassmans are not) as he was getting intermittent problems with the old PCB. As with any amp that a player has owned for 15yrs it has West's choice of tubes & bias, rather than what came from the factory (in terms of brands that is, they are all of original broad type - AY/AX/AX, apart from the 5U4G which is just a matter of taste & again is subbed with the GZ34 when required, West will tailor whatever he feels is necessary at a given gig/room).
West Weston has a truly unique tone (& a fluency that few players ever achieve), no amp (even his) will give any other player "West Weston tone" on a plate.
Every harp player of note, that I personally know, owns at least one bassman (one guy has 3)...it's not a coincidence, they are great amps for harp. There are other great amps for harp, but nothing that can stomp on a good bassman.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 2:02 AM
... and be sure check out West's new tracks at his Myspace - "One More Chance/Same Thing/Wrigglin'" recorded with Tomi Leino. A full album from that session to follow shortly.
My opinion. Why buy a re-issue when you can buy a point to point 4X10 harp specific amp for about the same price from Sonny Jr., Harpgear and others. There is a Super Sonny on ebay now for 1400.00, and the guy can't sell it! What's wrong with this picture? A lotof folks will buy the RI for 1000.00 to 1200.00 and then replace the speakers, replace tubes, mess with all sorts of mods and still have half the amp this Sonny Jr. is. Like I said, my opinion, just buy the right tool for the job.
No one is saying you can't, or don't, but round here 2nd hand bassmans go for less than half what a Sonny Jr/Harpgear 4x10 retail for (£500-£700). A friend of mine (in fact, more than one) has a RI, rewired point to point, good speakers, good tubes...sounds as good as ANY bassman you will hear, cost around £1100 (2/3 the price of a Sonny Jr inc. shipping & duty - we don't all live in the US & it's much worse doing business the other way, a £2500 GB made amp ends up around $4000+ plus shipping to US!). This can be done in stages as time & funds allow. Of course there is a risk of a few wrong turns along the way (if a mod doesn't do what you want, discus it with the guy who did it, or just get it taken off), so it is understandable that guys may want to buy something that has had the R&D already put in.
"A lotof folks will buy the RI for 1000.00 to 1200.00 and then replace the speakers, replace tubes, mess with all sorts of mods and still have half the amp this Sonny Jr." Sonny Jr, Brian Purdy, Scooter, Dale Lazlie all make great amps...but none are "the same" as a 59RI, nor available at the same price as good used models. A good amp is one you like the sound of, but I'm not sure how a 59RI is "half the amp" a Sonny Jr is, in practical terms (or any other bassman style amp). The Sonny Jr is ready to go out of the box, with servicing will last a lifetime, has Sonny's optimised speakers, caps & tubes & set up options, but they make roughly the same output (if not the same sound). The options are out there, whatever you choose is up to you & how much you want to spend in one go.
Just like harps, do you buy a stock harp & spend time setting it up, or do you spend the money on having a pro set it up for you? You do what you are prepared to do, against cost. Some guys just like figuring things out for themselves.
"There is a Super Sonny on ebay now for 1400.00, and the guy can't sell it! What's wrong with this picture?" - Perhaps the guys who are in the market for a Sonny Jr, with $1400 on the table, are happy to spend another $395 (28%) on new Avenger? That $1400 doesn't really represent a decent saving on a used amp, considering the Super Sonny's were a little less new than the Avenger. Don't discount the effect of the recession either, especially in January when the Xmas credit card bills roll in.
rbeetsme.. there is a difference between 1400 and 800$.. If I can get a use bassman for that price (and I saw one) I just want to be sure that it as a good tone without mods. People are saying that it sounds gret with the eminence speakers.. this is what I want to know. And wich tube should I change.. I just can pay 1400$ for an amp xD.. I am 16 and I have to find a job xD!!
