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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Tongue Blockers or Fish Puckers?
Tongue Blockers or Fish Puckers?
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bitterbug
5 posts
Dec 16, 2008
8:59 PM
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Depending on which guide I'm reading (or watching) at any given time, there seems to be a division in people who tongue block and those who purse their lips up tightly (fish pucker :P )
So I was wondering what the division is like on here.
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KC69
16 posts
Dec 16, 2008
9:15 PM
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bitterbug: Its midnight in Ohio and I'm still here working on both. I'm better at pucker block ,but working hard on tongue blocking the song " Easy " by Walter Horton. Takes a lot of vibrato, but that helps to keep my tone!
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Andrew
21 posts
Dec 16, 2008
9:46 PM
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I don't understand tongue blocking, so I'm starting with the pucker, then maybe one day I'll try out tongue-blocking as a subsidiary technique.
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cloud1i
Guest
Dec 16, 2008
11:03 PM
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Started with pucker, doing 100% tongue block now. What I find most difficult is swtiching embrochure from TB to pucker when I want to do successive emphasis on one single notes and switching back to TB when doing a fast riff.
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Preston
Guest
Dec 17, 2008
5:19 AM
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I would say I play 90% Lip Block, and 10% tongue block. I use tongue block only when I want to do the tongue slap effect. I can get all the tone I need from Lip Blocking. And I do call it lip blocking, because there is absolutely no puckering whatsoever in my embachure. My jaw is dropped wide, my upper lip covers most of the top plate of the harp, and the harp itself is tilted up at about a 45degree angle. The only thing blocking out the adjacent holes are the sides of my bottom lip.
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Jeff
167 posts
Dec 17, 2008
8:04 AM
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Bottomline: technique is only means to an end. Music is simply making a good sound. How you do it isn't as important as finally achieving that end.
That said, I lip pursed for years (used TB for octaves) until I came to terms and recognized the fact that the elusive 10% I couldn't replicate when hearing Big Walter, Cotton, Sonny Boy, Magic Dick, Guyger, Gruenling, Kim Wilson, Little Walter, etc. all came down to the colors, textures, percussion and effects they were achieving with tongue-blocking.
And it was that last 10% of their sound that really drew me to the harmonica to begin with. And so I put in the long hours of relearning how to play the harp.
You can achieve awesome comparable tone lip pursing. So the divide does not fall there in my opinion. The divide I believe falls in the size of the sound palette. I probably have atleast 30% more colors and textures now added to my arsenal along with the great tongue effects that you hear Little Walter, Guyger, Magic Dick, Gruenling using: flutter tongue/trill, pulls, octave pull-slaps, tongue-warbles, etc.
You'll hear people all of the time talk about how they chose pucker because it was easier/more intuitive. Let me make clear that pucker is easier and quicker to learn for virtually everybody, lol! There's almost instant gratification when learning with pucker. Being an artist I compare it to painting with acrylic paints. Working with acrylic paint is far more accessible, quicker and you can recreate the look of oil paint almost exactly. But there is always that 5-10% of nuances with the look of oil paint that make the masters put in the years of extra hard work to master it.
Tongue-blocking takes a long frustrating time to coordinate your tongue and throat muscles to move in such rapid and precise ways. Daily training my throat and not my tongue to bend left my throat muscles sore for many weeks. To this day, after very long sessions my tongue still aches after the intense workout it gets tb'ing. But I believe the payoff is worth it particularly if you play a lot of traditional acoustic playing. The monster chords you get before every single note and the percussiveness gives you a larger more aggressive sound than the more soaring horn like sound of puckering. I definitely don't preach tb'ing as the only "true" way to play harmonica. But after learning both techniques I would say tb'ing has far more advantages if you're *only playing Chicago style blues*.
Preston, from my experience from SPAH, Barrett workshops, playing out, etc. I think stating 90% of playing is pucker is not very accurate. Virtually all of the well known players I've met Rick Estrin, Kim Wilson, Mark Hummel, Guyger, Gruenling, etc. tongue-block. Even Jason Ricci who predominantly puckers, tongue-blocks on straight-away Chicago Blues like Blues Penitentiary.
Puckering has its advantages for extreme speed in jazzy or Sonny Terry style playing. And regardless of what Gruenling says I think overblows are way easier and better controlled with puckering. So I think there's more potential in style of playing with puckering as transforming your instrument to become fully chromatic is far easier. I also think you can get a more open soaring/crying 4 draw bend when puckering.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 10:01 AM
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Preston
Guest
Dec 17, 2008
9:19 AM
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No, I said "I" play 90% / 10%. I wasn't talking about everybody else. Bitterbug asked what the division was like "on here", so I assumed he was asking for all of us here on the forumn what we did.
