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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Cadillac Records
Cadillac Records
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DanP
16 posts
Dec 01, 2008
8:44 PM
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Has anybody on the forum seen the movie Cadillac Records yet? It's about Chess Records with Adrien Brody as Leonard Chess. I have not had a chance to see it yet but I've read on the internet that Little Walter and James Cotton are characters in the film as well as Muddy Waters and Chuck Berry. It should be an interesting flick.
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RyanMortos
3 posts
Dec 02, 2008
8:53 AM
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Cool, glad you pointed this out Ill keep an eye out for it. Not sure I would have heard of it otherwise. Doesnt look as though it releases is the US till December, 5th. I wonder if this is a wide release or just certain theaters. Cant say Im excited with the entire cast including hip-hop/rap artists they put together to 'act' main parts.
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DanP
18 posts
Dec 02, 2008
9:13 AM
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It has already had a limited release in the U.S. and goes into wide release on Dec.5th. Columbus Short(who I've never heard of before) plays Little Walter. Jeffrey Wright,who I think is a great actor,plays Muddy Waters.
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Fredrider51
28 posts
Dec 07, 2008
11:26 AM
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just got back i really liked the movies
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bluzlvr
88 posts
Dec 07, 2008
2:27 PM
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I just got back from seeing it. It was fun to watch, even if it was not completely accurate. (It does say that it is BASED on a true story.) Jeffrey Wright does a pretty good job playing Muddy Waters, in my opinion one of the most charismatic musicians ever...
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isaacullah
2 posts
Dec 14, 2008
2:36 PM
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Just saw it last night... Pretty entertaining, and mildly accurate. Many of the true events that were portrayed were rearranged chronologically, many major players left out (no Rice Miller? no Phil Chess? come on!), and many aspects were sensationalized. Plus there is no info that I know of that indicates Little Walter ever killed anyone... that part was pure BS... I really loved the guy who played Howlin' Wolf! He made the movie worth it, and I here that he is the only one of the actors who actually bothered to really learn how to play the Harp. Apparently Kim Wilson overdubs all the "little walter" parts...
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Anonymous
Guest
Dec 15, 2008
6:43 AM
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I got a little gift from a friend. Any hint of an issue and it's gone without hesitation. This is an MBH exclusive. Adam of course, may understandably delete this message.
http://www.harmonicapros.com/music-tools/
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mojojojo
6 posts
Dec 23, 2008
6:19 AM
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Yes a nice film with a fair amount of blues in it. I agree that the guy who played Howlin Wolf was great. He could do a whole biography film.
Cedric started off doing a "Willie Dixon" voice, but after the intro he went back to his regular voice! Chuck Berry was fun too.
Blues harmonica players will like it.
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MrVerylongusername
86 posts
Jan 05, 2009
7:02 AM
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Just seen it. Very mixed feelings about it really. If they'd not used real people's names, and made it clear that this was a mixture of fact and fiction (as in Dreamgirls) then I would have enjoyed it more. I'm saddened by the fact that a lot of people will watch it and believe that Walter was a gun-happy, cold blooded killer, that chess records only recorded 5 artists, that Phil Chess never existed and that Leonard Chess and Etta James were an item.
I don't think any movie has done such a disservice to the memory of real people since U571.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 7:02 AM
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kudzurunner
227 posts
Jan 05, 2009
8:15 AM
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I disagree with you, VL. I don't think it did a disservice to anybody. Read Tony Glover (et. al.)'s book on Walter; he was violent, a scrapper. The film captured all of his youth, energy, creativity, pride, and self-destructive edge. ALL movies condense, distill, and use representative examples; this one took pains to make clear that there was no one "exemplary" Chess artist--i.e., one kind of "black bluesman" (or woman), but a series of highly differentiated individuals with distinct aesthetics and ethical orientations. Wolf and Muddy were marvelously distinct; Chuck Berry was the middle-class nerd looking to rebel (his parents were both schoolteachers); Walter was hot-tempered. Beyonce as Etta James was a surprisingly good actress, if of course not quite the soul-goddess that James herself was and is.
