Philosofy
60 posts
Oct 09, 2008
2:56 PM
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I'm musically challenged. I get the circle of fifths, that's about it. I'm a little tone deaf, and can't tell if I'm playing in the right key or not. I thought I had Bonnie Rait's "Runaway" down cold, but then I found out Norton Buffalo uses something like 5 harps on that solo, and I only used one. I also know Charlie McCoy switches harps on "Orange Blossom Special." How can I know when there is a key change, and when a song goes from 1st position to 2nd (do they even do that in songs?)
Thanks guys!
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oldwailer
231 posts
Oct 09, 2008
4:21 PM
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I'm probably not really qualified to answer the question here--so I'm sure somebody will pop in and answer better--that said, I'll jam my two cents in here anyway.
In Jazz music, "walking the circle" is a fairly common thing--this means that you change keys a lot--usually in the order of the circle of fifths that you mentioned in your question.
In blues and country--and even rock music--changing the keys is not common at all. I only know one song--a Celtic folk song arrangement that starts in A--then goes to C--then goes to D. It's a great arrangement--but I'm sure it could be done just fine in a single key--I know most versions I've heard use one key--(the song is "The Water is Wide.")
There is also the "Salty Dog" Progression--which is named for the song, "Salty Dog," which just seems to have a mysterious key center, at least to me (E A D G) Which looks a lot like the circle of fifths in reverse--or the circle of fourths.
If you're not familiar with Salty Dog, just do a YouTube search for Oldwailer and check out my version. . .see if you can play harp to it. . .
This is just a long-winded approach to saying that I have listened to and watched the Bonnie Raite vid many times--I seriously doubt that they change keys.
My theory is that Norton is just changing positions on different keyed harps to achieve a different sound as he moves through the solo. It's really a great solo too.
I believe that it would be possible to play the song very competently with one harp--but it wouldn't be the same as the way Norton does it. I don't play the song, so I could be wrong in all this verbiage. . .
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gene
19 posts
Oct 09, 2008
4:54 PM
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I have sheet music for Del Shannon's Runaway. The whole song is in the Key of F.
How can you know when the key changes?
If the whole general pitch of a song suddenly changes, the key has most likely changed.
If the interval of pitch beteween notes seems to have changed, the key has probably changed.
Songs don't change positions. On a harmonica, "position" refers to what key harp you're playing in relation to the key of the song. On a guitar, I think position has to do with what section of the fretboard you're playing on.
I don't know much about '50s rock, but late '60s rock and forward is full of key changes...and weird time signatures.
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oldwailer
233 posts
Oct 09, 2008
6:41 PM
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Wow! I didn't know there was rock music recorded after the late 60'S! ;)
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Zhin
34 posts
Oct 09, 2008
7:57 PM
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Philosofy!
Don't beat yourself too hard over this. I still can't figure out songs that switch keys around either and avoid them for now (which probably isn't the best idea, just being honest here)...
Really, don't let it bother you one bit. Don't give up, focus on stuff that doesn't require to wear a harp vest and constantly switch harps around too much for now. You can deal with the those multi-key-changing kinda music later when you can kick ass on one harp-per-song first. ;)
You're doing just fine!
Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2008 7:59 PM
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Preston
59 posts
Oct 10, 2008
6:37 AM
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Boys, we are thinking about this all wrong, and when we get it right, it will improve our playing. I guarantee it.
Everytime we change chords in the 12 bar blues, we are changing keys. It happens in EVERY 12 bar blues song we listen to. For example, a jam in E moves to A for the IV chord, and B for the V chord. We know the roots of these chords are 2 draw, 4blow, and 4draw, and we know the notes on these holes, so (in my crazy mind)it proves the song is changing keys. Granted the 12 bar blues creates tension and begs you to go back to the I chord, but they are key changes none the less.
Now if you wanted to get crazy and look like you were a harp wizard, you could cary an A harp, a D harp, and an E harp with you and switch harps eveytime a chord change comes, playing second position on all of them.
Over the last 6 months, I have been committing myself to switching positions on the harp when a change comes. I don't look for second position riffs that "fit" or "Sound right" in the IV chord, I just jump to some first position riffs. Same with the V chord, I play third position stuff for a bar.
Now we can argue that alot of these riffs can be interchangeable from position to position, and that your not truly switching keys, but it is my opinion that if you start to think outside second position box, ESPECIALLY in the middle of a song, you will be expanding your capabilities and options.
Theres my .02
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Guest
Guest
Oct 10, 2008
9:28 AM
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Preston, I'm not sure I agree with you. The key of a tune refers to the scale it operates in. Just because the chord changes does not mean the key has changed.
A 12 bar chord progression starting on G still operates within the G scale and iv chord (sub dominant) and v chord (dominant) create tension with in that scale.
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Preston
60 posts
Oct 10, 2008
1:31 PM
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O.K., I'll buy that. I'm not a theory guru. Just a revelation I thought I had. Maybe I should stop soaking my harps in whiskey..... Thanks for the clarification.
