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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Another "Band Politics" Question about music.
Another "Band Politics" Question about music.
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shaneboylan
66 posts
Jan 08, 2009
5:21 PM
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I play in a band with 2 guitarists, bass and drums. Recently, it's gone rather smoothly, as a lot of the songs we played were I-IV-V progressions and so it was easy enough for me to jam along to.
However - the two guitarists, being guitarists, have recently taken a real liking for heavier, riff-based songs like Hendrix's Hey Joe and Voodoo Chile, Sunshine of your Love by Cream, Scuttle Buttin by SRV, Bridge to Better Days by Joe Bonamassa, and other guitar-porn tunes.
I know the progressions are similar - but often there's a strong emphasis on the actual riffs, that are probably great to play along with if you're a guitarist, but whoever's on harp's sort of left out in the cold.
As guitarists, you can't really blame them for going off into these sort of songs - but the problem for me is finding a place to fit in over these heavier rock tunes. Often - I find myself simply copying the basic riff of the tune over and over again on the harp.
I'm hoping that a few of the players out there with more experience in bands (and band politics) can help advise me in what to do when songs like this come on, as at the moment I often find it intensely boring - basically "listening" to the music, rather than actually joining in.
Last Edited by on Jan 08, 2009 5:21 PM
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MrVerylongusername
101 posts
Jan 08, 2009
5:52 PM
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Some ideas off the top of my head and in no particular order...
Go to the bar and get a drink, there's no rule that says everyone should play every number ;-)
Try singing some backing vocals.
Shake some percussion.
Find a melody line and play a unison or harmony part with the guitars - Thin Lizzy style.
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harmonicanick
102 posts
Jan 09, 2009
1:36 AM
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Shane,
When I read your post it sent a shiver down my 2 hole draw!
You can try the good ideas MrV gives, but I get fed up with being marginalised by basically selfish, self-indulgent musicians.
If you are not enjoying it, tell them the truth and see how they react. Bargain with some ideas of your own which features you!Set lists are always a contentious issue.
How long have you been with these guys? Which begs the question 'what is the shelf life of band'? 1-2 years in my experience
I am between bands at present and having more fun playing at open mics.
Finally remember its about fun and the joy of playing...move on on your journey if you feel that is right..good luck
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Buddha
7 posts
Jan 09, 2009
8:01 AM
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This goes along with my point about not listening to other harmonica players and trying to play what other instruments are playing.
Instead of complaining about being bored or going to the bar to get a drink, take some time and learn to play those guitar riffs on the harp. Most of them are possible in one way or another. What's the worst that could happen? You'll be a better player because of it? WAH WAH WAH...
In you're in the perfect situation to expand your playing and play stuff that nobody else does. How do you think Jason Ricci got to sounding like he does or carlos or me?
Unless you're a rank rank beginner there is not much to be learned from listening to other harmonica players unless you want to sound like a copy of old and over used.
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harpnoodler
1 post
Jan 09, 2009
10:11 AM
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Hi all, new member here! Coming back to "serious" harp after a long break. By "serious" I mean working to improve rather than coasting on past gains and sounding "good enough" rather than good.
Anyway... shaneboylan I was in a similar situation with a group I was playing with about 5 years ago. None of our line-up (2 guitar/vocals drums and bass) played blues, though they thought they did because they knew the changes, but none even listened to blues sides. Anyway, because of the harp and the fact that we were 90% fun/10% business, I was able to influence the set list to be harp-friendly. Some of the tunes: Drift away- Dobie Gray; The Weight-The Band; some Blue Rodeo, Tom Petty, CCR, a version of Mustang Sally, some 50's tunes. All good, we weren't trying to "cover" so we'd work out arrangements and go and I had fun.
Line-up change: bass, drums and one of the guitarists left and were quickly replaced by respectively: type-A semi-pro jazz guy "slumming", metalhead "when's the next drum solo?", and "I am Paul Mccartney's twin, separated at birth, but blessed with Clapton's chops". We not only eliminated anything remotely blues/folk/country oriented except for some whiny Blue Rodeo ballads, but the new bassist was a stickler for faithfully copying the original recordings and guitar-guy #2 made sure only guitar solos were featured in songs. By this time, band practices were becoming like work and I had taken up blues piano at home. Guitar god guy decided he wanted keyboards to enhance his sound and I thought OK, I'll learn some changes and maybe get a leg-up on lead-sheet work. Problem is, I hated almost every song and had to practise my butt off to come (not very) close to the recorded versions of the tunes. On the few tunes where a harp appeared, they wanted it to sound as amateurish as the original and note contain an extra note.
