Axident
1 post
Jan 17, 2009
6:45 AM
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I am a new harp player (1 week) and have a some questions about harps and bending that I haven't seen covered in videos/tutorials and was hoping someone here might be able shed some light on the situation.
I have started to get some bending action happening on the 1,2, and 4 draws but occasionally I get a high pitched squeal when trying to bend, I have no doubt it's my lack of technique but I am curious as to what is happening inside the harp to cause this ear splitting squeal.
Also curious about which harps people have found easiest to bend out of the box. I can't afford a custom made harp and I am currently playing a Hohner Golden Melody (Key of C). I would prefer harps that do not use a wood comb. The city that I live in doesn't have any decent stores so there is really only two brands available to me, Susuki and Hohner. I am really interested in trying a Susuki but I am torn between the Promaster and the Bluesmaster, if there is a Hohner out there that compares I would be willing to give it a shot as well. Hohner has a new harp posted on their website called a Blues Bender that is targeted to new players and making bending a bit easier, but I live in Canada and all the stores tell me it will be a few months before that will have any. Has anyone had the previlege to try the Hohner Blues Bender?
One last thing that has been bothering me is people talking about how some harps are lacking in responsiveness, or sticking reeds, and other problems. My question is not so much how to fix any of these issues, it's is there a good way to test/judge which problems a particular harp may have?
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MrVerylongusername
113 posts
Jan 17, 2009
7:32 AM
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@Axident
First of all welcome to the Forum and welcome to the wonderful world of harping!
to answer your questions:
1. The high pitched sqeal - this happens when the reed vibrates from side to side (torsion) as opposed to up and down - it is a sure sign you are sucking and blowing too hard. Breathe in and out through the harp, but don't blow (as you would a trumpet) or suck (as through a drinking straw).
2.Any harp by Suzuki will be a good harp to begin with. Most Hohner harps are good too, but avoid the budget ones. The Blues Bender is too new - there's a thread about it on here somewhere - I don't know if anyone's tried one yet, it was only on sale from yesterday. I don't know what prices are like in Canada - or even what your US$ exchange rate is like, but there are some good internet dealers. I'm sure some of the Stateside posters here can recommend one.
3. As for responsiveness issues. There is a noticeable difference between the good brands and the budget harps, but really that's as far as it goes. There are a lot of folk on here who will swear that that they have to re-gap their harps to play them. That's a personal playing style issue. Once you can play you might need to adjust things to suit your style.
However... IMHO I do not think this is something a beginner should be worrying about. All the good branded harps should play OK out of the box. You should be able to get every hole to sound, all the bottom end draw bends and most of the blow bends (with the possible exception of hole 10 on a higher key harp) without doing anything involving taking the harmonica apart. If you cannot then it is a matter of technique not technology (I am in no doubt I will get people replying to this telling you the contrary, but folk on this board are a little obsessive about customising their own harps). Better to spend your practicing time playing! Once you can play the thing, that's the time to customise if you really have to.
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2009 7:38 AM
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Andrew
77 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:28 AM
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Stick with your Golden Melody for the time-being - there's nothing wrong with it.
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Scoltx
23 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:44 AM
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Sound advice from MrVerylongusername.
From my experience and not being too far away from (a couple of years or so) where you are playing wise, I find any of the plastic comb Hohners to be easy benders. I'd shy away from the bargain models (Blues Bender, Hot Metal, Blues Band etc) if you are serious tho. Special 20's are readily available in Canada at 95% of the music stores I've visited and are used by a lot of serious harpaholics.
I can't comment on the Suzuki's as I don't own any but have only read good things, I would expect they would be easy to play as well out of the box.
Also readily available in most mainstream music stores are Lee Oskar harmonica's, I own a couple and they are easy players but use equal temperament tuning which makes the chords sound a little harsh. Your Golden Melody has the same tuning scheme as the LO's.
Once you have some technique developed, consider wood comb harps like the Marine Band or Blues Harp. They require a little more work to play but I love the tone.
In the end you will find a preference for tone/ playability with stock harps, just try a bunch and see what you like.
Remember Dr.Gussow plays mostly out of the box Marine Bands, and only tweaks them a little when required.
Check out his video on what he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkqmXP9IVyg
Us mere mortals can get away without the tweaks in the beginning. :)
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harmonicanick
112 posts
Jan 17, 2009
8:44 AM
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Axident,
G melody's are, in my opinion, a great harp and have been mine of choice for many years.
Do not worry about anything, but find that single note, putting plenty of your mouth around, dont purse and tense, relax and blow or draw slowly and easily till it comes.
