Yo Buddha man i couldn't get the link to work but i got to listen to some of your other work,That Hendrix tune was classic, and the Blues tunes great stuff
could you please email the TB LP MP3 to me thanks
Thanks Big-B GOT The MP3
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 5:03 PM
Adam - it looks like others have already addressed your accusations of what you think I've said. I've tried to be extremely clear in what I say and why I'm saying it. Sorry that you somehow misconstrued or misinterpreted what I've been saying.
I never said 24/7 TB is the only way to go, nor is it what I teach. I do teach a lot of TB, but that is because as soon as I introduce it to students they WANT to learn it when they see (and HEAR, Chris) the difference it makes...and I have learned how to teach it to almost any level player.
In my eyes the debate has never been to TB or LB....but how MUCH TB do you want to utilize in your own playing, and how much will it add to your playing.
One more thing, it's also (for me) never been about who can tell when someone else is doing what. It's about getting the most diverse sounds out of your instrument and getting the widest variety of tones & textures from your instrument. I also have never met a student or pro player (who uses both techniques - as most do) say that they didn't get a bigger sound and/or fuller, fatter tone with TB. That's mostly what I've been saying here and also happens to be my own experience.
I'm fine with agreeing to disagree as well. But taking what I say out of context or taking it to mean something else is not agreeing to disagree...it's a communication failure or a misintepretation.
Geez, Adam, I know I shouldn't speak for Dennis, but I can say that in the two and a half years I've been taking lessons from him, I've never heard him be so adamant about tongue blocking 24/7.... Are you sure you are right about that?
Nice to see all you ladies are getting along in harmonious continuity.
Yes. I'm back in the USA. Note to self: No need to EVER return to Haiti.
I am back in time to see my old friend win the big doggie sled race for the fourth time IN A ROW.
Go, Lance, Go
Sadly, however I was not back in time for S&BJD: http://www.steakandbjday.com/
I will be back at the remote alpine lair by tomorrow and will spend some time with fine American whiskey to review what you kids have all been up to in my absence.
Blues Harmonica content: I played a lot (not much else to do after work). Made some friends with guitars and such. Haitians are living Modern Blues everyday.
I have been at this a long time and I get a laugh out of these conversations. I am laughing at myself. I still don't know if I am any of these things. I just blow it and do things inside my mouth to get the sounds I want. I put my tongue on the comb sometimes to get an acordian like sound. What that is I have no idea. The bottom line is - do you like the sounds you make. I saw this same deep study of the guitar when I lived in Austin. I guess I am old school. I learned from the old players that just plugged in to whatever and made it sound like they sound. I think if some people put in as much time actually playing as writing about analizing the harp, they would be much better players. Walter
what is it? I don't know. Maybe somebody can tell me so I know what to do
(tongue in cheek :-) )
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
I was not happy with the way I sounded. I was a playing guitar from the age of 8 until I was 12. I played drums,trombone,timpani,bass drum and trumpet in high school. I picked up the harmonica around 1981 after hearing Geils and Cotton. Being a musician and somewhat of a perfectionist,I made a huge move to improve my tone and intonation. I started with Bonfiglio and Howard-taking lessons from both. It was just too much work for me at that point in my life-that's where Dennis came in. I guess it depends on the person-their musicality-dedication-desire-willingness to learn. No doubt,embouchre and the mouth,throat and diapragm have a lot to do with it-human anatomy if you will. How many of you sing and play harp? It's a tough job-I do it all night at gigs. Trying to keep all these techinques solid all night and sing as well is taxing on many levels. Dennis started me tongue-blocking. I had cut 2 CD's lip pursing-and anyone can tell the difference in tone and how the harp cuts through the mix with the tongue-block style versus lip-purse-especially me-I am my own toughest critic. Not only is Dennis a great teacher and mentor,he's just a great person as well. Highly regarded and respected by some of the greatest living harmonica players today. Not just blues harp players either. Thanks Dennis-let's hope you keep posting here.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 2:26 PM
Nastyolddog, Ryan is correct. Lip pusing and lip blocking is not the same thing. Lip pursing is the pucker method. Lip blocking is putting the harp inside the lower lip and using the lower lip as a cradle for the harp. Then tilting the face of the harp downward or the back of the harp upward until the lower lip naturally blocks the holes adjacent to the one you are playing. Myself, I get a better tone tongue blocking and lip blocking than I do lip pursing because I have a more relaxed embouchure using those two methods and tongue blocking and lip blocking are easier for me than lip pursing but everybodys different.