I quit and about three weeks later the founder of the group (singer, guitarist, sound guy, manager and rehearsal space provider) kicked everyone out and has formed a duo that borrows equally from our setlists.
I'm all for taking the harp in novel directions (it is sorely lacking in reggae in my opinion and I'd love to hear it soca), but particularly in rock idioms, your gonna have to fight for every note with most guitar players I think. For one thing, I think a lot will immediately become arrangement purists to protect their solo turf.
Still, I agree if you can work it out, metal harp needs an exponent!
Last Edited by on Jan 09, 2009 10:12 AM
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Tuckster
70 posts
Jan 09, 2009
2:31 PM
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I think collectively,guitar players may have the biggest egos on the planet.I play in an open stage host band. We briefly added a 2nd guitar player,simply because he was very talented and tasteful. It left absolutely no space for me to play in. It completely changed the whole nature of the band. As good as he was as a player,it upset the "balance" of the band.He knew it too, and graciously bowed out.Chris,I'm sure you could have pulled it off,but the vast majority of us couldn't.I'm all for playing "out of the box" and I'm never afraid to at least try to make something work.Sometimes nothing works and I go sit at the bar.Since its an open stage,I get to play with many guitar players and they all aren't created equal. A lot of them have no "ears" to accommodate a harp player.Its usually all about them,which is fine at an open stage. Time for another drink.I think a guitar player should "adjust" for a harp player.Wish I could put that better.but I lack the musical vocabulary.All I know is I definitely "click" with some guitarists,but they're in the minority.Probably not a coincidence most of them are seasoned veterans.
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Buddha
9 posts
Jan 09, 2009
3:54 PM
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I've punked a few guitar players who thought they were the shit. Mike Fuggazi's guitarist was the most recent. LOL.. it was so bad he quit playing because he didn't know what to do. LOL
My point is, I was player just like you guys at one time. A sideman in a bar band that played songs just like the CD. There were songs I had to sit out on because I couldn't play them. I always told myself, A sax player wouldn't be sitting at the bar watching his band play music. So I practiced a lot. I listened to recordings, sat down with the guitar player who would show me stuff and after a few weeks I was playing it.
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oldwailer
433 posts
Jan 09, 2009
6:44 PM
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Hi Tuckster,
"I think collectively,guitar players may have the biggest egos on the planet." LOL! That would actually be true--if not for Harp Players! HAHA!
I agree that a guitarist should "adjust" for a harp player--but, sadly, back in the day when I played guitar as a pro--I never could find a damn harper who would "adjust" for me! I never even found one that knew his 2 draw was 1/2 tone flat!
I don't mean to offend--I just find it humorous now, when I play harp at a local open mike, the guitarist always wants to walk all over me--I think there could be some give & take here. Maybe we should all think more bout what is good for the music--instead of what is good for the harper or the git man. . .
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Tuckster
71 posts
Jan 09, 2009
10:21 PM
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Ha Ha My dream is to have the chops to put a guitar player in his place. That and a 200 watt amp that doesn't feedback so I can match his volume! LOL Honestly,IMHO making music is a team sport.I don't care if I solo, I'm happy to add something interesting to the conversation.Old Wailer,yes I've seen harp players that give us a bad name. I tell a band I play harp and the guitarist gives me a look like he stepped in dog doo doo.But then, I've seen harpers who have given him a good reason for that look.They're usually drunk and playing the one harp they own,irregardless of what key the song's in.
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shaneboylan
68 posts
Jan 12, 2009
2:10 PM
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Thanks for all these suggestions guys - it's always good to get feedback from people with more experience of both bands and playing.
I'm definitely not a quitter, so I think for the meantime, I'm gonna try my best to fit something into the songs like chris suggested - by firstly listening to different recordings of them and also listening to what various different instruments do. I've come up with a few ideas, although I think in the case of SRV's Scuttle Buttin' I might have to follow MVLUN's advice, and go get a short! Unless anyone has any ideas. Anyone?
Furthermore, on the topic of guitarists, I think it's sometimes the case that, because they play guitar, some guitarists feel that they should be into "the blues" and should therefore have a harp player to somehow further authenticate the "Blues" nature of their band, without making any attempt to understand the harp as an instrument.
In the band I'm in at the minute I often feel that there's no distinction made by guitarists between blues and the guitar based classic rock of the 70's.