Most beginners try too hard and tense their muscles. Remember enjoy the sounds, experiment with your tongue, and relax in the woodshed..
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Axident
2 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:11 PM
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Thanks for all the advice. I looked around the city and the only Susuki I found was a Harpmaster which is not quite what I was hoping for. May just have to order a Bluesmaster online? Any recommendations for online shops with good shipping times that actually carry Susuki Bluesmasters?
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SteveL
18 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:19 PM
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Coast2coast have good shipping times and stock Suzuki.
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Axident
3 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:31 PM
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Coast2coast wants $25USD for the Harp and another $25 to ship to Canada... that's not gonna happen. Maybe if was ordering a set or something I wouldn't care about the shipping being that high but for 1 Harp that is just too much.
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tookatooka
89 posts
Jan 17, 2009
2:51 PM
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Have a look on eBay. I've had them shipped from the US to the UK for about $5.00.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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Axident
4 posts
Jan 17, 2009
4:19 PM
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Alright well I just ordered a Susuiki Bluesmaster in the Key of A from musicianswebstore.com $31.77CAN. Shipping was about $10CAN (expidited shipping was only a dollar more) best of all they are a Canadian company. I will post again on this thread when it arrives to let everyone know how my experience with the company and the harp itself goes. Thanks again to everyone.
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tookatooka
92 posts
Jan 18, 2009
6:24 AM
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I know you're gonna love it.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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Honkin On Bobo
19 posts
Jan 18, 2009
6:55 AM
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We seem to go 'round and 'round on this bending/custom harp issue, which would lead me to believe that there is no right answer.
Just recently on a different thread, Chris Michalek, an excellent harp player/instructor (check his YT page out), made an impressive case that customized harps make it easier and faster for even a beginner to progress because bending is much easier,and the harp up set up for blues playing.
Longusername takes a 180 degrees different stance, saying that you should be able to get every bend that is available on a straight out-of-the-box harp.
Adam thinks well enough about gapping that he made a video or two demonstrating how to do it, though I don't remember if in the video he addresses whether one MUST customize harps in order to get all bends.
I really wish there was a consensus on this topic, as I'm right there in my playing. Able to get some bends, not others. It's entirely frustrating.
Oh, and if anyone is about to wade in and say "I picked up the harp and in five minutes I had all the bends mastered, including all of the three-hole draw", please, look for an inter-galactic board to post on. You're not of this world.
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 7:37 AM
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Axident
5 posts
Jan 18, 2009
7:28 AM
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I have only been playing for a bit over a week and I can hit the 1 draw bend with little to no effort however when I try to translate what I am doing with my mouth on the 1 hole to the 2,3,4,6 holes it doesn't work. I want to say that it's my technique that is flawed, but something has me wondering about why I can hit the 1 so easy and not get any other holes to bend correctly (even a 1/2 tone). I played flute years ago so the embrochure is somewhat similar which might be why I picked up rather quickly on single notes and note articulation. If there is a harp that allows me to bend easier then I want that one... I agree that once you are proficient you should be able to bend almost any decent OOB harp, but something that makes the learning curve less steep would do wonders for me right now. As for the post from Verylongusername about the torsion, I have noticed that it will do it even when I am not trying to suck a marble through a straw. Light draws will sometimes cause the squeal to happen (although my version of light might not be that light at all... I don't know.)
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MrVerylongusername
116 posts
Jan 18, 2009
8:26 AM
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@Honkin on Bobo
It's not exactly 180 degrees.
I've no doubt Chris makes wonderful instruments and I'm sure these will be super-responsive and easy to play.
A simple analogy should clarify my point - you'll get a lot more out of a Ferrari if you know how to drive first.
I'm not saying you can't learn to drive in a Ferrari; just that it seems a bit of a heavy investment, given that learners tend to have more accidents. Harps break, reeds fatigue - especially in a beginners hands.
If harp manufacturers made instruments that were unplayable, they'd be out of business. All good branded harps are playable out of the box. Quality control might let a dud slip through very rarely, but generally they are all playable. That's not to say they are as responsive as a custom, but they are responsive enough.
I didn't pick up a harp and have all the bends mastered in five minutes. When I learnt there was no internet, just the book by Tony Glover and the sagely advice of the experienced players. I played for over a year before someone taught me the cross harp trick. There were no shortcuts for me, but with information so scarce I never presumed there were. Seems today everyone wants to try everything to solve their beginner's teething problems - everything except the one thing that will 100% guarantee they'll be a better player - practice.