Anyway, I'm gonna keep playing other position riffs through those chord changes because it seems to be the way my style is developing, and it works for me.
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shaneboylan
53 posts
Oct 10, 2008
1:44 PM
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Thanks for clarifying that for me. A couple of months ago i tried to see if the IV and V key scales worked in their respective chord changes, and concluded that it didn't sound right - now I know why....
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"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window."
-Steven Wright
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bluzlvr
68 posts
Oct 10, 2008
2:35 PM
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You guys might be thinking of modulation. A good example of modulation is George Bensons's "On Broadway"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voNjeUUcdSo
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Preston
61 posts
Oct 10, 2008
3:07 PM
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I believe modulation is correct. Websters on-line dictionary describes "modulating" as:
"to pass from one musical key into another by means of intermediary chords or notes that have some relation to both keys."
The subdominant of the I chord in one key is the same as the root of a key a fifth below it.
I'm as unclear as ever on whether or not you change keys during a chord change. Being unclear is a pretty typical reaction to me studying theory.
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oldwailer
235 posts
Oct 10, 2008
6:24 PM
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On the guitar, where I am a little more educated, I can change scales every time the chord changes. In G, I can start out on a G pentatonic or blues scale and it sounds fine--then it goes to a C--if I change to a C scale--it sounds OK--but I don't really like it much--if I keep doing that--it begins to sound really crappy after a while--like really hackneyed music--not bad--just not good.
If I just take off and fly with The G scale--up & down the neck--it sounds good--but it is best if I stay within certain areas of the scale during the 4 and 5 chords--there don't seem to be any bad notes within the scale--but there are some that are boring at some times. Maybe I'm just not good enough with scales.
I can't explain it any more than that--I'm not trained well in the theory either--I just feel it in my bones and I let my muscle memory take over most of the time. If I get in the way by trying to overthink it--It falls to sh~t.
Just another .02--I guess everybody has a few of those. . .
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Zhin
41 posts
Oct 10, 2008
6:51 PM
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Hey this is some pretty cool eye opening stuff!
I've always wondered about the relation of the chord changes and key changes for the diatonic harp.
Thanks for the info!
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oldwailer
236 posts
Oct 10, 2008
10:24 PM
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I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the chord is made up of the notes of the scale--and the scale is the scale of the key--this means that when the chord changes, you are just into a different area of the scale--not in a new key.
To change keys, you need to change scales--either change positions on the harp you are playing--or change harps. Of course, I think you could change harps and positions and stay in the same key--
Like, if you were playing cross in the key of G (a C harp), you could change to a G harp and play straight--or an A harp and play slant--and you'd still always be in the key of G. This would be beyond my meager skill level, but I think it could be done. . .
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bluzlvr
69 posts
Oct 12, 2008
4:15 PM
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A cool modulation if you play chromatic, is play a C chromatic third position in the key of D, then modulate (hopefully with the band) by merely pushing the button and keeping it in to D sharp.
William Clark does a cool modulation on his instumental "Blowin' Like Hell" third position B flat harp, key of C where he modulates a half step to C sharp, B harp.
Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2008 1:16 PM
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MrVerylongusername
11 posts
Oct 13, 2008
1:53 AM
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Going back to Runaway, I found this on the Harp-L archive posted by Norton himself:
"As to the Runaway solo, That was fun and tough too I was sick as a dog with a 102 fever when I did that session. I didn't tell any of them that cause Hell I was recording with Bonnie Raitt!!!!! I first kept trying it on the chromatic playing dorky stuff reminiscent of the solo on the Del Shannon version...but nobody was buying that...not even me! so they were about to end the session when I said, hey!... let me try one more thing...If this were My record here's what I would do.....Boom! there it was.
Now the midnight special I did with her was another story...twice through the solo with four harps meant eight harp changes on camera...needless to say I was a bit nervous, and when we did it I made it fine through the first solo...pulling the harps up from where I had them in my waist then moving them over under my armpit..but when I got that last change where the tune goes from G# to G, I couldnt find the right harp!!! so I was on My C# harp and the band was in G....Not as sweet an ending as on the record...I'm still not sure what happened to that harp. Now If I sit in with her I just stack them."
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Tuckster
28 posts
Oct 13, 2008
11:34 AM
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If William Clark was playing a "C" chrom and the song is in "D" that would be third position not second. Hey oldwailer, you referred to a position as "slant". I've never heard that term. Is it guitar related?
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oldwailer
244 posts
Oct 13, 2008
5:14 PM
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Hi Tuckster,
Sorry, I slipped--"slant is another name for third position--I originally learned it from a Jon Gindick book.
I think I might have also had the keys wrong in that example--to stay in the key of G in third position (slant) you would not use an A harp--it would be an F harp?? I'm not real conversant with third position yet--that's why the Q marks. . .
Last Edited by on Oct 13, 2008 5:20 PM
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