Patrick Barker
56 posts
May 18, 2008
6:11 PM
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I've tried wood and plastic combed harps and I noticed that wood sounds a lot warmer (and better in my opinion). I've been wondering what peoples opinions are on those two comb materials as well as metal combs and genesis's Corian combs.
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harpmonkey
28 posts
May 18, 2008
10:22 PM
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Sound is predicated on vibrations.
I remember the talks about solid body guitars and sustain.
Then we found that the pickups, the polarity, the strings and so many things came into play, that in the end, the broad brush often paints over the details.
Same thing with horns, I play trumpet and have heard all the arguments for the various materials and bell types, lacquer no lacquer, and it does matter with them due to the vibration of the entire horn.
Harps mostly seem to be affected by the reeds, read plates and covers more than the comb.
The harp is more the "mouthpiece" and the mouth, hands (mic) being the "instrument".
In a Sax, or horn, the resonance of the mouth is not that much a factor in the tone, as the air-stream (for horns) and the control of the reed with a woodwind.
Hand the top of the line hand custom harp to a 2 year old, and the cheapest $2.00 harp to his twin brother and the noise will still run all the dogs off.
Wood, plastic, corian, aluminum, glass etc for a comb, may offer a very small amount of effect to the tonal quality.
Reeds and reed-plates will offer more of a factor in the tone.
The whole "warmer" "cooler" point is not as much about the comb composition, but about the sealing etc.
A well constructed harp and dedication to getting the best tone from the harp in your hand will go miles further than trying to find the "magic" harp.
All that being said, there is some element of perception and "feel" to a harp.
I prefer the wood combs of the Hohner Marine Bands and Seydel (well, I only own one Seydel, but I really like it a lot) But I have a few Oskar's and just don't like them all that well.
The MB, in my opinion just have a fuller warmer sound because of the overall construction.
I may be way off on the importance of wood over other materials, but I suspect Adam can tell you if there is a difference in the Genesis MB harp he has with the Corian over a stock MB for tone (reed adjustments not factored).
But as in all art, the artist brings more to the craft than the science.
Hope that helps.
At the end of the day, put your heart into it, and if you love it, I don't care when nobody else says, it's music...
Last Edited by on May 18, 2008 10:23 PM
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beng
6 posts
May 19, 2008
12:09 AM
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this guy seems to have written a useful answer to this very question..
http://www.patmissin.com/ffaq/q6.html
regardless of whether or not there is a right answer, plastic is always going to be the regarded as inferior. a wood comb has the perception of a warmer tone. Wood will always evoke feelings of warmth, nature, the good ol' days etc..etc...Looking at the design of most harmonica's (esp hohner's) they are certainly emphasising the heritage and tradition of the instrument, and therefore the wood seems to fit in with the overall retro design. I've just picked myself up a special 20 (plastic comb) and it has a wonderful, rich tone. however, as a beginner, i know there are a million things i have to learn before my playing will be good enough to warrant an opinion.
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Carl_Comfort
19 posts
May 19, 2008
9:06 AM
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A few month ago my first custom harp arrived. It's a Marine Band with a solid brass comb, with no further customizations only the back opend up. It's weight is very heavy.
The playability is amazing, it responds extremly fast unlike anything else (I only had plastic and wood before,no other metals). I'm not to sure about the sound though...in the sense of brass vs wood.
It's loud, that's for sure! Goodness gracious..even louder than a SP20, but I already play pretty loud, so don't realy need that actually. Compared to a normal MB it really misses that warmth I think, it is very clear. It does have that same jingling on the chords, which SP20 don't really. So I'm thinkin that's primaly due to the MB covers. Or just my imagination..
All together it's a great harp. Such a comb is for life of course, so I surely don't regret the purchase. BTW you have solid brass combs for MB's for sale on the site harponline.de, amazing site you can also order reedplates covers etc there, everything.
I have no experience with the corian plastic...I'd really like to own one..I believe Adam showed such a harp in one of his videos recently. I suspect it's pretty much the same story.
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Patrick Barker
58 posts
May 19, 2008
4:09 PM
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Thanks. The Pat Missin article with the sound clips was particularly enlightening. I guess the moral of the story is that harps sound different mainly for reasons other than their comb.
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Dduck
2 posts
May 20, 2008
5:47 AM
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Good question! I've been experimenting with different comb materials. Well, I should say, that I'm helping someone experiment. I cut a brass comb, and aluminum and now I'm currently making one out of magnesium. One thing that I've noticed is the different geometry that the different harp makers have. The combs of the Seydel, Lee Oskars and the Marine Bands are all different (length and width of each slot). I think the geometry of each individual hole may make a difference also. All the combs I see are basic rectangular slots. What if they were cylindrical in shape? Or a tapered conical shape? Hmmm, I've got some cutting to do! The ones I'm making now are going to have Seydel plates attached to them. From what I understand, Seydel reeds are of a bronze alloy based material. Where as Marine Band are brass. Add to that the different types of brass, or bronze, or maybe a different composition altogether and you can have a whole array of combinations. I am anxious to see what, if any, difference these will make. I've heard horn players talk of steel vs. brass, laquered vs. unlaquered also. But I'm sure this is another thing altogether. I really think that changing the geometry of the hole is going to do something. Eventually I will get out from behind this friggin' desk and back onto my shop floor and get some samples finished. I'll report back here as I get results.