Playing and singing all night is only as hard as what is behind you(this includes your own skills). I have been onstage just blowing harp and it nearly killed me it was so wacked out. Now that I am a full time 1 man band, I can tell you I rarely get tired and am singing, playing guitars, harps, drums, keys, all at once. If you stick to what is your natural range of voice, playing of instruments, grooves, you get in a hypnotic groove and you will also have your own style. I learned this when I live with Louisiana Red. Red can play 24/7 no lie. I never understood it until recently. Playing in bands was always fatiguing because I had to be aware of what was going on. Then when I started fronting my own band it got better, but much of the night was the same. Then I would get on the street and play for 5-10 hours with not even stopping. I wondered why this didn't happen as often with my bands. Then the one man band answered it in spades- no comproming and you can play all day and night. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
Lip pusing and lip blocking is not the same thing. Lip pursing is the pucker method. Lip blocking is putting the harp inside the lower lip and using the lower lip as a cradle for the harp. Then tilting the face of the harp downward or the back of the harp upward until the lower lip naturally blocks the holes adjacent to the one you are playing.
To describe lip blocking as substantially different from pursing is a major leap. To lip block: use pursed lips and tilt the harp. So, it's just a minor variation on pursing.
I have heard lots of what Jason and Adam play, and I can say this: I am a hybrid play. A tongue purser. I actually tongue block most of the time in the high end, but when it's time for speed and overblows and more precise bends, it's going with no tongue blocking. Buddha is totally correct. Again, listen to Howard Levy, if that is not good playing then I don't know what is. Howard and Chris definitely aren't full time tongue blockers (unless I have been misinformed). Some of the greats lip pursed a whole lot.
Ev630, OK I'll call it the tilted embouchure. Still, when people hear the terms Pursed Lips Method or Lip Blocking, many think of the pucker or "fish-face" method which is bringing the lips to the harp instead of bringing the harp to the lips. When people pucker to get single notes, they are using the muscles in their mouths too much and their mouth muscles can become tired. And with the pucker method there's a smaller air passage than with the tilted embouchure. So those two methods are substantially different. That's what I meant. The tilted embouchure has one drawback though. It looks strange performing it.
which is bringing the lips to the harp instead of bringing the harp to the lips
This reminds me of my own method which I call the "cosmic method". Instead of me bringing my lips to the cosmos I snap my fingers and the cosmos comes to me.
"To describe lip blocking as substantially different from pursing is a major leap. To lip block: use pursed lips and tilt the harp. So, it's just a minor variation on pursing"
Sorry, but that's incorrect EV630. There is no need to purse your lips when lip blocking (unless you consider what a TB'er does to be lip pursing only with their tongue on the harp).
Put the harp into your mouth exactly the same way you would as when you TB (but don't put your tongue on the harp), if the harp is straight in you mouth and you blow/draw you will get a chord. Now take your harp and slowly tilt the back of the harp up, and if you are doing it correctly, your bottom lip will begin to block out the holes until you get a single clear note (no need to purse your lips).
When I do this I do move my mouth into a large circular/oval shape, but I'm not really pursing my lips(depending on how you define pursing), but it's certainly not necessary to have your mouth shaped any differently than it would be while TB. So if Lip Blocking is only Lip Pursing with the harp tilted, then Tongue Blocking is only Lip Pursing with your tongue on the harp. I highly doubt anyone would agree with that.
What the hell are you talking about EV630? Apparently you're the type of person who acts out childishly when people disagree with you. I clearly explained to you why LP and LB are not the exact same thing, but as I've seen on several other threads, you're not the type of person who can accept when they're wrong.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 9:16 PM
Ev630,The quote about "bringing the harp to the lips instead of bringing the lips to the harp" comes from David Barrett when he talks about the tilted embouchure as opposed to puckering. David Barrett is one of the best harmonica teachers in the business and for people who knows what he's talking about it makes sense. Maybe you're getting the wrong cosmos when you snap your fingers.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 9:36 PM
I'm a mixed embouchure player, but I LP more than I TB. I also play ET harps because I regularly play in 6 positions and anything but ET tends to sound out of tune. Too many flat notes.
