*Merlin*
3 posts
Nov 19, 2008
5:11 PM
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I am getting more confused each day. If I am playing in the 1st position am I playing a harp in the key of C?
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Aussiesucker
72 posts
Nov 19, 2008
5:36 PM
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If you are playing on a key of C harmonica and you are playing mostly blow notes in the middle of the harp you are in key of c which is 1st position playing. Mostly used for simple folk / childrens melodies. For most blues playing on a key of c harp you will be using the low end draw notes with the 2 hole draw being the root note and you will be playing in the key of g. Some brands of harps ie Suzuki & Lee Oskar usually come with reference charts showing the different key harps and the keys of popular playing positions ie 1 to 4. If you are just starting out you will eventually need to get your head around some theory to understand which key of harp is needed for cross harp (2nd position) playing of the blues. In the meantime dont be too put off and practice some simple 1st position playing in order to get to know your harp. A great melody that can be used for numerous position playing practice is Amazing Grace or Oh Suzanna.
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gene
70 posts
Nov 19, 2008
6:27 PM
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If the song is in C and you're playing a C harp, that's 1st position. If the song is in G and you're playing a C harp, that's 2nd position.
The following links have info on positions. They make it seem harder to understand than it really is, especially the second link listed. It makes it look like rocket science.
http://www.riccardos.org/harmonicas/theory/positions.shtml
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/
This one makes it simple:
http://www.harptabs.com/displayfile.php?ID=131
BTW: The first two 12 bar blues progressions listed in the link above are incorrect. They don't exist.
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*Merlin*
4 posts
Nov 20, 2008
2:49 AM
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Grrreat 2 replys as this explains my confusion.
1st answer says its how you play the C harp that determins your position. The second answer says if the tune is in one key and your harp is in another you are palying 2nd position.
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gene
71 posts
Nov 20, 2008
3:52 AM
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LOL! I hear ya. :D
Well, here's kinda what the first answer says:
"If you ARE playing 'this' position, you need to do 'this.' If you are playing in 'that' position, you need to do 'that.'"
Right. But first, you need to decide what position you want to play in, then choose the right harp for it. (I recommend the third link, above, for info.)
THEN you need to know how to play it.
You said, "The second answer says if the tune is in one key and your harp is in another you are playing 2nd position."
That's kinda correct, but the "2nd position" part of your statement ain't necessarily right. You should have said, "...if the tune is in one key and your harp is in another you are playing in a position other than 1st."
Look at the circle of fifths (that link I mentioned) and I'll give you a couple of examples:
The song is in G, you want to play 1st position. You need a G harp.
The song is in G, you want to play in 2nd position. You need a C harp.
The song is in G, you want to play in 3rd position. You need an F harp.
OK?
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2008 4:36 AM
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*Merlin*
5 posts
Nov 20, 2008
5:36 AM
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Clear as mud.
For right now I am going to play my C harp or my F. I like the tinny sound of the F. I will worry about knowing "Who's on first" after I get all my draws to sound clear.
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Philosofy
84 posts
Nov 20, 2008
7:21 AM
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Let's see if I can muddy the waters a little here, with an example you can play.
Get your C harp (or any harp.) We're going to play "When the Saints go Marching In" in both first position and second position (cross harp.)
For first position, play
4B, 5B, 5D, 6B
4B, 5B, 5D, 6B
4B, 5B, 5D, 6B, 5B, 4B, 5B, 4D The notes are:
C E F G E C E D
Sounds kinda "Old Suzanna"-ish, doesn't it?
Now we'll play the same tune, same harp, but in a different key (G if you're using your C harp.)
2D, 3D, 4B, 4D (I find a little bend on the 4D sounds good)
2D, 3D, 4B, 4D
2D, 3D, 4B, 4D, 3D, 3B, 3D, 3DBEND
G B C D B G B A
You'll notice that the A note is not on the low end of the C harp. You have to get there by bending the 3 Draw down one hold step. Even if you can't handle that final note, you can hear how the song has a more bluesy feel with the draw notes accentuated. (In this example, straight harp has 6 blow notes and 2 draw notes. Cross harp has 6 draw notes and 2 blow notes.) Also note that the 2D and 3B notes on the harp are the same, so you could hit that G note with a 3B as well.
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Oxharp
43 posts
Nov 20, 2008
10:33 AM
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.......................Harp Keys...........................
--1stPosition---------2nd position----------3rd Position
Song Key-------------Cross---------Good For Minor keys
--------C------------------F----------------------Bb
--------D------------------G----------------------C
--------E------------------A----------------------D
--------F------------------Bb---------------------Eb
--------G------------------C----------------------F
--------A------------------D----------------------G
--------B------------------E----------------------A
...................Notes of Resolution.....................
........1 Blow.............2 Draw.................1 Draw
........4 Blow.............3 Blow.................4 Draw
........7 Blow.............6 Blow.................8 Draw
........10 Blow............9 Blow
Hope this helps
Russ
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2008 10:44 AM
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bluzlvr
81 posts
Nov 20, 2008
1:55 PM
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I find this chart to be the handiest. I printed out for my own reference for the 4th to 12th positions that I'm still unfamiliar with.
