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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Vibrato
Vibrato
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waynesnyder
Guest
Mar 19, 2008
8:42 PM
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I would like to ask if anyone has advice on how to
do the throat vibrato. I've listened to the early
lessons on vibrato many times, but I have to say I'm just not
getting the vibrato that I think Adam is talking
about. I can actually get a really nice vibrato by
moving my Adam's apple up and down, but it only works
on unbent draw notes, and I can't do it nearly fast
enough. I can also change my mouth position to
get a kind of wavering bend that sounds ok, but again,
can not do it very fast. Adam is saying that it should
come from the pulsing of the vocal chords, but when
I do that, I get tremolo with no pitch variation.
Should I just keep at it as Adam advises and assume
it will come with time?
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D.C.
9 posts
Mar 21, 2008
12:31 PM
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I had the exact same problem, think of it as a backwards cough. To get this down you must be a fanatic, I practice without a harp walking around if I think no one is looking. Really try to isolate it to your adams apple. I did the apple shake it just made me feel bad lol. Just focus your attention on your throat and it will come in due time.
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NG
15 posts
Apr 25, 2008
4:57 PM
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Amen to what DC said. You need to be a fanatic to get Throat Vibrato. That is Throat Vibrato that achieves pitch change. You'll need to speak to someone who can do it in the flesh so they can tell when you are actually getting close to it. Then practise for months. Toughest technique I've learnt.
(I've even given it capital letters I'm so in awe of it :)
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2008 5:04 PM
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harpmonkey
21 posts
Apr 25, 2008
5:32 PM
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Try saying "guck" then do it faster.
Then say it in shorter (stacatto) by going from "guck" to "gck".
Once you have the "feel" of it, do it on the intake, or breathing in motion.
That will help get you focused on the general area, but it is a bit further back and down the throat.
Then try using an "uh" sound where you "cutoff" the airflow, or reduce it a great deal.
Once you have this, try with the harp and see if it makes a difference for you.
Hope that helps.
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Philosofy
17 posts
Apr 25, 2008
9:43 PM
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I've thought of it like saying "Baaaa" like imitating a sheep. Or like your breath sounds when you are really cold and shivering. Is that right?
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BeelzeBob
1 post
May 17, 2008
2:48 PM
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I've been playing on and off for over thirty years, still can't do vibrato. I wasn't trying hard because I got the impression only a handful of players could do it. Then the Internet made me realize that lots of amateur players could do vibrato, and do it well. I go around all day making weird noises, thinking I've finally got it, but then I try it with a harmonica and nothing happens. I'm not giving up. I saw a youtube video this week where the guy said 'make a monkey sound.' So I've been trying that, too. My next step is what was mentioned in this thread. Find somebody who can do it and tell you if you're hot or cold. Finding that person, that's the hard part.
Bob
Last Edited by on May 17, 2008 2:51 PM
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eharp
30 posts
May 17, 2008
3:10 PM
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try doing a freezing monkey who is imitating a sheep! then wait for your special jacket that has sleeves that wrap all the way around you.
(i'll be trying these suggestions but i'll wait for the family to be gone.)
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DutchBones
7 posts
May 17, 2008
6:32 PM
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Maybe try this...it works for me...
Blow (or suck) on a hole, preferable a low one (1st or 2nd hole) make it sound looong until you're starting to run out of air (or start to fill up with air)...THAT's when you add your vibrato...the pressure and the tension in you stomache will make it sound good.
In the beginning it will be tough because you're running out of breath, but once you get used to it, you'll be able to create the same "tension" BEFORE you're running out of breath and it will be more "controlled"
Personally I like vibrato best when its added halfway or at the end of a note....
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oldwailer
39 posts
May 17, 2008
10:59 PM
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Wow Dutchbones,
That is a good tip! Thanks!
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BeelzeBob
2 posts
May 21, 2008
11:06 PM
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Okay, I've been doing the sitting in the car at night in a parking lot thing, because I can only play harp at home on weekends. Plus I am doing a lot of cursing because of my inability to make any progress (and am generally not fit to be around, this thing has me in a foul mood). Tonight, just as I was ending another fruitless session, I tried something different, and I think it's a little similar to Dutchbone's idea. I tried narrowing the harp hole by mashing my lip over half of it. Lower lip worked better than upper for me. Then I angled the harp to narrow the air passage further. Up or down worked equally well. It was a pretty radical slant. I also tried pinching my nose shut, although I ended up thinking it helped but wasn't necessary. I then started a slow, slight bend (this is the part that sounds to me like Dutchbone's idea) and did the diaphragm quiver Adam shows on video. I paid no attention to epiglottis or making a certain noise or any of that crap that hasn't helped me at all. I just tried to get that wavering tone. And I got something usable. I'm not sure that I can work it into my playing, but hopefully I can in time. It's not great, but at least it might be a step in the right direction.