If one is playing ET, the chordal embellishments some players like to get through certain TBing techniques don't sound particularly good, and, for the overwhelming most part, those chordal techniques don't work musically when playing in positions 4, 5 and 12. So, TBing full time may be more useful for players who don't play ET harps and who restrict themselves to playing in positions 1, 2 and 3.
I happen to agree with Buddha that a player who uses proper technique can get equally good tone production whether LPing or TBing. I move back and forth between LPing and TBing when I play and I seem to be able to maintain consistent tone.
But, TBing FORCES a player to do certain things that are essential to good tone, otherwise it is not possible to TB effectively. However, if a conscious and disciplined effort is made to employ and maintain those techniques when LPing, equivalent tone production is attainable. It just requires more deliberate effort.
And, as bbqbob and Adam have pointed out, there are some things you can only do TBing and some things you can only do LPing. So, a player needs to be able to do both in order to play effectively.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 9:49 PM
Ev630, it becomes pretty clear when you respond like child instead of responding rationally. If you had an actual argument against what I had said, and could rationally support your point of view, you would have done so. Clearly you were unable to continue supporting your argument, so instead you responded childishly.
This is getting old, I don't know why I even correspond with you when you act like this.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 10:00 PM
DanP, I recall that from Barrett's DVD. It just struck me as a funny comment, but I understand what he's getting at.
Ryan - I disagree with you. I think there's a lot of sophistry applied to make a variation of puckering sound like a whole different technique. Perhaps it's to do with the TB vs. pucker issue that some guys get hung up on.
If you don't enjoy my sense of humour, that's fine with me. Go ahead, spit the dummy ask me, "what the hell" I'm talking about. Knock yourself out.
But to say I don't have an argument is wrong, and to assume I have "lost" some kind of argument is also weak.
I've read your descriptions and they're not convincing. What I'm saying is that lip blocking is just a variation of puckering no matter how you slice it. TB is also in a sense a variation except there's something entirely different going on inside the mouth.
So far the three embouchures that appear to exist are: puckering, TB-ing and tongue curling.
First off I never said you "lost" an argument. I'm not interested in "winning" or "losing" arguments. I am interested in arguing my point of view, and if someone responds rationally, and I disagree with what they've said, I will respond explainig exactly why I disagree. Now if someone makes an argument that convinces me, I will admit I'm wrong. If I were unable to make a rational argument against what they've said I most certainly wouldn't respond the way you did. Unfortunately when some people are unable to rationally respond, and they lack some maturity, they will ignore everything the person said and just make a childish response. That's what I consider "weak". Maybe you did have an actual argument and instead just chose to respond the way you did. But how is that any less immature, or "weak"?
Moving on, you say that tongue blocking is also variation of puckering (which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but fine), but you classify it differently because you use your tongue to block out the holes. When you lip purse, you pucker your lips so that your mouth forms a hole small enough that the air only flows through one hole on the harp. When you lip block you don't pucker your lips, you just stick the harp in your mouth. If you were to play like that, you'd be playing several holes. Now you can use your tongue to block out the extra holes (ie. tongue blocking or u-blocking) OR you can tilt the harp and use the inside of your bottom lip to block the extra holes. This is very different from puckering up your lips small so you can only blow into one hole at a time. You can pucker/purse you lips to get a single note and then tilt the harp, but you won't be lip blocking, you're just LP with the harp tilted(that is not LB). The technique is very different, but if you want to continue claiming it's all just variations, then it's just going to be your opinion vs. mine. But I'd be willing to bet most people would disagree with your opinion.
If you look at other wind instruments, many of them have different ways of forming an embouchure. And if you look at it your way, then yes, they are all just variations of each other, and yet they still give each embouchure a different label/name, because they're done differently (just like LP and LB).
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 11:39 PM
In order for clarity, I agree they need to be described as separate techniques, rather than just a variation. The term pucker just doesn’t describe what’s going on from either a teaching or learning point of view, or as you say the necessary level of sophistry required to change ones tone when playing with a different embouchure other than TB (sorry I had to look that word up and really wanted to use it in a sentence).