As for the Chess (non) brothers: sure, the filmakers took liberties. They were also much kinder to Leonard Chess than they might have been. They could have portrayed him, from an Afrocentric perspective, as a predator, a la Sturdyvant and Irvin in August Wilson's MA RAINEY'S BLACK BOTTOM. Instead, they gave him a not-quite-consummated romance with Etta James. It made perfect dramatic sense, given her (well-evoked) problems with her absent white father.
I thought the soundtrack was a grand slam: pretty much as good as it gets. I've more than once spoken about the over-heavy hand of Little Walter's influence in people like Kim Wilson, but in this case, Kim was THE guy to execute what needed to be executed, and my guitar-man Bill Sims, Jr. from New York helped out, too. No other blues film or documentary that I've seen gets at the heart of this particular period of blues history nearly as well, conjuring up a kind of joyous, scrapping, ambition-driven and ambition-realizing euphoria that came upon this bunch of escaped black southerners in Chicago-land during the late 40s and early 1950s.
The one bit of authorial liberty that bothered me, actually, was the question of Geneva, Muddy's wife. If I'm not wrong, Muddy married Geneva much later; she was a young woman, he was an old guy. He wasn't the woman he met when he'd just arrived in Chicago; she was a late life sweetheart. Or at least that's what I remember from Robert Palmer's DEEP BLUES.
And yes: I think that the English actor who plays Howlin' Wolf was the best thing in the movie--scary, charismatic, believable, human. And a fine harp player.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 8:16 AM
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MrVerylongusername
87 posts
Jan 05, 2009
8:54 AM
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It really was the shooting scene that bothered me most (and I have read the Scott Dirks / Tony Glover book).
I understand what they were trying to do in the movie - to show that there are parallels between the bluesman of the 50s and the gangsta rappers of the 21st century, but Walter never killed anyone and yet many people will leave the cinema thinking he did. In my mind that's a defamation. If they're going to make that point, then IMHO better to have invented a truly ficticious character to do it. The film managed to portray Walter's self destruction perfectly without that scene; I just think in this case artistic license overstepped the mark. Maybe I'm too precious about my heros
I agree with you about the music though - awesome playing from Kim Wilson.
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kudzurunner
228 posts
Jan 05, 2009
11:11 AM
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Fair enough. Each new generation retells the old stories with a new valence and tweaks them to make them relevant. What may have seeped into the movie, in LW's case and as you suggested, was a hip-hop sensibility that said, "Hey, you thought the blues was some tired old slave-era s--t that your grandma listened to, but these young bloods were badass." Certainly that's the LW we got in the movie--a guy who is cousin to Ice Cube and that whole straight-outta-Compton cop-killa thing. Or, more precisely, a progenitor of that sort of attitude. NOT an Uncle Tom, but also not quite in control--the way that Howlin' Wolf, in the film, is always completely and amazingly grounded, on message, on point, in control, nobody's fool.
I'll be honest: I thought the film's portrait of Little Walter was immensely attractive. Part of what made it attractive was that I know Paul Osher's comment, in Sandra Tooze's book about Muddy, that "everybody carried a gun," and that disagreements within the band often left everybody pointing a gun at everybody else. Did LW actually shoot some guy down south who was pretending to be him? Maybe not. But Albert Gianquinto (sp??) or one of Muddy's guitarists shot somebody and did time. To me, the LW portrait was well within tolerance, as a machinist might put it, even if the particular dramatic event that bothers you didn't actually happen. I'd certianly be interested to know what others thought of Walter's portrait.
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 11:12 AM
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MrVerylongusername
88 posts
Jan 05, 2009
11:43 AM
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I saw a post by Scott Dirks on another forum - he was also upset by that scene. As he put it, Walter still has living relatives. They must be very hurt.
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KC69
31 posts
Jan 05, 2009
2:45 PM
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Thanks for the comments: I'm lookinf forward to seeing the movie( I now assume through rental ). I had the pleasure of meeting James Cotton this year at the bluesfest in Granville Ohio. He took his time to ask about my playing and even about me personally. It was a great priviledge and I can't wait to see the movie.
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isaacullah
17 posts
Jan 05, 2009
6:42 PM
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Okay, I'll put in some of my thoughts on the Little Walter portrayal in the movie. I too have read Glover et al.'s "Blues with a Feeling", and about halfway through John Collis's book "The Story of Chess Records". I've also read several other blues biographies and histories... Okay, now for my commentary: I think Adam is right in that the film makers portrayal of Walter was "immensely attractive", and that VL is correct in that the fictitious "murder" event may be construed as defamatory, especially by Walter's living relatives.