One of the things I notice when I try clucking the epiglottis is that I can make plenty of noise doing that, but my air draw isn't generated there, so I get no harp sound. Should the air be generated from the clucking (or whatever sound you use)? I'm not sure where my air is coming from, but it seems to skirt around the area I'm clucking. I realize the air has to go through the epiglottis. Other than that, I'm not sure what's happening.
Also, DB mentioned blow vibrato? I didn't know there was such a thing? I always hear it on a draw, at least I thought.
I'm new here, is there any way to do a search?
Thanks to all,
Bob
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BeelzeBob
3 posts
May 21, 2008
11:15 PM
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Oh yeah, I'm going to see Jason Ricci at a small club June 7th. Cover is $5, can you believe it? Maybe he can steer me right, I hear he's very cool about helping harp players.
The club is Madam's Organ in Washington, DC, if anyone lives nearby. It's in the Adams Morgan neighborhood, that's why the name.
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honeydawg
9 posts
May 22, 2008
9:04 AM
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Beelzelbob,
Hey, another DC guy! I can't miss Jason; I'm certainly planning to see him again.
I might be able to help you with that vibrato... if I can't I certainly know someone who should be able to. Allen Holmes is an excellent teacher and great harp player who conducts a regular harmonica workshop on Capitol Hill. I can put you in touch?
You can e-mail me at honeydawg AT gmail.
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Jaybird
Guest
May 22, 2008
3:27 PM
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Try this...
Stick a low key harp (G or A) into your mouth and breathe in and out through it continuously. Don't try to play any particular tune and don't take it out of your mouth. Just breathe thru the harp.
After a few minutes of breathing only through your harp you will start to develop a vibrato technique naturally. Remember, don't take the harp out of your mouth.
The vibrato will come as you try to control your breathing.
It's a great exercise to do while driving the car.
Enjoy!
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BeelzeBob
4 posts
May 22, 2008
9:00 PM
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Honeydawg and others,
I just found out the same weekend as Jason Ricci, on Sunday, 7pm, at the Surf Club in Hyattsville, is the Harp Homecoming featuring Mark Wenner, Doug Jay, and some others. Phil Wiggins will do an acoustic set. Doug is in from Germany. Check out surfclublive.com for details.
I woke up feeling fringe lunatic about my vibrato exploits, but today everything I wrote still holds true, except plugging my nose helps much more than I indicated. My thought now is that focusing the air stream is the first priority, then whatever you do to make the vibrato. You can cluck until a rooster starts humping your leg, but no vibrato will happen until that air stream is right. One of the best I know at this can't explain it. He just tried to mimic the sound and it worked for him. Nothing musical is ever that easy for me.
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HarpLips
Guest
May 30, 2008
12:41 AM
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Hey Beelz,
Let me know how that Ricci show was. He never comes up to Toronto.
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BeelzeBob
7 posts
Nov 18, 2008
7:14 PM
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It's been six months since I posted upstream about achieving a slight vibrato. Well, it's improved quite a bit and become a usable technique in my playing. And even when I don't use vibrato, I continue to press my lower lip into the holes because it improves my articulation. Doing this only slightly affects my legato, unlike tongue-blocking which I use but not for fast runs. I also use diaphagm with this type of vibrato, but for me, throat/glottis has nothing to do with it. I may post a youtube video on this at some point, because I've been trying for over 30 years to get a vibrato and now, it seems, I have one. Not a great one, but good enough.