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/Positions.html
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*Merlin*
6 posts
Nov 20, 2008
2:37 PM
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Phil,
Thanks!
I think that little demonstration has helped me the most so far. I could not get the bend on the end of the 2nd position but I did hear the differance. Just makes me want to learn more. I guess I'm hooked.
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Memo
Guest
Nov 20, 2008
4:27 PM
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The simplest way to explain the difference is that if you're not trying to bend notes the harmonica will be playing in whatever key it is labelled as. If you're bending notes, the harmonica will be 4 steps behind the labelled key. That is, if you're playing a C harp and bending notes, you are in the key of G. A better way to remember is to find out what key the song is in and then grab a harp that is 4 steps ahead of it.
Key of Song Key Of Harp
G C
A D
E A
D G
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Aussiesucker
73 posts
Nov 20, 2008
6:39 PM
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Merlin, have a look at this site where a chart for the major diatonics are listed.
http://leeoskar.com/major.html
The keys of Harps along with the music keys are shown for the most popular playing positions. For your needs, for now, all you really need to be aware of is 1st Position
( straight harp & the key of the harp) & 2nd Position (cross harp for most blues playing).
With Adams lessons and downloads of tracks the keys are always given. For learning, providing you are not playing with backing, your C harp is a good choice. Get to know it real well and in time you might even be looking for tunes to play in 12th position!
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gene
73 posts
Nov 20, 2008
7:47 PM
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Merlin, you seem to have been satisfied with one of the answers, but I'm not so sure you really get it. Judging by your original question, "If I am playing in the 1st position am I playing a harp in the key of C?", I'd say you don't understand the definition of "positions." Let me try one more time:
"1st position" means playing a harp that's in the same key that the song is in. If the song is in Ab and you're playing an Ab harp, that's first position. If the song is in Ab and you're playing a harp that is in some other key, you're playing some other position. Read that paragraph on the right of linked that circle of fifths up there to figure it out from there.
Last Edited by on Nov 20, 2008 7:49 PM
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Anon
Guest
Nov 20, 2008
9:22 PM
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Don't get too strung up on positions. Its oft quoted by harp players that tunes always sound better in cross harp & whilst many do it is not always the case. You need to adapt the tune to the best fit and often you cannot beat 1st position. I have CDs of a famous harp player that plays just everything in cross harp and whilst the majority I like, some of his stuff does IMHO sounds better when I hear it in straight harp. You need to pick and choose, adapt, know both & more and for blues cross harp is a must.
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gene
75 posts
Nov 20, 2008
9:38 PM
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1st position is also called "straight harp."
2nd position is also called "cross harp."
3rd position is also called "slant harp" or "draw harp."
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Trueblue
Guest
Nov 20, 2008
11:17 PM
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Have a look at the web page titled 'The Diatonic Harmonica Reference' at http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/
It has a lot of information that could / should help you.
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bluzlvr
94 posts
Dec 18, 2008
12:54 PM
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As far as modes on the harp are concerned, I've been learning and practicing my modes on a C harp starting with mixolydian (2nd position), dorian (3rd position), aeolian (4th position)etc. I was inspired by Jason Ricci's lesson on YT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5psEaupC8g&feature=channel_page
I didn't use any tabs, I just learned them on guitar, and copied them on the harp using this online chart as a reference:
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/myquill/Positions.html
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Andrew
29 posts
Dec 18, 2008
1:01 PM
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Merlin, if you are still confused -
if you pick up any (standard) harp and cover a few holes with your mouth and blow, you'll get a major chord and you'll be playing in first position. You'll be playing in the key of the harp, the one stamped on it. And if you stick to the middle octave you'll be able to play a scale in that key, so if it's an F harp, you'll be playing in F major, if it's a Bb harp you'll be playing in Bb, if a C harp, you'll be playing in the key of C, etc.
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2008 1:02 PM
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tookatooka
54 posts
Dec 18, 2008
2:04 PM
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I think Merlin fainted - information overload.
I know how you feel Merlin, don't get too concerned. If only a little bit of information sticks now you'll be OK. It will all resolve itself in time, just have fun with your harp and you'll pick uo bits and pieces as you go along. I don't know a great deal of the theory but it doesn't stop me from wailing like the best of them.
Whoops! just realised this post was started some time ago.
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2008 2:05 PM
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bitterbug
8 posts
Dec 18, 2008
4:18 PM
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Never hurts to resurrect a post like this :)
I'd been looking over the circle of fifths this week and the more information the better :)
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Andrew
35 posts
Dec 19, 2008
2:44 PM
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Do people have trouble with "circle of fifths" because they've never played a keyboard?
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mr_so&so
14 posts
Dec 20, 2008
7:38 AM
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If anyone is looking for harmonica tabs of major and blues scales in the 12 positions, Adam has a free download on this site:
http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/4989005-harmonica-positions-pdf
It also explains the circle of fifths w.r.t. harmonica positions.
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