Now, that all being said, can we definitively say that Walter never killed anyone? No. But I can also not definitively say that about my grandmother either. Could Walter have killed some one? Sure. There also is a little circumstantial evidence to support this: as Adam points out everyone carried weapons, and Walter definitely did have a hot temper. He certainly resorted to violence in some situations, as did many other musicians at the time. There certainly were lots of LW impersonators, and I'm sure he tussled with a few of them.
Now back to my metaphor: While one could never definitive prove Walter ever murdered anyone (just as one cannot prove one's grandmother never murdered anyone), one must also admit that, for example, OJ Simpson was never definitively proved to have murdered anyone either! Now I'm not comparing Walter to OJ, but think about this: If OJ was portrayed as a murderer in a biopic of his life, would you protest that as defamatory? On the other hand, if your grandmother was portrayed as murderer in a biopic of her life, you would certainly protest that! Why the different reaction? Well, while there may not be enough direct evidence in either case to prove or disprove murder (beyond a reasonable doubt), there is sufficient circumstantial evidence in the OJ case to convince the general populace of his guilt. Same for SugKnight, same for Al Capone, etc.
Now you take all the circumstantial evidence we have from Walter's life: He was impulsive had a short fuse, a hot temper, and was prone to violence. He carried weapons. He hung around a crowd of folks for whom violence and the occasional vendetta murder were not foreign concepts. He drank heavily and this affected his judgement. So, is it completely inconceivable that he ever killed anyone? No. Is is kind of possible? Yes. Is is probable? Maybe. Did he definitely do it? Maybe, maybe not.
So: What does it matter if he killed someone or not? Leadbelly killed someone, and it hasn't tarnished his reputation at all. In fact, Leadbelly would never have been found by Lomax if he wasn't in prison serving his time. And no blues enthusiast would write him off as one of their idols either. So that means we wouldn't write Walter off either. So the only group of people I see as potentially being rightfully hurt by this portrayla are Walter's family.
Okay, now for the rest of the Little Walter portrayal: I thought they definitely did a good job showing his personality, and his gradual rise and then tortuous plummet from stardom. I think the actor who portrayed him should have learned him some more about playing blues harp. The scenes of the band recording in the studio were generally goos, but the LW actor's horrible "Harmonica Playing" pantomime really let on that those scenes were overdubbed. While intellectually, I know that they would have to be overdubbed, it would have been nice if I could have let my "suspension of disbelief" kick in, and pretend, for the moment, that the band was really laying down those tracks as I watched! Instead, all I could do was look at the that guy clowning the harp and go "Man! LW wouldn't play like that! Hell, even I wouldn't play like that!" Now when they shot the scene of Howlin' Wolf's band recording--Man!--I sure believed they were layin' down right then and there! That actor really lived his role! I just wished the LW actor could have done the same.
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2009 6:52 PM
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MrVerylongusername
92 posts
Jan 06, 2009
8:08 AM
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Ok I take the point. Yes it COULD have happened, but it didn't. End of. The comparison with OJ is flawed. With OJ there were bodies, a crime scene, motive, and evidence. Walter's life has been researched meticulously (not least by Glover, Dirks and Gaines) as has Muddy's. And whilst, as Adam mentioned, plenty of gunplay and at least one other murder have come to light, nothing has ever indicated anything this serious by LW himself. Now SBWII, that's another matter. Plenty of dark rumours about him... (but plenty of lawyers waiting to pounce, so best leave him out of the movie completely)
With the caveat that some scenes were created for dramatic purposes, then it was an OK film. Not Earth shatteringly great, but a lot better than most of Hollywood's recent output. But if that disclaimer was there, it was in very small print at the end of the credits when the cinemas would have been empty.
My first post said I had mixed feelings. I totally agree, the LW character was also, for me, the most engaging character, acted and written well (even the disputed scene). Columbus Short was great. Ok his harp playing was a little comical, but I believe he sang "My Babe" himself and I, for one, though he did a good job.