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kudzurunner
168 posts
Nov 18, 2008
8:44 PM
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A young (24) harmonica student in Scandinavia emailed me earlier this week and offered the following thoughts about vibrato. They struck me as so thoughtful and useful that I wanted to share them. I may post them elsewhere on the website, but I'll share them here, too:
"I actually have some feedback on the vibrato lessons on youtube as well as the tone control lesson from modernbluesharmonica.com. What I get from your lesson is that I should practise basically an inward caugh, and the over time it will evolve into a smooth vibrato. Also I notice that you do a very fast vibrato while practising this. I started out this way, but eventually I've found kind of a different approach. Basically I practise doing a very slow and smooth vibrato without any throut tissue touching, and in stead of doing it a cauching pattern, where the throut is basically quickly going from closed to open to closed, pausing for a little while and then repeating, I try to skipp the pause, and I'm instead aiming for a more like a wave sound, like a sine wave pattern from math where the throut is open on the hills and almost closed in the valleys. It seems logical to me that this is what we want, and I'm sure your'e approach leads to this eventually. My point however is why not just start out with this smooth vibrato slowly and then work up the speed. This seems like the natual thing to do, it's what you would do with a fast lick right?
Execution:
I don't know if this is a natural endowment but I assume that everyone has the ability to while breathing inward just close the throut completely. (Actually I'm not closing it completely, but almost...) So I just basically did this and then opened the throat and then closed it again, in somewhat of a staccato fashion starting out, but after a while you are more and more able to smooth the transition from closed to opened.. and voila a smooth wave vibrato.
Now I'm still just beginning to develop my vibrato... it's getting quite smooth while I'm doing it slowly but I still lack lots in terms of speed, not to mention smoothness and speed combined. Also I'm actually practising alot without harmonica - just going around sucking air randomly :) - and I still have alot of practising before I'm able to work vibrato permanently into my playing. Anyway I just thought I could share my approach, don't now if it's better or worse yet, seems more logical to me so I guess I'm sticking with it, but by all means if you see a flaw my in approach please=2 0let me know so I don't waste any time..."
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GGiles
10 posts
Nov 19, 2008
5:55 AM
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What a strange instrument ... either you can naturally do some of the techniques or you can't and have to work hard at it.
I watched the vibrato videos .. I think the second day I found Adams videos, watched it and tried it and no problem with throat or stomach techniques.
I find the monkey sounds as mentiond above come more from the stomach then the throat. For this technique I find that if you (without a harmonica) make really big ouh, ouh sounds (find a private place) and don't concentrate on the sound but what your diaphram and stomach are doing ... really exagerate it ... get a good feel for it then try and not make the ouh, ouh sounds by blowing out air and contracting and releasing the stomach walls to change the amount of air going out .. more like puffs ... similar to hyper-ventallating (sp?). It has a lot of volume and is much harder to maintain then throat vibrato as it requires more effort.
For throat vibrato, without a harmonica, fake a quiet cough with a oh sound ... it should almost sound like a click. Then blow and try to reproduce the same sound ... KEY POINT ... don't vocalize the sound .. think about making the sound, shape your mouth for the sound and "feel for the click in your throat .. just back of your tougne.
I can make it go oh ... oh .... oh ... oh or oh,oh,oh,oh,oh,oh
Then try it with a harmonica. The harder you blow the louder the clicking "oh" sound you will get so go easy on it. Thes method of vibrato is easy to maintain.
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2008 5:56 AM
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Carl_Comfort
Guest
Nov 19, 2008
1:16 PM
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Indeed Gilles the clicking feeling/sound deep in your throat. that's right.
I had the revelation few weeks ago. I could to some sort of a gut vibrato after seeing Adam's video. It was hard to control and cost me much energy. However the throat vibrato remained a mystery.
I did a little bit everyday. Well almost. Now we're 1,5 years later. I did practise alot without harp too.
I think the clue, well for me is, to really isolate the breathing and the throat movement. Sounds obvious maybe, I sure couln't do it overnight.
The hardest of all is to get it like an effect you gently 'mix' in and let fade out. Anyway you want it.
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gene
68 posts
Nov 19, 2008
1:52 PM
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I was trying the throat vibrato, but my adam's apple wasn't moving. That indicates that the vibrato was coming from the back of the tongue; not the throat. I tried the "guck, guck" idea above. Now my adam's apple moves.
So far, I'm stuck with only two speeds: Fast (throat vibrato) and slow (gut vibrato). I don't have much trouble varying the intensity with either method, but I do need to work more on getting better control.
Thanks for the "guck, guck", Harpmonkey.