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Carl_Comfort
20 posts
May 20, 2008
3:41 PM
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@Dduck very interesting post man please keep us up to date on your discoverys. That brass comb I have as enormous wide slots compared to a stock comb, maybe this also explains the drastic increase in volume, hope to hear more.
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Patrick Barker
59 posts
May 20, 2008
5:54 PM
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Dduck, those are some great ideas, and I'm curious to see how your experiments go. Speaking of the shape of the comb, I was also wondering what the plastic ledge thing in the back of Special 20 combs are for and how they affect the harmonica. Anyone know?
Last Edited by on May 20, 2008 5:55 PM
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Dduck
5 posts
May 21, 2008
10:21 AM
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Pat,
If you take a look at the top of the Special 20, you'll see that the reed plate sits in the molded pocket on the comb body. The Marine Band's and the Seydel's plate sits flush to the comb, except for a little bit on the hole side where the cover fits into a small slot. The Hohner MS Pro Harp sit's in a pocket molded on three sides with the reed in the front like the M.B. and the Seydel. I'm sure there are many other variations too, I just happen to have those three types with me now.
Or are you refering to the molded post inside the covers, near the back, middle of the harp? I think that is just to support the cover plate from crushing down. The Marine Band's or the Seydel's don't have that. I like to 'hem' the back flaps of all my Hohner harps. That not only opens the air passage quite a bit, it also strengthens the plate itself. That's an old tin knocker's trick for stiffining up a sheet metal edge. I saw a Jason Ricci video on Utube where he says he has posts put in for support. But I think that was on a Golden Melody, which I don't have any. What's odd is that I'm looking at a MS Pro harp right now and it only has that post on one side. Hmmm...wonder why?
Last Edited by on May 21, 2008 10:34 AM
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Patrick Barker
60 posts
May 21, 2008
5:07 PM
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I was actually talking about how when you look into the holes of a special 20 (in a place with good enough lighting) there is an actually a thing plastic shelf-like thing that seems to separate the bottom of the back of the hole from the top.
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Dduck
6 posts
May 23, 2008
8:04 AM
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oooh I see what you're talking about! I wondered about that too. I'm not sure if it's some kind of air diverter. I did read an article somewhere, sometime, by some guy that kind of, sort of (talk about being vague!)came up with that. I can't remember what the hell he said about it though. Maybe it was meant to act as a aerodynamic wind diversion thing-a-ma-jig thingy (technical term). I don't see that in any of the other harps. I sent an email to Hohner asking what it's for. I'll let you know what they say when I get a reply
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oldwailer
48 posts
May 23, 2008
6:09 PM
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My theory is that it's a cross-dimensional torsion bar--it other words I think they have to add little mysteries like that in plastic injection techniques to add strength to the comb. I'd be real interested to know if I'm wrong, since I'm only guessing here--in a tounge in cheek way--but I don't think it has anything to do with sound or airflow.
The thing I have pondered about the SP20 is this--how can it be so loud and be so closed in in the back? I never heard of anyone bending the covers out to open up the sound of a 20--but we always seem to do that on the MB's?? How about Bushman's? They are way closed in--should I open them up to let the mystical vapors of blues escape with increased volume?
Another thing I wonder about sometimes--is harping causing me to become anal? I never used to wonder about so many obscure things!
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Patrick Barker
61 posts
May 25, 2008
8:31 AM
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I'm pretty sure I've seen a picture of an special 20 thats been opened up in the back but I forget where. I actually open mine up myself with some pliers, and it doesn't usually turn out looking so good but they play well.
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eharp
31 posts
May 25, 2008
9:37 AM
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patrick- the pliers are fine if you want to be quick and dont really care about the looks. but if you want to be more meticulous about it, use a small ball peen hammer.
take the covers of and set them on a towel or leather or cardboard; something that will have some give to it. then use the hammer. go slow and soft, like you care about the product.
good luck.
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oldwailer
50 posts
May 25, 2008
11:06 AM
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Wow--I've already got three MB combs drying on a rack and about due for a third coat of sealant--now I gotta go through all my harps and open up the covers--when do we get to just *play* these little beasties? I've also been learning about tuning them--so then I'll go through them all and tune them. Actually--making them sound better is always worth the effort. I have a couple of harps that are butt-ugly from my clutzy tamperings--but they sound great!
The next thing I want to get into is fine tuning the reeds for overblows--which I still think is impossible--but I gotta keep trying because it sounds so cool when Adam does it.
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Dduck
8 posts
May 27, 2008
5:44 AM
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The answer I got from Hohner regarding that horizontal bar is that it is for structural support. I know how much plastic can move after it's shot in a mold, so that makes perfect sense.
For opening the back of Special 20's I always make a little cut at the little support legs, with a pair of snips, following that same angle. Then I take a nylon hammer and, very gently, start hammering it over and down. If helps if you have a vise with that angled body or something with a bit of an angle. I cut a piece of hard wood I had laying around at a 30° angle, so the plate sits just right. Keep tapping along the edge, back and forth between the cuts and it'll fold over until it's hemmed up. That not only opens it up quite a bit, but it also will form a structural rib, making it stronger. I guess I don't grip too hard because none of my harps deform after I do that.
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