@Axident
If you're not forcing the draw, then next thing to try is relaxing your embouchure a little. Trust me it really is a matter of practice. You will get there. A week isn't long, sounds like you're progressing very well.
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2009 11:31 AM
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Andrew
84 posts
Jan 18, 2009
9:12 AM
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Axident, be patient! In my second week of harp playing I couldn't play the 1 hole draw without bending it. The rest will come.
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oldwailer
452 posts
Jan 18, 2009
1:08 PM
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Hey, Axident--you've got about all the great advicer you could need here--I just want to throw in one thing--I used to play the flute too--and I found that there are some very important differences in embouchure when you play harp.
The thing I would stress is to RELAX the embouchure and loosen the lips--let the harp fall further into your mouth. Jon Gindick has a really good lesson on this on YT--Adam discusses it too in the early lessons. As former flute players, I think we need to pay even more attention to this instruction.
Experience with the flute will do great things for your vibrato when you start on that--but it might be a bit of an obstacle early in playing harp. I had to also overcome the tendancy to tighten up for the higher notes--the relax thing above also applies there. There was another ex-flute player named Butterfield, I believe. . .
One other thing--I have done some work on Dave
Barrett's book--the Basic Blues one--the entire book and CD are for beginners, and he gets you playing some really cool blues in a short time. I mention this because he does this without ever going into bending at all! Bending is in the next book, which I haven't gotten yet. It is actually possible to play some really fun stuff without bending! (of course, at my level--I don't think I could pull it off--I bend without thinking about it).
http://www.harmonicamasterclass.com/basic.htm
I mention this because I believe you might be putting too much importance on bending too early in the game. To me, it might be more important to learn other basic skills first.
Welcome to the forum and to the harp!
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Andrew
87 posts
Jan 18, 2009
3:02 PM
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I wish I'd given up the oboe for the flute a long time ago, but now it's too late. Besides, flautists are ten a penny, but part of me itches to hand over the credit card in a music shop and come out with that nice shiny new Yamaha!
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Baker
17 posts
Jan 19, 2009
5:40 AM
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Axident,
specific to your question about being able to bend the 1 hole but not the others I had a similar experience. I, like Andrew, found that every time I played the 1 hole draw I was bending it slightly. This was, for me a bit of a break through and gave me some insight into how to bend.
However after a while I realized that using the same technique on other holes didn't work so I concentrated on the 4 hole draw bend.
For me, I found that with the lower holes I could get away with using my lips and cheeks to produce a bend but this didn't produce a very good tone, was hard to control and didn't work on the higher holes.
After several months of trying I finally managed to get it right and realized it is more about the tongue and throat. This technique, applied to the lower holes, also works but gives much better tone and control.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, for me, I found I could get away with a weaker technique on the lower holes (and the lower harps) than I could on the higher notes. However it was a step in the right direction.
Anyway I hope this is some use to you. All I can say is practice, practice, practice.
Baker
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Peter757
24 posts
Jan 19, 2009
6:59 AM
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Oldwailer,
I also recently purchased David Barrett's Basic Blues Harmonica Method Book/CD. Great stuff, but I'm curious as to how you integrate it into your practice. I'm just starting 12Bar Jam #1-4. Do you practice until you can play through with good timing and tone, before moving on...or is memorizing the jams critical as well?
I've been splitting practice sessions between Barrett material and a Gussow lesson...
Sorry if this deviates a bit from the original post..
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snakes
78 posts
Jan 19, 2009
12:59 PM
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Axident,
I agree with a couple of the other posts above in regards to relaxing your embrouchure and the one hole being easier to bend than some of the other holes. I also noticed that as I work my way up the register to higher notes on the harp there are subtle differences in the oral cavity relative to bending the notes. Both from the jaw and tongue perspective. My two cents on which harps are the easiest to bend is twofold. While there is some pertinence in learning to bend on any harp and not "blaming" the harp there are definitely some that are easier for me to bend on than others. I can verify this by playing them side by side and bending the same note and same key on one harp on the first pull and putting a different model of the same key up to my mouth and having difficulty achieving the same draw note. I have only been playing a little more than a year and own the following models. SP20, MB, Bluesband, LO, Pro Harp, Bluesmaster, Promaster, and Golden Melody. Bar none the easiest to bend out of the box is the Suzuki Bluesmaster. A close second from the Hohner family for me is the SP20. My two cents. Welcome to the joy that can be derived from harmonica playing.
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gene
114 posts
Jan 19, 2009
1:23 PM
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Axident,
I recently learned how to bend the notes right. I was asking about my bending problems on this forum a short time back, but nobody could help me.