Anyway if we are arguing semantics, below is the definition of "pucker" and I simply don't do any of it when I "pucker" on my harp.
puck•er (pkr) v. puck•ered, puck•er•ing, puck•ers v.tr. To gather into small wrinkles or folds: puckered my lips; puckered the curtains. v.intr. To become gathered, contracted, and wrinkled. n. 1. A wrinkle or wrinkled part, as in tightly stitched cloth. 2. A facial expression in which the lips are tightly pulled together and pushed outward. 3. A tart flavor that causes one's lips to pucker: the pucker of lemon.
Last Edited by on Mar 16, 2010 11:34 PM
Nasty - Nice video comparison. The tongue blocked section certainly sounds sweeter, smoother and significantly less harsh/agressive than the lip pursing section to my ear.
The bends are also much, much smoother in the tongue blocked section. They swoop up and down more smoothly than in the lip pursing section. Which admittedly could purely be down to your technique.
Of course though I'm predominantly a tongue blocker so I could be accused of being biased and undoubtedly will be by some people.
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2010 3:45 AM
I don't know what you mean by saying it just lip pursing and "choking" the note. What do you mean by choking? If you're doing it correctly, the inside of your bottom lip is blocking off the holes surrounding the note you want to play, hence the term lip blocking.
Their really isn't a need to pucker/purse your lips while doing this. Most beginning harp books describe LP by telling you to pucker/purse your lips, like you were drinking from a straw, forming a small hole, and this will allow you to blow into a single hole, because your mouth is openly open wide enough to play a single hole. This is not what is happening when you lip block.
I think most people who lip purse, after a time they unconsciously start to change there embouchure into more of a lip block style, but never really thought about it or realised it. I think it sort of naturally happens as you work on getting better tone, you drop your jaw and put the harp deeper in your mouth(requiring your mouth to open wider)and you start tilting the harp. They may still pucker/purse their lips some, but really its not necessary to pucker your lips at all when LB.
I do think the two terms should be differentiated, because pursing your lips to make a small hole (which is what beginners are taught to do) is much more likely to lead to thin tone. But the term lip pursing is so widely used that I doubt the term lip blocking will ever get used my most people, unfortunatley. Lip pursing simply is not a good description of what you do when lip blocking, especially considering there's no need to purse your lips. It just doesn't make much sense.
I don't think this really proves anything except Nasty is better at TB than LP. I am exactly the same.
With a player who regularly does both methods, you would not be able to tell.
Can you tell which method Kim Wilson or Rod Piazza is using on a particular note?
The only way I can tell is if I hear a slap,or if, esp Kim is playing the 4 draw weedy for effect.
At present I play everything tongued, but am finding problems emulating Rod and Little Walter. I'm not talking about playing the note, but shaping it, and the tone of it.
A good analogy is, I want to paint a complete picture, but have some colours missing from my palette.
You can play anything either way. But its what sound you want at a particular time that should dictate which method to use. ---------- The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
I agree with 7LimitJI, this really isn't a good way of judging. When someone says that their tongue blocking tone sounds better than their LP/LB tone, then we already know their tongue blocking tone is better developed. The only way for this to be a somewhat fair test is to have someone who agrees with the fact that there is no difference in tone between the two(when done properly)and who is aknowledged as having great tone both TB and LB/LP. For example, I think it would be fair if Howard Levy were to perform such a test, but that is not likely to happen. On the other hand, Buddha has given an example and personally I think he fits the description of what's needed.
I admit that getting good tone will come more easily/naturally when TB, just due to the nature of how you shape you mouth and oral cavity when tongue blocking. BUT you can get equally good tone when LB/LP, it just takes more work to figure out exactly how to form your embouchure as well as your oral cavity, throat, etc. This is something that can be difficult to figure out if you don't have someone showing you the proper technique.
Chris posted a good example. I'm sorry, but lip pursing, or whatever, can be just as good. Adam Gussow, Chris Michalek, Jason Ricci, Howard Levy, Carlos Del Junco, the list goes on, are not full time tongue blockers, and some are probably mostly lip pursers. These guys have some of the best tone I have heard.
