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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Preston question
Preston question
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Tuckster
54 posts
Dec 17, 2008
6:53 AM
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Preston- I watched your video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc1DDYqygo Good playing and a cool riff! But I don't think you're changing keys. I really suck at music theory,but I do know that what you are doing is playing the same riff in a different octave. You could also play it in the low octave--1 blow X 2,2 blow X 2,
2 bent, 2 draw. There's even a name for this,although I can't remember what it is. Its NOT called octaves--that's something else. Perhaps someone with some music theory could explain this better. Just don't want harpers to get confused and perhaps misled on this.
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GermanHarpist
22 posts
Dec 17, 2008
7:29 AM
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Hey Tuckster, I know a little music theory and what Preston did was actually changing the keys/position.
It is a rather complicated part of the blues (and I know people who had tough arguments about it). If there is nobody else I will give a shot at explaining it. However I'm also not quite sure, and I don't want to spread false information.
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Tuckster
55 posts
Dec 17, 2008
7:52 AM
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If what you say is true,then I'm really confused! I'm definitely a "by ear" player and to my ear, Preston never leaves second position. One of my greatest "aha" moments was when I could recognize if a player was in first,second or third position. It really opened things up for me. I can't tell you how I arrived there but it sure made me happy.It answered a bunch of "what's he doing" questions.
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GermanHarpist
26 posts
Dec 17, 2008
8:20 AM
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Check out one of the latest Gussow videos (about klingenthal). In the last couple of months he starts to play in first position more and more (to include that in the blues). He even had this soprano harp challange (which was basically about exploring the 1st position).
In one of the videos he talks about a jam at this klingenthal meetup where he uses the 1st position at the IV in the 12-bar-blues.
There you see, that you can actually more or less play the 2nd postion all the way through. But following the blues progression just sounds much better/cooler/more professional, etc.
If you want I can make a video and explain to you what I mean while I have gussows video running.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 8:22 AM
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Tuckster
56 posts
Dec 17, 2008
9:12 AM
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I watched the Klingenthal video. He plays a 1st position type riff,but he's still in 2nd position.Notice how he switched to an "E' to play true 1st position? It really should have been an "F", but I think he didn't have one handy.
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 9:13 AM
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Preston
72 posts
Dec 17, 2008
9:57 AM
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Tuckster, I will be the first one to admit that I am not an expert on Theory. I never studied music in school, I am self taught from the internet and a couple of books.
As far as if the song actually changes keys when you change chords, that is still open to debate. I'm not sure myself, I was just getting my idea out there for us all to chew on and discuss.
However, I can tell you that I WAS changing positions as I changed the riff. An octave is the interval between one musical pitch and another with half or double its frequency. Example: I played -2' -2 -3' +4 -4' -4 while I was in the I chord. If I were to play an octave of that, it would have been: -5 +6 +^6(overblow) +7 -^7(overdraw) -8. Those are all the same notes, just an octave higher.
I will break it down in notes (using a C harp):
Second position, or I Chord, the riff was
F, G, Bb, C, Db, D
First position, or IV Chord, the riff was
C, C, Eb, F, F#, G
Third position, or V Chord, the riff was
D, D, F, G, Ab, A
Another way to say it is that all notes in these 3 riffs are the same scale degrees, but of different Scales.
In the one chord I started out on the flat7th (Which I am regretting now because it is making this conversation more difficult) then I went Root, Flat Third, Fourth, Flat Fifth, and Fifth of the G scale.
The IV was root, root, flat third, fourth, flat fifth, and fifth, but of the C scale. Etc, Etc.
These all share a couple of the same notes, and there is major similarities from second position to third, because they are a perfect 5th from each other. But I am definetely changing positions.
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oldwailer
375 posts
Dec 17, 2008
10:13 AM
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Preston, since you play a lot better than I do, I wouldn't presume to argue with you--whatever way you choose to think about music theory is working for you.
However, I would like to say that, in my belief system, chords are made up from the scale. The 'scale' is what determines the key.
So, when you change chords, you do not necesarily change keys.
Another word for 'position' is 'mode.' A 'mode' is a scale that is derived by starting from a given note in a major scale and playing the intervals of the major scale up until you hit the note you started on again.
So, it seems to me that you are changing 'modes' when the chord changes--and that works.
If, as you say, the key changes when the chord changes, that would be depressing because I'd have to think too much to play music and I'd have to just take up golf.
I've got this Deja' Vous' thing going--did we not discuss this once before?
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 10:14 AM
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Fredrider51
30 posts
Dec 17, 2008
11:10 AM
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hey tuck how are you..I know you can tell what position are being played because when we were in the car you said that was 1st position somebody was playing. since that night i can tell what positiotn a players is playing at times... how do you do that
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 11:12 AM
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Preston
Guest
Dec 17, 2008
11:33 AM
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Ahh, music theory. Sometimes it's like politics and religion.
Wailer, yes, we did discuss this once before. I said it in another thread and got shot down by a couple of guys. So I backed off. But I can be kinda stuborn, and also I'm from Missouri, the show me state. You can't just tell me, you gotta "Show Me." I couldn't get it out of my head, so I did a YT video on it.