16! Are you playing out? If you aren't playing out much or not in big rooms, I would suggest calling Greg Heumann at www.blowsmeaway.com and look into a "Greg Special" modified Kalamazoo II. All the tone you need for at home or small rooms and can easily be mic'd for bigger spaces.
@ bazzzou: "People are saying that it sounds gret with the eminence speakers.. this is what I want to know. And wich tube should I change.."
The blue Eminence 102 that came in early RIs are not being made at the moment, Angela Instruments has some in from time to time, they occasionally appear NOS/used. The black Eminence 102 are a little darker sounding compared to the blue, but still good speakers. There are other speakers that people find good for harp....
A RI might come with a solid state rectifier. This is a small black plastic plug, with no glass tube at the far left of the amp looking at the back, next to the 2 5881/6L6 power tubes. In a stock amp, this might be on the harsh side, so experiment with replacing it with 5AR4/GZ34, or 5U4G rectifiers. LTD's come with a GZ34/5AR4, so you might like to try the 5U4G in one of these. People might mention "biasing", having this checked by a tech is a good idea (especially if the amp eats fuses), but if the amp runs well with a SS/GZ34 rectifier, subbing a 5U4 will drop bias current slightly, which is safer as long as you don't notice any unpleasant side effects (long notes sounding "draggy" & perhaps fading out before they should)?
The other prime candidate for a tube sub is V1, right at the other end of the amp, farthest right (under the twist off metal shield). Final choice will be reflected by mic, but 9 times out of 10 a 12AY7 works well here (no need to break the bank, an EH 12AY7/6072A is fine)...you might also try 12AX7, 5751, 12AU7. Sometimes a 12AT7 or 12AY7 can sound good in V2 (middle preamp tube). Buy one of each & see what you like by trial & error.
I don't recommend different tubes in V3 (preamp next to the power tubes AKA "phase inverter"), maybe a 5751 or 12AT7, but not 12AY7 or 12AU7 as the 1W flame proof resistors in an RI are not really sturdy enough for the higher current these tubes draw.
With a typical mic, a 5U4 & a 12AY7 your amp might hit the feedback ceiling between "3.5" & "4" on the volume. This is normal.
5F6H you said that the 1W resistors are not sturdy enough for the higher current draw of a 12AY7 or a 12AU7. I'm running a 12AU7 in the pre-amp position right now.... so far no problems?? but I do change my tube around abit some times. is there a mod to up the sturdiness of the pcb in the RI's. mine is an LTD version in which I've changed the two bottom speakers to the eminence 102 that I found on line. the sound is great but I don't want to hurt it either.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 7:54 AM
Stones, I've never seen the carbon film plate resistors at V1 fail, irrespective of what tube was used in there. Gerald Weber mentioned RIs with 1/4W plate resistors here, but schems show 1/2W and mostly they look to be 1/2W size. So I wouldn't lose sleep over V1 (farthest R).
V2, middle preamp tube - I have seen the 1/2W 100K plate resistor fail here a couple of times, but this was even with 12AX7 installed, so tubes with a high current draw might be pushing your luck, for me, I'd use what sounded best & just fix anything that goes astray. This resistor is very accessible from the front of the board (R14) & can easily be changed for a 1W (or better if it will fit, can go accross the V2 socket pins from 6 to 1 if the old R14 is removed from the board, needs a plain wire jumper from pin 1 to pin 7) 100K.
V3 - Phase inverter, next to power tubes. R28 & R29 are the 1W flameproof plate resistors. This tube is the weaker link because it is fed by higher voltages, therefore current drawn accross the resistors is greater. 12AY & 12AU7 can draw 3 to 5 times the current of a 12AX7. These resistors fail most often, even with 12AX7 installed. Should be replaced with 2W carbon film.