I guess I'm strange, but I have a weird little pet peave:
WOULD EVERYBODY PLEASE STOP REFERRING TO A CHIMPANZEE AS A MONKEY????!!!! It's like calling a whale a fish!! Being closely related to a chimp is fine, but it's embarrassing to realize we're kinda related to those...funky, squirelly...MONKEYS!! :)
Last Edited by on Nov 19, 2008 3:15 PM
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SweetLips
7 posts
Nov 19, 2008
2:22 PM
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When I started working on vibrato I found it easier to get the vibrato when using the 5 hole draw with a slight bend. A lot of the vibrato effect is created by breath control - suck in too much and you wont be able to hold the vibrato or note very long.
I also found it easier to control my breathing and therefore the vibrato if I maintain pressure (think of the harp, your mouth and lungs as a system and by keeping high pressure on the system you can impact the notes with smaller movements or changes - so like Adam's lessons on 2 hole draw - make a good seal with your lips to keep the pressure up.
I know there are discussions and differences between a true throat vibrato and a diaphram vibrato, but i really cant say which i do - probably a touch of both.
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Carl_Comfort
Guest
Nov 19, 2008
2:44 PM
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Hi Gene,
I think you need to get a steady airflow going, from the diaphram..then apply the throat thing you're doing.
See it as two seperate actions, and avoid the gut vibrato while trying. The gut flow steady, the throat pounding.
Tongue flat, back of the mouth for best sound. I think practising whtout the harp is very important, to get it asap.
Cheers good luck,
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gene
69 posts
Nov 19, 2008
3:28 PM
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Thank you, Carl.
I'm confused, though, about what you mean. "Steady flow" and "vibrato" (when applied to the diaphram method)seems to be contradictory.
Ah...(I'm trying it now as I'm writing this.) I think what you mean is "steady pressure." That's hard to do, but I can tell that it's doable, with practice.
With just a little practice, I'm getting a faster gut vibrato, but my diaphram tires quickly.
I still don't know how to slow down the throat vibrato, though.
If I can perfect the gut vibrato (good control of speed and intensity), why would I need throat vibrato?
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Carl_Comfort
Guest
Nov 20, 2008
1:26 AM
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No prob Gene,
By 'Steady flow' I ment a continuous air stream. Like you said, steady in pressure and volume. As you might know the better you're breathing from the diaphram the longer you can get the air going this way.
While the air is flowing, you make the vibrato with your throat. Since the diaphram is in use.
If you focus and put some power on it, and swallow, you'll also get shifts in pitches. That's the vibrato I'm trying to get.
The energy difference between throat and gut vibrato is gigantic. I think the throat method is also more 'modify-able' ones you get the hang of it.
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gene
72 posts
Nov 20, 2008
4:16 AM
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I'll keep working on it. After reading that simple "guck" thing, I have been able to slow my throat vibrato down.
I don't know how to "swallow" without cutting the air flow completely off, but I tried...something...(I dunno) and I noticed a change of timbre, but not pitch. It ALMOST sounds like a change of pitch...until I pay real close attention to it.
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Carl_Comfort
Guest
Nov 20, 2008
8:35 AM
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I'm sure you'll get it. It just takes time to control you're diaphram breathing and throat movement independent.
You can always practise anytime without the harp. I probably did that just as much. Tapping your foot or if you hear music somewhere. Great for relaxation too.
I started doing that 2 months ago. Alot. It really helped.
Later
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Scandinavian
Guest
Nov 22, 2008
8:03 AM
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Hi,
I'm the young scandinavian whose mail Adam shared earlier in this thread. I find the "guck" tips mentioned here quite good, it's close to where I started out, and then eventually you develop more smoothness.
As I wrote in my mail to Adam I've been practising quite a lot without the harmonica. Recently though I've been practising more with the harmonica, and I've come across a few insights that might be usefull. Adam, in his vibrato videos, more or less encourages you to practise on the two hole draw. This might be ok in the beginning I suppose, but I've found that practising on all holes, both blow and draw, and especially the higher holes is really usefull. Basically I've found that the two hole draw is one of the most forgiving in the form of embouchure, relaxation in breathing and throat muscles etc.
I quickly found the vibrato on the two hole quite easy, but when I tried other holes, and especially the higher ones, my pitch whent crazy most of the time. So until I managed in a higher degree to control my throat, breath and relaxation, and holding a good embouchure, I couldn't do vibrato on these holes...
So my suggestion is to practise vibrato on all holes, because first of all this is something i think one need to do just to be able to do the vibrato on all holes. And in the process I think it will help you develop bacially more control...
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gene
76 posts
Nov 22, 2008
4:55 PM
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As far as vibrato goes, all the holes seem the same to me.
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