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Jeff
168 posts
Dec 17, 2008
9:22 AM
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Sorry Preston. I breezed through your response too quickly. Outside of using tongue-blocked octaves, I'm assuming the majority of people on this board lean toward predominantly pucker-playing for single notes from the hundreds of posts I've read.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 9:41 AM
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kudzurunner
196 posts
Dec 17, 2008
9:46 AM
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This is a good, perennial question. Use the search engine; I think you'll find an earlier thread on this. Try "Gussow" and "tongue blocking" since I know I defended myself against the charge, so to speak, that I was a lip-purser.
I use both techniques, constantly. Unless you TB, you can't play octaves, and I consider octaves a non-negotiable, essential element of any harp player's toolkit. But, on the other hand, I overblow, and everything I know about the technical capacities of today's players tells me that it's simply not possible to overblow smoothly, at high speed, while tongue blocking. If there's one guy out there who can prove me wrong, he's the exception that proves the rule.
Lip pursing (LP, I'll call it) enables a lighter touch and thinner tone, if that's what you want. My sense is that many country harp players (Charlie McCoy, etc.) use LP most of the time.
Since overblowing is far more challenging, even borderline impossible, for those who TB everything, TB technique tends to pull TBers toward the past--towards Chicago blues, for example, where the TB technique is pretty much essential. Most pro and semipro harp players who work in bands that cover Little Walter, Muddy Waters, Jimmy Rogers, Big Walter Horton, and other classic blues players from the 1950s do a lot of TB. If they don't, in fact, they don't get "the sound," as I'm fond of calling it. But "the sound"--a particular sort of heavy-attack amped-up sound, often achieved with the help of an Astatic or Green Bullet mic and a Bassman or other old tube amp, is only one kind of sound that a contemporary harp player might choose. My own approach is in a love-hate relationship with "the sound." I'm as much of a tone-monster as any player I know, but I also think it's our responsibility to struggle against the ghosts of Christmas Past (or blues harp past) and do something new that reflects our own very different historical moment. To the extent that TB has helped me develop a strong sound, I'm a fan. To the extent that TB becomes a subcultural ideology--"full-time TB is THE way"--I'm against it. Know the tradition, but innovate: that's my creed.
As I wrote in another thread, my harp playing was transformed, greatly strengthened, when I added a major does of TB to my trick-bag.
My recommendation to today's harp players: learn how to LP, TB, and overblow.
And of course keep asking great questions.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 9:56 AM
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Jeff
169 posts
Dec 17, 2008
10:12 AM
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As usual, you hit it on the head, Adam.
Most of the technique war amongst the harp community is because such a massive portion of harp players are only on the focused quest for "the sound" (as you call it) they hear the Chicago legends exhibiting. And so many openly state that they're not concerned with bringing innovation to the harmonica's history. Most often it's just a
"Dude, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I just want to sound like Little Walter/Sonny Boy/Popper for a few songs that my band does at the local pub. Just give me the techniques to do that."
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 10:16 AM
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Blackbird
18 posts
Dec 17, 2008
11:25 AM
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I'm still in the lip purser group. I want to learn to do some tongue blocking, but it's been slower for me to learn than lip pursing.
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chromaticblues
Guest
Dec 17, 2008
11:55 AM
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I believe adam is right about overblowing and overdrawing(although I haven't noticed any examples of adam overdrawing) being done by lip pursing. I can overblow the blow six on a "c" harp tongue blocking, but only at the end of a lick, not really while playing. I learned how to do it trying to buildup my tongue blocking technique. As far as what technique to use? I think everyone should look at it this way. Learn riffs using both techniques. Once you start getting good at it you will notice how good tongue blocking sounds. That doesn't mean I recomend anyone being one of these people that say "I tongue block 100% of the time. That does not make you a better player. It makes you limited! Most people start off lip pursing and never get as good at the blocking method. They both are great ways of playing and if you learn both, overblowing and overdrawing.That will make playing the harmonica more fun!!
I've been playing for 22 years and consider myself a student of the harmonica. I know no one can learn everything. There will always be someone out there doing different stuff on the harp. That is a good thing! We shouldn't divide into camps over techniques. When you do that you stop learning!