R32 & R33 - screen grid resistors. These are the same 1W flameproof type as R28 & R29 and do fail on occasion. Sometimes because they have heated, expanded & cooled a lot, so the solder at the back of the board loses integrity and even if the resistors are replaced & look OK from the front of the board, they can connect intermittently. If this happens on your amp (will appear to lose power dramatically for no apparent reason), mount 470ohm 4-5W resistors from pin 6 to pin 4 of each power tube. Pin 6s of each tube connect to each other and are fed by a wire connecting to CP25, or the hot side of R38. Remove the old wires from pin 4 on each tube.
But, don't have nightmares! If it doesn't sound like you have a problem, then you don't. "Most often" in this instance means that I can still count the number of failures that I have seen on one hand, they are generally VERY reliable. V3 is the most prone to failure so I just wouldn't tempt fate with a 12AY/12AU.
The Jensen P10R reissues ar COSMETICALLY the same, but totally different sounding than a real one. The original reeissues used alnico magnet speakers made by Eminence and those were definitely better speakers.
I still own and use a REAL '59 Bassman that I bought back in 1983, so I can clearly tell the differences in a heartbeat.
The LTD has the cabinet more like the original, using finger jointed Ponderosa Pine like the original and they lacquered the tweed, wheras the first reissues uses heavy plywood and the tweed isn't lacquered at all. The pine cabinet is more resonant like the original is.
The tube setup for the real deal is: 12AY7-12AX7-12AX7-5881-5881-GZ34/5AR4
I do NOT do tube swaps and all the tubes in mine are all NOS tubes. Personally, the whole tube swap thing to get more dirt to me is the lack of a player not developing three important playing parameters FIRST, and that's good acoustic tone, breath control, and the ability to play resonantly and that tube swap thing is like plastic surgery trying to fake your way thru everything.
If you need to know all the differences between the reissues and the real deal, there's an excellent chapter in Gerald Weber's book, "A Desktop Referecne of Hip Vintage Guitar Amps," which is available thru Amazon.com or thru his website. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks I've had a 12AT7 in the V3 position before and the sound seemed alittle bit brighter... although not bad. the changing of the two bottom speakers to the Eminence really did not change the sound as much as I thought it would, I got more responce when I temporarly blocked off the back of the cabinet it got much more of a gritty sound to it. The only real reason that I changed the tubes was so that I could play in front of the thing with out the feed back problem. with my current arrangement of tubes that are in there now I can set my volume to 4-6 on the normal side, and run my bright channel on 6 to set it into distortion when I lean in it alittle bit. the break up is nice and smooth, the sound is that real nice creammy sound that the bassmans are famous for. the next stop for this thing is the plastic titie shop for some unreal enhancements.....lol.
@ Russ "A friend of mine had an adjustable Bias mod done on his amp and adjusted it with an amp tech while he was playing to get a better sound that he liked."
That's the ideal way to set bias. Bias current affects gain of the output tubes, low currents reduce gain, decrease feedback, very low currents can introduce a crunchy distortion. High currents increase gain & brightness/smoothness. There will also be a point midway, where the amp sounds most "normal", not overly crunchy, not overly bright. I would say that <15mA is cold/cool, 15-25mA middle of the road, 25mA to 35mA hot.
I tend to start around the 15mA mark, then go down a bit to 10 or just under, then up & see how the player likes it. There's no real reason to go much over 35-40mA per tube in a bassman, much higher than this introduces risk of shortened tube life & blown fuses/rectifiers.
Some tubes don't like cold currents, like NOS Tung Sol (Tung Sol RI can be fine down to 15mA), my preferred brands are the Sovtek 5881WXT, NOS Phillips 6L6WGB & GE short bottle 5881. All sound good at a range of currents.
Set bias for tone, it's the latest perameter in the amp circuit that you can adjust, no other control can affect the tone in the same way, so once you are happy with the bias you may find you have more flexibility with the other controls.