Your explanation makes quite a bit of sense. I may be able settle on that.
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Tuckster
57 posts
Dec 17, 2008
12:14 PM
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Ugh! All this music theory is giving me a headache!Like I said< I suck at music theory,but I think oldwailer is right, what Preston says could just as well be in Chinese, for all I understand. I'm way over my head on an explanation, but I'm not satisfied by anything I've read so far.I'm sticking to my guns and maintain that Preston plays the whole thing in 2nd position. This is just an "experience" thing, after listening to zillions of harp players over the years(I'm old!). Fred,hi good to hear from you. I was afraid somebody would ask me that. I don't know how I do it! Just from listening a lot, I guess. It seemed to happen almost overnight,so to speak. For third position, the 2 draw is a dead giveaway. As soon as they hit it, I KNOW its 3rd.And sometimes I'm not certain its 3rd or 1st, until they play a few more notes. I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and learn some music theory so I can get some "why" questions answered. But I still think its wrong to say you changed keys or position on Preston's video.That's just in the interest of not spreading bad information. Where is Chris or Adam when you need them. Wish one of them would clarify this.
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bluzlvr
93 posts
Dec 17, 2008
2:17 PM
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Preston, first of all that's some fine harp playing.
As far as I can tell, you're playing the entire exercise in the key of G, second position. You're doing a good job of hitting the I,IV,V notes in the G blues progression.
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MrVerylongusername
57 posts
Dec 17, 2008
3:54 PM
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Great playing Preston!
I want to raise one point though. Modes and Positions (although closely related) ARE NOT the same.
Position is a term unique to harmonica and simply describes where the tonic note is played. Certain modes are strongly associated with certain positions e.g. Mixolydian with 2nd but all combinations are theoretically possible.
but don't take my word for it...
"If I play a C harp in 2nd position, that puts me in G. It could be G major, G minor, G dorian, G phrygian, or whatever my desire and level of skill decide to make it." - Winslow Yerxa, Harp-L post
I'm no expert (where's Chris M when you need him?) but since the music key doesn't change - the tonic remains the same throughout - therefore Preston doesn't change positions. He does use scales based on different modes to play over the chord changes
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Preston
Guest
Dec 17, 2008
6:11 PM
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This is great guys! Now we are all thinking and hashing out ideas together. Just what this forumn was intended for. I want to thank all of you for your nice comments on my playing. For the guys who disagree with me, I think it is perfectly fine to agree to disagree. No hard feelings or anything, I want and welcome the different views and opinions. I think it is great to get these ideas out of our heads and into a discussion.
I have another question. There have been a couple of you that say that I am not changing positions as I do these riffs. Let's pretend this video I did was a real song in the key of G. Now say I want to play this song with a band, but my band thinks we should play it in the key of D. Let's say I don't have a G harmonica to play it in cross. Will somebody please give me the tab to play this in third position on a C harp, and tell me how it differs from the riff I do in the V chord?
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oldwailer
382 posts
Dec 17, 2008
8:21 PM
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I agree--this has been a great discussion, Preston--right up until the point in your second paragraph above when you lapsed into another language and the back of my head blew up!
I gotta go get me a drink before I tackle that one. . .;)
Last Edited by on Dec 17, 2008 8:21 PM
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GermanHarpist
33 posts
Dec 18, 2008
2:05 AM
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lol oldwailer...
Well I have to agree: This is a great discussion. And as Preston says: "Just what this forum was intended for".
Keep it up... (make us think)!
----------
http://www.youtube.com/germanharpist
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MrVerylongusername
64 posts
Dec 18, 2008
7:36 AM
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@Preston
Again, this is just my interpretation. I'm not musically trained so I'm not saying this is gospel...
IMHO you are absolutely correct, the riff you play over the I chord in third position (music key D harp key C) is the same as the riff you play over the V chord when you use 2nd position (music key G, harp key C)
To me, it's just a matter of semantics - you say potato and I say... oh hang on...that doesn't work in text! ;-)
A 12 bar blues does not change key. The chords change, the key does not.
The position of the harp refers to where the tonic note is. Since you're an overblow player, pretty much any scale is possible, but the position does not change because your tonic note is static in relation to the music key. You'd have to change harps to change position.
What does change are the scales you use over the chord changes. These are mode changes, not key changes or position changes (the tonic remains the same)
The issue just gets complicated because in a lot of stuff I've read online and in print, position and mode are used interchangeably. As I said above whilst there are strong relationships between them, my understanding is that they are not the same.
At the end of the day it's all about language and that should not detract from the fact that you are a damn fine player!
(and after all this I need a gin to go with that tonic!)
Last Edited by on Dec 18, 2008 7:37 AM
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Tuckster
58 posts
Dec 18, 2008
8:10 AM
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That's the best answer I've read so far. Preston,whatever you call it,that was some good harpin'.
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Preston
Guest
Dec 18, 2008
12:04 PM
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Tuckster, you are right. That is the best answer so far, and I think it is one that makes sense. More importantly, one I can live with.
Myverlongusername, thank you.
O.K. folks, on to the next topic. Thanks again for all the wonderful comments, and great discussion!
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