Hi Ryan please let me use your disscription to try and give my meaning i do differ in some of your description please take no offence
don't know what you mean by saying it just lip pursing and "choking" the note. What do you mean by choking? If you're doing it correctly, the inside of your bottom lip is blocking off the holes surrounding the note you want to play, hence the term lip blocking. YES i understand what you meen.
Most beginning harp books describe LP by telling you to pucker/purse your lips, like you were drinking from a straw, forming a small hole, and this will allow you to blow into a single hole, because your mouth is only open wide enough to play a single hole.
Bro i find this part above incorrect Please let me explain my veiw, this only allows the outer lips to come in contact with the Harp. i put the Harp right in my mouth useing the soft inner lips to play the hole im sounding,
now that i just tryed its more of my inner cheeks just behind my lips sort of bunching up covering holes either side of the note i want to sound,
I think most people who lip purse, after a time they unconsciously start to change there embouchure into more of a lip block style, but never really thought about it or realised it. Bro i never thought about it but sort of what im doing with the inner Lip cheek thing i mentioned above
I think it sort of naturally happens as you work on getting better tone, you drop your jaw and put the harp deeper in your mouth(requiring your mouth to open wider)and you start tilting the harp.
Yes i aggree but i never realy had the harp tilted that far back to achieve the same effect,with my harp fully in my mouth tilted at the normale angle of play,so i guess that is my confusion with lip Blockin
I do think the two terms should be differentiated, because pursing your lips to make a small hole (which is what beginners are taught to do) is much more likely to lead to thin tone.
Yes Bro i aggree ive heard it discribed as Kissing your granny on the cheek i think this is incorrect,
i would teach the student to put the harp in your mouth like kissing your girlfriend open mouth, but not sticking the Toungue down her throat big wide open mouth Kissing,
Lip pursing simply is not a good description of what you do when lip blocking, Like you say Bro the Lip Pursing term has been around a long time it will be hard to get used to,
especially considering there's no need to purse your lips.It just doesn't make much sense.
im with you Bro Lip Pursing is realy a bad term all round, when you realy shouldn't have a tight Pucker or Pursed outer lips only touching the comb, when the Harp is truly ment to be fully in your mouth with a wide open chamber,
Ryan i do hope ive explained myself yes it is going to be hard getting used to the term Lip Blocking but at least i know what the Brothers meen, good onya mate Thats about it for me Bro's,
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2010 1:05 AM
Agree with 7LimitJI. Nasty, you don't seem to be putting in equal effort to playing the 2 styles, in making them sweet, you have also told people up front which is which, making it hard to be objective. As a test, the clip proves nothing.
Kingley wrote, "Of course though I'm predominantly a tongue blocker so I could be accused of being biased and undoubtedly will be by some people." Yes, I think you are. :-) I am predominantly a TB'er too but I am pretty sure that with a bit of effort the 2 methods can be made indistinguishable. Certain pieces may lend themselves more comfortably to one technique over the other.
There is still time to judge my 2 clips in "Embouchure comparison" thread, a few more opinions would help bulk out the sample & make the data a little more "robust".
Here's the thing though I'm not making generalisations about either technique. My observations were purely regarding the clip that Nasty posted and in reference to his playing on it.
I listened to your clips as well Mark and I think that the difference is barely discernible in your clip if at all.
In my opinion both methods are valid for playing and both can garner good tone when used properly.
Adam Gussow, Chris Michalek, Jason Ricci, Howard Levy, Carlos Del Junco, the list goes on, are not full time tongue blockers,
and some are probably mostly lip pursers. These guys have some of the best tone I have heard.