Learn and have fun!!!
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snakes
53 posts
Dec 17, 2008
11:59 AM
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I've been playing about a year and have started to get some formal lessons from a good teacher named Grant Dermody who supports my efforts of gaining information from all avenues including this forum. I originally learned to play using the pucker method. Grant has me learning TB'ing with the mindset Adam mentioned whereby a harp player should have as many techniques in his or her bag of tricks as possible. Another selling point Grant makes besides the obvious tone aspect already mentioned is the fact that TB'ing will give a harmonica player a great way to get that rhythmic chord to single note swing-like effect. He feels that this is natural result of learning to TB/Tongue slap, etc. I must admit that I lack a certain coordination with my tongue that I'm trying to overcome through practice and it feels like a bit of a step backward. I am confident that for me this is a good direction as it will facilitate learning different genres of harmonica songs.
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bitterbug
6 posts
Dec 17, 2008
12:41 PM
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A lot of great and informative answers :)
Glad I found this forum.
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bluzlvr
92 posts
Dec 17, 2008
2:02 PM
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It's interesting to me to read that it's intuitive to start out lip pursing, because I started out intuitively tongue blocking, and I have to switch to LPing when I want to do blow bends and certain articulations and of course when trying to attain the (for me)still illusive overblow. Even when I'm playing first position on the high notes, I'll switch back and forth from LPing to TBing.
Maybe because I'm a "natural" TBer is the reason I still can't overblow....
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Tryharp
43 posts
Dec 18, 2008
6:05 AM
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I tongue block, 95%
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shaneboylan
60 posts
Dec 18, 2008
6:17 AM
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I invariably alternate between the 3 main ways of playing - TB/LP/UB.
Normally i find myself U-blocking for fast single note runs because I find it very easy, but since OB notes are hard to hit when playing like that - I'm having to force myself not to do this. I just see it as part of the learning process.
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chromaticblues
Guest
Dec 19, 2008
8:51 AM
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I posted a bit about the tongue blocking and lip pursing thing a couple days ago and last light I realized I made mistake in saying I haven't heard any recorded examples of Adam Gussow playing overdraws. The song "Picking up the pieces of my life" on the living on the river CD, he plays in third position with a "D" harp (with is in the key of "E"). This is a perfect example of why people that say overblows and overdraws don't sound right in blues! He slides from the six draw to the nine draw overdraws it then then unbends it and plays the eight blow, eight draw, seven blow, six draw. I don't remember how he worked down to the four draw, but six blow, five draw then four draw is the most common way.
This little lick is so sweet and yet so difficult! I fiddled around with gapping my harp tring to get it for about half an hour then bang!! I had it!!!
For all the people that don't know what I'm talking about: try bending the nine draw on a "A" or "Bb" harp just like you were trying to bend the three draw down a half note. The difference is the overdraw bends the note up half a note above the highest pitched reed in that hole. So in thrid position a overdrawn nine hole is the minor fifth of that scale. For those of you that don't know what that means it's the same note as the draw four bent down when playing in scond position. One of the coolest notes on the harp! Oh and I almost forgot if you don't lip purse very well and and learn overblows and overdraws youu'lll never be able to play IT!!
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Chris Jones
28 posts
Feb 21, 2009
3:47 PM
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I swore off tongue blocking a long time ago but now see the need to learn it. Like Jeff, I'm seeking "the sound". Are there any bad habits to watch out for when learning it? I've seen a few pieces of advice to use the very tip like it's going to touch something hot, when I try this it's very ackward.
What I'm finding better luck with is using more of the side of tongue or curling the tip a little and using top of tongue.
I don't want to break bad habits later so what do you tongue blocker do? I aplogize in advance if I should have started new topic.
Thanks
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BluTed
10 posts
Feb 21, 2009
11:26 PM
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Use TB a lot for certain effects only, such as octaves or the occasional 3-4 hole instant jump. But I have this little notch in the middle of my lower lip which makes lip blocking a natural mode for me. Chord to single note shuffle transitions are a piece of cake for me - one of the things I do best. Can also roll my tongue for yet another kind of single note tone. I've heard that Norton Buffalo is primarily a tongue roller.
How many times must it be said that, as with most endeavours, it's whatever works for you, man. I'll really raise eyebrows out there with my harp-in-the- right-hand, low-notes-to-the-left-grip. Having been a percussion instruments guy for a long time, it's more about hand movements for me and I get a nice, easy warble with my hand moving the harp.
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