Thus as a harp player sometimes I feel that I'm somehow expected to automatically adapt accordingly, because "it's 'blues', isn't it...?"
P.S. - On that topic - Fuck knows how Magic Dick adapted to some of J. Geils' songs. What the hell did he do on Centrefold with that chromatic?
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harmonicanick
107 posts
Jan 12, 2009
3:07 PM
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Shane,
Please don't make excuses for guitarists, remember they are the enemy :-)
Stand your ground... our instrument may be small but check out JR with Walter Trout in Amsterdam 2008 to see the rightful evolvement of harp playing in the band structure...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J_JvKci-uZ0
Yours Nicko
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shaneboylan
69 posts
Jan 13, 2009
4:55 AM
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amazing - i remmber mentioning jason's playing on the outsider album on this forum before. his ability to balance himself with other great musicians, in particular sean starski, is second to none.
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MrVerylongusername
106 posts
Jan 13, 2009
7:28 AM
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A lot of dissing of guitarists here. Let's face facts, if you are working within a rock/blues context then you need them. They, on the other hand, do not need us. Guitarists are right to be wary of harmonica players - we compete directly with them in their niche, both in tone and arrangement terms.
Guitarists crank their amps to get their tone, when we want to do that we get feedback that pisses everyone off. When we get the tone right the volume is too low against the guitar, so we bitch about the guitarist being too loud. In pursuit of our tone, we complain about someone else in pursuit of theirs. Somewhat hypocritical don't you think?
Guitar attracts a certain kind of personality. Not all guitarists are egomaniacs, but a lot are. A guitar is cool; it puts you in the spotlight. A guitar trasnsforms you from average Joe to rock God. Some folk just crave the attention and the guitar is a means to get it.
Harmonica attracts a certain type of person too. Invariably harp players lack the musical knowledge to communicate effectively with other musicians and we've all seen the drunken Gus who staggers up to jam with the band. Yup it's a stereotype, but so is the rock god poser guitarist - they are the extremes.
Some of harpers us are excellent musicians with technical knowledge beyond the ability to jam a 12 bar, but when Chris Michelak says that 98% of harp players are crap musicans I'm inclined to agree. I'd put myself somewhere in that 98% too. Collectively, if such a thing as a harmonica community exists, then we have a duty to recognise our own failings and improve on our weaknesses.
The question was raised as to why guitarists do not try to understand harmonica players - well how many of us understand guitarists? Hands up if you have to ask the bass player what key the tune's in. Hand's up if you've ever ranted about the guitar being too loud.
The original post was about band politics. I've been in bands that sound very similar to the Shane's. I've played with guitarists like that. When a guitarist chooses material like that it's because he wants his moment of glory - to prove he is more than a 12 bar player. Fine. Let him have it, uninterrupted. Chris asks what's the worst that can happen? yeah you might become a better player... if you last that long! however if you can't cut it from the word go, you won't be winning anyone's admiration. Whatever happens, there won't be any going back. The guitarists won't turn round and say "You know all this Stevie Ray stuff is so uninspiring, let's go back to playing 12 bars".
So back to the original dilemma - what to do?
The choices:
1. Sitting out. It might have seemed somewhat defeatist, but it won't get anyone's backs ups and might win you the opportunity to suggest a few harp focussed tunes for your showcase moment. In the meantime you can be privately working on something in readiness for...
2. Playing along. Even if you can do it, it might not be what the guitarist had in mind. If you are going to take this road, then you have to talk about it with them first.
What would I do? well, I'd sit the tunes out a while whilst I did some woodshedding in my own time. Then armed with the new licks and an arrangement, I'd explain to the guitarist what I was going to try and why. Do it at a non-crucial time (rehearsal room, not a club full of punters) and let them be the judge. If they go for it then hats off to you, you've won some admiration from a fellow musican (not the enemy). If they don't, then you gave it a shot. Time to re-evaluate what you want out of the band. Are these new tunes the shape of things to come, or just the guitarists blowing off steam? are you there on equal terms or are you in the band, as you yourself (Shane) hint at, to give the band blues cred?
Finally, if it all goes tits-up, then you can form your own band, where you are the lead instrument and you call the shots.
A band is like a marriage, but with more people to keep sweet. Sometimes you have to bite your lip. Sometimes you have to let it all out.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 7:33 AM
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Bobbyred16
30 posts
Jan 13, 2009
8:16 AM
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This is a great topic, I recently went from a band where as a harp player I had my set solo's and beacuse we played mostly shuffle's I was able to vamp behind and just play along to the groove. Now, I find myself in a new situation where we do more diverse and rock based blues. We still play some classics, so it's not a total loss to me.