Man i got to aggree great players great tone But I would say they are Hybrid player,
meaning they combine both methods equaly or when called for 60/40 split or what ever percentage the tune may requier,
saying they are primarly Lip Pursers i know will piss one of the players above of big time I'm Ducking for cover:)
Bro's i tryed to be fair in my comparison for those who don't know i was a Lip Purser some 24 months or more a ways back now, thanks for the wrap on my TB'ing
This is the best i can do i would ask for some of you guys to post a clip i would be very intrested to her some other examples
i did not try or use any more breath force than needed to produce a note on either method, as for not sounding sweet i didn't want sweet or embleshed notes that is raw with no fancy stuff,
HAY Adam would you mind helping out
Hay maybe we aren't talking about tone the more i hear my clip the tones are very similar maybe we have pitch confused with tone,
Thats it Bro's im exsuasted on this one feel free to keep deliberating,
i will read on with intrest Thanks guys I'm going to Pat my Dog some more:)
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2010 7:28 AM
"Man i got to aggree great players great tone But I would say they are Hybrid player," Well terminology isn't standardised so I guess we can interpret the terms LP & TB however we choose to do so as individuals...which really muddies the water further.
As most players combine both techniques (a lip blocked octave would be interesting to hear) my personal dividing line (not what I expect others to adhere to) is how a player typically selects the draw bends, as this can be where differences are thought to show up. This prevents them from being fully in the TB camp, I guess equally it could then be argued that a TB'er who LPs blow bends, overblows and low draw notes is in the same position.
If so, I can count the number of "bugs in the teeth" TBers that I am aware of on one hand...it's pretty well a Yeti hunt, everyone is aware of the reputation but so few have actually seen, or reported the reality, that it's barely worth the bandwidth.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that what some are referring to as "lip blocking" will produce inferior tone because it inhibits the DEPTH of the embouchure--how deep one gets the harp into the mouth.
If one is using truly deep LP embouchure, the ONLY place the lips themselves actually touch the harp is at the corners of the mouth where the top and bottom lips join. The rest of the harp is in contact with the area of the mouth just INSIDE of the lip line.
Depth of embouchure has a huge effect on tone. When TBing it is possible to actually get the holes of the harp into the mouth past the top and bottom teeth, for a larger and less obstructed oral resonance chamber. But TILTING while using a deep embouchure and LPing gets the holes of the harp in the mouth past the top teeth.
TBing forces the player to drop and relax the jaw and use a very large air aperture, which also makes for a larger, more relaxed oral resonance chamber. But these things can also be done while LPing if the player is deliberate about it.
Now, if a player can bend using the throat instead of the tongue and can articulate separation between notes by starting and stopping the diaphragm instead of using the tongue, it is possible to play LPing while keeping the tongue on the bottom of the mouth which puts the tongue LOWER in the mouth than it is when playing TBing. This opens up the oral resonce chamber more than enough to compensate for not having the harp in the mouth past the bottom teeth--and so a LP player who does that forms at least as large and at least as unobstructed an oral resonance chamber as a TB player and thereby achieves at least equivalent tone.
Of course air production from deep at the diaphragm and keeping the airway open and relaxed is essential to good tone whether LPing or TBing.
Last Edited by on Mar 17, 2010 8:17 AM
With all due respect, your first vid sounds like you are using relatively shallow air production whether you are TBing or LPing which inhibits resonance, but it could just be the mic on the computer that is making you sound that way. To my ear, the tone that is being produced is not "fat."
your first vid sounds like you are using relatively shallow air production whether you are TBing or LPing which inhibits resonance,
Bro i wasn't say breathing shallow just useing a normal Breath, no hash drawing or over bending in like sucking ice cream through a straw type of breath a normal breath
but it could just be the mic on the computer that is making you sound that way. To my ear, the tone that is being produced is not "fat."
correct Bro i wasn't going for fat tone i used a Micro JVC Enviro HD camers to do the clip
Don't worry Bro the next vid i held nothing back to inhibit my tone, it's comeing very soon
"As most players combine both techniques (a lip blocked octave would be interesting to hear) my personal dividing line (not what I expect others to adhere to) is how a player typically selects the draw bends, as this can be where differences are thought to show up. This prevents them from being fully in the TB camp, I guess equally it could then be argued that a TB'er who LPs blow bends, overblows and low draw notes is in the same position."
I think you're onto a key distinction here. I never bend the 2 draw TB'd, and I virtually never bend the 3 draw or 4 draw, or any other draw note TB. I'm experimenting with bending the 8 and 9 blow TB'd, but I very rarely do that.
So that is the dividing line. The "full-time TB'er," as we might call Dennis, Filisko, etc., would, I'm sure, pretty much always do their bends on those holes while TBing.