The self-destruction of LW was played so well that the fiction was unnecessary. I am firmly of the belief that it was only written in to underline a subtext that was pretty blatant anyway. That's just lazy dumbing down. Why pick on Walter? - because Walter died young; with relatives close enough to be proud of him, but distant enough to keep the movie studio's lawyers happy.
So my feelings remain mixed. A whole bunch of people, who previously had never heard of Little Walter will now remember him as that crazy, harmonica playing drunk that shot someone in the head in cold-blood.
The film even ends with a (thankfully accurate) epilogue that just reinforces the viewers' belief that everything they have seen is the truth.
Now would that matter? would it diminish Walter's legacy? maybe not, it might even stimulate renewed interest in him and that's a good thing.
I just think the real story would have been dramatic enough and Hollywood's continuing obsession with rewriting history really irks me.
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kudzurunner
229 posts
Jan 06, 2009
8:45 AM
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Although Little Walter, in the film, shoots his "competition" at point-blank range, I don't believe that we know for sure that the shot man dies. There's no funeral scene. Walter shoots somebody in cold blood and then flees with the band. Why all this talk about murder, defamation, and the like? Was a murder actually committed in the film, in that scene? What proof is offered?
Really what we should be arguing about is whether Little Walter ever shot anybody angrily, at point blank rage.
As for whether Little Walter has living relatives who were hurt by the depiction: people find all sorts of things to be hurt by. That what the blues are about. Some of the things, looked at dispassionately, are legitimate; some are not. All of them FEEL legitimate, however. The film found a pretty good balance, it seems to me, between uplifting its principal characters and revealing their flaws. Let's remember that the film's Little Walter attempts, however awkwardly, to minister to the pain and frustration of Geneva, Muddy's wife in a bedside scene. The film offers us an edgy, sometimes out-of-control, but immensely creative artist who can't quite control his temper or his needs and ends up dying too young, and tragically. Is that depiction so terribly out of line with who LW actually was, and is it thus so clearly defamatory?
Last Edited by on Jan 06, 2009 8:53 AM
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Tuckster
67 posts
Jan 06, 2009
10:05 AM
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Couldn't find the film anywhere in my area,guess I'll have to see it on video. I'm rereading "Deep Blues" by Robert Palmer. The early bluesmen were no strangers to violence. Son House served time for killing a man in self defense. I believe Muddy's murdering guitar player was Pat Hare.It could be the shooting incident really happened,just not to LW.
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LIP RIPPER
15 posts
Jan 06, 2009
11:07 AM
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I REALLY ENJOYED IT AND WHO KNOWS, MAYBE THE GUY NEVER DIED. LET'S FACE IT COPS THEN DIDN'T CARE ABOUT A BLACK MAN BEING KILLED.
NET FLIX HAS IT AVAILABLE.
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kudzurunner
231 posts
Jan 06, 2009
12:51 PM
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Yes, Pat Hare is the guy I was thinking of.
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Bb
32 posts
Jan 06, 2009
5:24 PM
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Pat Hare – he committed double homicide, in Minneapolis no less. Shot his girlfriend and then a cop who came to the scene. Also wrote a song called "I'm Gonna Murder My Baby." FUN STUFF! (Bob said while quietly peeing in his pants.)
-Bob
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Honkin On Bobo
44 posts
Mar 23, 2009
10:50 AM
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I know given when this thread started, that this is old news, but I just saw the flick, and if bumpin this back to the top means that a few more people wind up renting it, well that's a good thing.
It is an excellent movie, especially so for anybody who loves the blues or harp. Posters above have done an excellent job of discussing it's merits, so I won't repeat them.
On the subject of the Little Walter shooting scene: I didn't know much about LW's life prior to viewing the film, but given my experience with watching "based on a true story" genre movies, I always take anything I see in them with a grain of salt. When the flick was over, I wondered, "Did that actually happen?" Thanks to the MBH Forum I have my quick answer (is this site the gift that keeps on giving or what?).
Even if it had been true, I wouldn't have thought any less of LW. It has to be viewed in the context of the times and the economic opportunities afforded those guys. The Fake LW was diminishing LW's franchise and taking food off his plate and money out of his wallet. One could argue that he might as well have been robbing LW at gunpoint.
From a dramatic perspective, the scene totally worked for me. I was expecting LW to hang a left hook on the guy, with the requisite ensuing brawl. For me it was a "WHOA!" moment. I loved it.