At first I was a bit unhappy with the song selection, but after some thought, I learned to adapt to the songs. I also have the unsually situation in that my guitar player constantly encourages me to find horn lines to every song. So, I am always able to play without getting a dirty look. This has helped me to learn how to "lay off" during certian parts of a song, and how to groove strong with the bass player to add another layer of time. This gives me the flexablitiy to be part of the rhythm section and also to be a soloist when I get the nod.
If nothing works for me in that song, I'll just sit that one out. I also sing some lead, so that fills in nice for the more rock intensive songs. As Harp players we need to face the fact that we're not going to have it 100% our way, so take what you can get, it sure does beat not being able to play out live at all.
I always bring a positive attitude and a lot of enthusiasm when I am with a band, they love that I am pretty much okay with new ideas, whether they fit good with me or not. Each song, espcially hendrix songs that are hard to play with harp, present a new challenge and only make me better. It sure isn't easy being in a band, harder than a marrige and most of them don't last, but you have to make it fun no matter what or you'll find yourself in your woodshed more than on stage and that really isn't the goal for most of us.
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XHarp
7 posts
Jan 13, 2009
9:07 AM
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OK, I am in exactly the same situation.
Two other guitar players and my harp and the desire to expand our repertoir into Blues Rock with the new drummer who is all about rock & roll. Some April Wine, Skynyrd, Led Zep, Rolling Stones, CCR etc... Clearly guitar based stuff.
I think its great!!! It challenged me to find new riffs and new styles and in fact I've even contributed vocals and backgound vocals, played the "egg", and play on some much needed slide guitar work. (Had to go learn how to do that first)
Had to learn lots new or sit out or quit. We've been together for 5 years now and as the rest moved to rock infused music I sat down with them and told them that I supported the guitar stuff but they had to understand that we are a blues band and if we are going to put together rock based set lists then I was either going to be sitting out for the one whole rock set or we have to find the compromise.
They were really good about it and we mix the sets up from slow blues to shuffles and some rock tunes in each set. For the rock tunes I either play some harp as background (that's a great challenge) or I do something else. I've even gotten involved in writting a few tunes and the recent rock tune that I co-wrote is going to end up on our new CD.
Its your music and you are part of a band of people. Everyone has to contribute in some way.
I say, go learn something new and stay in it for the fun.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 9:14 AM
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Tuckster
74 posts
Jan 13, 2009
9:34 AM
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I really do love guitar. I guess its a love/hate relationship. And I get along great with my band's guitarist,as well as the rest of the band. It is like a marriage,but with 4-5 people instead of 2. Didn't mean to offend any harpers. I was giving a worst case scenario. (I've seen it happen more than once.)I'm certainly in the 98% group. But I think I know my limitations. If I can't come up with something that contributes to the song, I just shut up. I'll try really hard to come up with something, but my arsenal is limited. But a year from now,I might come up with something for that song I couldn't play on,as I continue to learn and evolve. I must be doing something right-my band loves me! We do quite a few rock songs and sometimes I'll sit back and let the guitarist rip.Other times,he'll return the favor.It's all good.
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harpnoodler
14 posts
Jan 13, 2009
10:13 AM
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Hey all,
Found this site: http://www.heavymetalharmonica.com/. I don't know anything about Nick Shane and the song samples are too short for me to get a good listen, but at least someone's giving it a shot as a pro. Maybe I'll learn some licks from my son's Stetina Metal Lead Guitar book. It's all just pentatonics, right? ;}
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gene
104 posts
Jan 13, 2009
10:31 AM
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You can find several Nicky Shane videos on You Tube.
For some rock/boogie ideas, check out Hakan Ehn on You Tube.
Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2009 10:35 AM
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harpnoodler
16 posts
Jan 13, 2009
5:38 PM
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I saw the videos by " Nicky Shane: the fastest harmonica player in the world".
There is a discussion on harp-l on just this topic called "roadhouse blues and other rock standards".
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MrVerylongusername
108 posts
Jan 14, 2009
2:09 AM
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Hmmm...
Not very impressed by Mr Shane I'm afraid. Personally I think playing harp should be like sex. Being the fastest isn't something to be proud of...
For Harp in a rock/alternative context, I was impressed by "Vicious Aloysious" www.myspace.com/viciousaloysius but I'm afraid the band is no more. Check out Viceroy and Pleasure in Pain on their MySpace.
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