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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Modes
Modes
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Andrew
41 posts
Dec 21, 2008
4:18 AM
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This is a big topic, about which I know very little, but I know enough to have noticed a lot of misunderstanding of what modes are. I've started a new topic because I've noticed references to modes in two or three other topics and didn't want to reply to one specifically.
There is a common misconception that if you play the scale of C-major, but you start on B and end on B, you are playing a mode. You aren't - you are playing in the scale of C major. I have a friend who is a competent jazz-guitarist who believes this is what modes are, and, I'm sorry to say from what I remember of Jason Ricci's YouTube broadcast, he may have the same idea, and I've just watched a couple of YouTube guitar videos that state it adamantly!
Also, what do you imagine you are gaining from practicing the C-major scale starting on B that you aren't gaining from simply practicing the C-major scale? A classical pianist would never practice "modes" of this nature, because he'd be using exactly the same fingering that he'd be using for the C-major scale anyway, so there would be no point. The reason you practice scales on the harp is to make sure you regularly play every note available, which gives you the oral dexterity equivalent to a pianist's manual dexterity. For this purpose then, the smallest collection of scales necessary to provide you with all the notes will suffice.
Modes were what the ancient musicians (e.g. Greeks) had before our scales were invented. We call them modes because they don't agree with any of our scales. Eastern musics in the modern world also have modes which may or may not sound like ancient modes, but we don't really know how ancient modes sounded: no ancient instrument has survived intact and in tune (and ancient musical writings are too opaque to be used with 100% accuracy)!
Research on this subject boomed in the Sixties because it was in tune with the then prevalent counter-cultural strivings. The results can only have been a mixture of some political context, some research, some guesswork, the assumption that Islamic music is a good starting point. And ultimately the results rely on probability. In other words no-one knows for sure.
Metalosaurio is probably the closest to knowing his stuff, but it may be that even he is simply using a current Eastern mode which has been named after an ancient mode for the sake of convenience: Phrygian, Dorian, Lydian, Mixolydian, etc. can only be convenient labels, and that's all we can really be sure of:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfb0jNDDcGs
If you transcribe what he plays, you'll find that the intervals are semitone, minor third, minor third, minor third, tone (this is the true way to define any mode or scale - by the interval pattern: - any major scale in any key is tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone). You will see that Metalosaurio's mode does not form part of any scale, major or minor. And that's what makes it a real mode, even if we don't know for sure that it coincides exactly with any ancient mode.
I hope this posting will stimulate Metalosaurio into sharing more of his knowledge with us.
And if anyone decides to do some internet research on the subject (I would if I had more time), you need to know how to criticize the sources because you will find they conflict in the ways that I have outlined above.
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2008 4:28 AM
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gene
92 posts
Dec 21, 2008
6:04 AM
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Here's a tutorial on modes:
http://www.zentao.com/guitar/modes/
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Andrew
44 posts
Dec 21, 2008
8:12 AM
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Gene, your link is an example of something I criticize in my posting. It seems that the reason for the confusion is thanks to the Mediaeval Church:
http://www.ericweisstein.com/encyclopedias/music/PhrygianMode.html
And see wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_mode
(Under the heading "Mediaeval and modern Phrygian mode" what they give is just the scale of Ab major! On the whole I think Wiki can be an excellent source if you know what you are doing, but I think this particular Wiki page is pretty much useless unless some of the links point to something good)
My advice is to disregard the Mediaeval Church. Eric Weisstein calls it a diatonic scale instead. I think he is right to (actually, Wiki too says it's an alternative name).
I suggest people stop referring to these diatonic scales as modes and use the word mode for something that has a different pattern of intervals, i.e. the Middle Eastern and ancient music.
If you don't disregard the Mediaeval Church, you end up with no way to describe Middle Eastern, Far Eastern and ancient music!
Check this out:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/modename.html
He also refers to the Church diatonic scales as modes, but at least it looks pretty exhaustive, and the current Indian and Eastern modes can at least be verified by ear!
(Incidentally, what Metalosaurio calls Phrygian is on this page as Raga Manaranjani I)
Last Edited by on Dec 21, 2008 8:31 AM
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MrVerylongusername
75 posts
Dec 22, 2008
7:14 AM
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I like this quotation:
"it's important to remember that medieval mode theory, just like our modern music theory, was not trying to invent a logical system of music. It was trying to explain, describe, and systematize musical practices that were already flourishing because people liked the way they sounded."
That comes from a site which I think covers this topic very well: http://cnx.org/content/m11633/latest/
In the context of modern, equal tempered, Western music, the modes are the 7 variations of a diatonic scale, rotated around different tonal centres.
In a wider historical/world context, where scales may be constructed using fewer steps, different interval patterns (and with microtonality thrown into the mix to confuse matters further) we're no longer necessarily dealing with the familiar do-re-me intervals that have been etched into our consciousness since infancy. The musical concept of modality becomes bigger and more complex. Furthermore, the ragas of Eastern music, although closely related, are more than modes or scales.
I think we're getting to the crux of what your post is about - language and culture. Music is an incredibly complex thing to try and describe in words. The vocabulary and grammar (if you like) of modern, western music theory is different to that of the mediaeval Christian church and that is in turn different to that of Ancient Greece. sometimes the same words pop up, but their meanings have evolved over time into something different.
If I never leave Great Britain, then my language is enough - I don't need to learn Gujerati or Portuguese. If I never explore beyond modern, western music, then the language I have is sufficient to share ideas. If I want to go and work in another culture, then I'd need to be familiar with its language to ensure there are no misunderstandings. As any good schoolboy will tell you, a fart in Germany is very different to one in England! (OK I know it's spelt differently, but you get the idea!)
Last Edited by on Dec 22, 2008 8:16 AM
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Andrew
50 posts
Dec 22, 2008
9:31 AM
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Thankyou, MrVerylongusername, you get my drift!
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mr_so&so
16 posts
Dec 23, 2008
8:01 AM
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During my study of playing positions, I was puzzled that 3rd position is often called "Dorian mode" even in published books on harmonica. A harmonica position is about playing in a particular key of music on a particular key of harp, not about what scale or mode is being played in that position. At least that is my understanding. Thanks Andrew and MrVerylongusername, for clarifying the mystery of modes.
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mr_so&so
17 posts
Dec 23, 2008
8:01 AM
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During my study of playing positions, I was puzzled that 3rd position is often called "Dorian mode" even in published books on harmonica. A harmonica position is about playing in a particular key of music on a particular key of harp, not about what scale or mode is being played in that position. At least that is my understanding. Thanks Andrew and MrVerylongusername, for clarifying the mystery of modes.
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