That sounds great, an adjustable bias. how is this mod done? and once it's set does it ever need to be re-set? and does it take a tech to get the levels set properly. I thought about this when I changed my rectifier tube. I've heard that changing the rectifier and the power tubes would upset the bias values that was built into the circuit for the provided tubes(stock) I have changed my rectifier tube several times but always keep the same rating of the tube in there, same with the power tubes their a matched set of NOS GE's. I've read that even different brand tubes of the same rating could have a different value rating to them. I.E gain percentages ? about 4 years ago when I got this amp I called Skip Simmon and spoke to him on the phone and he shared some ideas with me about how to bring some of the brightness down and reduce the feed back on the amp with out doing alot of mods to it but still keep the volume levels good. ( he is one heck of a nice guy, and extremely smart when it comes to electronics and amps) so I've only followed his advice up to this point. I don't play in large gigs but I do play out doors alot, but I don't think I need a whole lot of mods to the amp so I'm louder then any one else. If I need that then SOME ONE ELSE is playing way to loud.by the way I play with a friend who has a Sonny JR. 4x8 and his amp kicks ass, sounds great, and has as much volume as one would ever need, but his cost of it was double what mine cost. is it better? depends on who you ask. I like the way his sounds and because we've played together alot I've been able to tailor my amp to try and mimic the sound of his amp as far as tonality.......I know alot has to do with personal playing ability, tone from with in etc.(thats another thread) but my amp sounds great compaired to the Sonny Jr. this amp thing is like the mic thing and like BBQ Bob said first you have to master the acoustic tonality ,resonance,breath control in order for any thing to sound decent through an amp.
@ Stones "That sounds great, an adjustable bias. how is this mod done? and once it's set does it ever need to be re-set? and does it take a tech to get the levels set properly." R40 in a RI is replaced with a trim pot, wired as a variable resistor (see the link in Matzens post at the top of the thread), in series with a fixed resistor. LTD's have a trim pot as stock (on R41, R40 can still be tweaked to adjust pot sweep), as do Victorias, Kendricks, Clarks etc...bias is adjusted whenever you install new power tubes, as even tubes from the same manufacturer vary. Possibly needs adjusting when switching between rectifiers, but not always necessary. With a trim pot you can set the bias yourself, if you have bias probes (or 1ohm "cathode read" resistors - again, see doc in Matzen's post), a voltmeter ($15 at the local hardware store) and a screwdriver.
"I've heard that changing the rectifier and the power tubes would upset the bias values that was built into the circuit for the provided tubes(stock)" Changing from solid state to a tube rectifier is very unlikely to cause a problem with reliability, as is changing from a 5AR4 to a 5U4G. However changing a 5U4 for a 5AR4 or to a SS will increase bias current, possibly too much so. Amps, even the original 5F6A, are subject to the same manufacturing tolerances as everything else, the circuit was set for a reasonable average, with fixed values to save money. In terms of the amp "functioning" without failing under warranty, anything from 5mA to 40mA will work, so you see that manufacturers were not too bothered about fine tuning. Think of it like cylinder head squish clearances in a motor...in a production car there will be a minimum clearance, but no maximum as long as the thing runs...a racer/race engine builder will know the squish clearance to the thousandth of an inch.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2011 2:55 PM
THANKS thats a killer web site for anybody looking to learn about their amp, I'll be honest electronics is not my strong point, but small things like this with enough guidence should not be to hard, I try to adhere to the K.I.S.S. philosophy and don't want or need an amp thats going to need constant attention. I've built lots of hotrods that have been that way, thats not me anymore. I'm going to spend some time and really pour over this website and soak it all in.. right now it aint broke so I'm not going to fix it better.......damn it I just can't stop tinkering though. again thanks for the info.
BTW my rectifier is a 5U4G that I got from Russia, this sucker is about the size of a small coke bottle, not kidding this thing hangs below my backing board by an inch. but when I put it in the tone was instantly more mellow and very creamy. I love it. that one tube alone made the most distinctive tonal change of any tube changes I've made to this thing.