My two favorite fun facts came during the scrolling epilogue:
Chuck Berry sued the Beach Boys for Surfin' USA.
Successfully.
Willie Dixon sued Led Zeppelin.
Successfully, but they didn't say for what song(s). Does anybody know the answer to that? I thought Led did some direct covers on the early albums, and I always assumed they paid whatever royalties were due.
Cadillac Records - Rent it (or buy it). You'll like it.
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MrVerylongusername
206 posts
Mar 23, 2009
10:51 AM
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Whole Lotta Love.
Listen to Muddy's "You Need Love"
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 10:54 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
45 posts
Mar 23, 2009
11:04 AM
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MrVLUN,
Got it.
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snakes
139 posts
Mar 23, 2009
4:18 PM
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Finally got to see the movie last night. The actor who played Howlin' Wolf was awesome!
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Philosofy
165 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:14 PM
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FYI, go to YouTube and search for Led Zeppelin rip off. Its pretty enlightening.
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RyanMortos
112 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:33 PM
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I agree that the guy that played Howlin' Wolf did a very good job. Probably the only aspect my girlfriend and I seen as a plus. Overall, I found this movie mediocre. I'd recommend to anyone to check it out before buying it. Though, I should say I'm quite critical of film. Studying film in college does that to you, I think. That and watching lots of movies & knowing the improvements that could be done. The best part about it is that someone brought blues to theater masses.
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~Ryan
PA
Ryan's Tube - Containing [0] uploads and counting...
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Honkin On Bobo
47 posts
Mar 24, 2009
8:25 AM
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Philosofy,
Did what you suggested and found a 10 minute YT on all of Zeps "transgressions". All I can say is WOW!!! I knew there had been some allegations, I just never knew it was so widespread, and in some cases so very blatant. The "Whole Lotta Love" "You Need Love" comparison (found them side by side on a separte YT) is so obvious.
It's strange, in many instances Zep did a great "take" on the original, all they had to do was credit the writer. I know "when it comes to money" things tend to get weird ("when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro" - Hunter S. Thompson), but geez.
I have to admit. Page comes off looking like a real S___thead. God, and I loved (and still do) that band too.
As an aside, and ironically funny, the guy who made the 10 min YT, apparently was using cuts from the original various tracks to show their similarity, until the music Nazis (read: copyright holders) made him desist. So he now has other (classical?) music playing in the background. In effect, the guy blowing the whistle on people for stealing music was....advised he was stealing music.
Last Edited by on Mar 24, 2009 8:26 AM
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DanP
53 posts
Mar 24, 2009
3:15 PM
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Howlin' Wolf could've also sued Led Zeppelin but I'm not sure if he did or not. Zeppelin took his song, Killing Floor, merged it with The Lemon Song (on their second album), without any songwriting credit to the Wolf. As for Cadillac Records, I thought it was a very good flick but not quite excellent. I enjoyed the first two-thirds of the movie the most. When the film got to the 1960s and the Etta James episode, I thought the movie became a little too melodramatic. But Beyonce did do a good job of playing Etta. I think someone on this thread expressed displeasure with rappers playing blues people but I think that if it turns on more of today's young people to the blues, it's a good thing.
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Preston
256 posts
Apr 06, 2009
5:23 AM
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I just rented this yesterday on a cold, rainy, and windy Sunday afternoon with nothing to do outside.
Man, that was a great movie.
As I've said before, I was never really into the blues until I started playing Harp, so alot of this stuff was new to me.
I watched the deleted scenes and extras on the DVD, and Phil Chess was in the movie, however his small parts were cut from the theatrical version.
Also, in a deleted scene it shows one of Mudd's replacement harp players being shot, and Cedric's (Willie Dixon) narrative voice says "The one thing about harp players is they usually don't end well." .......now I'm rethinking this hole harmonica thing. Damn movies.
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mr_so&so
74 posts
Apr 06, 2009
6:40 AM
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So it is on video now! Yesterday I asked at our local video store if they had it and they couldn't even find it listed in their database. Guess I'll start looking around some more. Looking forward to seeing it.
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jonsparrow
56 posts
Apr 06, 2009
9:56 AM
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psst...you can download it...iv watched the movie a million times allready. i love it.
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