Then, in some of David Barret's material, he said to articulate the word "you." So I slowly articulated "you" until I found that sweet spot.
Each hole will have a different sweet spot, and the lower holes require you to drop your jaw more.
My problem before that "you" thing was that I could not bend some of the notes far enough. I was articulating "oh" and drawing harder.
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oldwailer
456 posts
Jan 19, 2009
6:42 PM
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Peter,
I think it might be the best to follow the way Dave says to do it in the book--to learn each riff before jamming and such.
I might not be a good person to ask about how to practice--I have a fairly decent ear and I just listen to the CD and copy them by ear--I haven't read more than a page or so out of the book yet.
What I did was to put the CD on my ipod--then I just play it while I drive (I have a neck brace to hold the steering wheel). ;)
I have learned a lot this way--and it is more fun than working laboriously through written materials for me--but I do hit long plateaus and ruts that are hard to break out of. I think I move faster and better when I work harder at it--but I'm not a very disciplined person. . .
I study Adams lessons the same way--on the ipod, mostly. . .
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Axident
7 posts
Jan 22, 2009
9:14 PM
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Received my Suzuki Bluesmaster today, and based on my limited playing with it, I am very pleased. It is more responsive than my Hohner Golden Melody, and I am having a bit more luck with bending on the 1, and 2 holes with it, as opposed to the GM which is primarily just the 1 hole that I can bend correctly. This could be because the Suzuki is in the key of A and the GM is key of C. But I really do like the feel of the Suzuki when playing it. So the harp gets really high marks in my books, and the company I ordered from got it to me in very good time. I ordered it on Saturday afternoon and recieved it on Thursday. Good prices. Any other Canadians looking to order harps online would do well to check out musicianswebstore.com (company is based in Ontario). They might ship globally but I honestly forgot to look when I was ordering. Thanks for all those who contributed to my seeking of knowledge!
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mikolune
10 posts
Jan 23, 2009
12:15 AM
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On bending - I can bend more or less successfully all holes, have been playing for about a year now. Until recently, I was bending by changing the shape of the air flow at the mouth level. However, after watching a Jason Ricci video where he said just by the way, something like "bending happens when you change the shape of your throat", I started using my throat instead of the mouth - turns out this works much better for me, I now have much cleaner attacks on bent notes. The scary thing is that I discovered this by chance ... Got me wondering how much more I may be doing wrong - need to find a teacher, no way around it right ?
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Chevus
4 posts
Jan 23, 2009
10:02 AM
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Axident,
I am also a new harmonica player; however, I have played guitar for many years and appreciate quality (yet affordable) instruments. When I decided to purchase a harp, I looked at various product reviews and recommendations and narrowed my final selection down to the Special 20 and the Lee Oskar Major Diatonic (both key of C). I ultimately decided on the Lee Oskar, because a lot of reviewers liked the longevity of the Lee’s.
Like you, I have been working on basic techniques. My single notes are coming along nicely. However, I'm struggling with my bending...No problem, I realize it takes time to learn a new instrument.
Here's my question, is it difficult for most beginners to play the 1-Draw …Just a simple draw note with no bend? I get good solid tone with all other single notes (blows and draws). The only exception is the 1-hole…This position requires me to contort the angle of the harp in my mouth and draw air very precisely...Its difficult to give an accurate description of this process!
Anyway, I'm wondering if the reed needs some tweaking. I the emailed company, and customer service is going to have a tech call me...However, that was last week and I'm still waiting!
After reading your initial post, I started researching the Suzuki harps and wish I'd bought a Bluesmaster. My next purchase will be a Suzuki...Not sure which key will be most useful...Can someone offer suggestions for choosing a key for my second harp?
BTW, the Promaster sounds amazing in the video demonstration...Maybe when I get better!
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Axident
8 posts
Jan 23, 2009
5:25 PM
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Chevus,
I previously played a flute for a number of years so the shape of the mouth is somewhat similar for a basic note on the harp. I've never had any issues personally but have heard of many new harp player having issues getting particular holes on the harp to sound. If you know someone else that has some basic harp experience you could get them to try your harp on the troubled hole, or take it into a music shop that sells harps as many of them have a wind bag (not sure the actual name of them, but they look like a foot pedal you would use on an inflatable camping matress) they can put the harp on (not sure if they do draw notes though).
As for the Suzuki Bluesmaster I would definatly give one a go. The key I got is an A. Most people seem to recommend getting either an A (which is lower than the C) or a D (which is a notch higher than the C). The other option is to get one in the key of C so you have a true comparison between your current Lee Oskar and the Bluesmaster. If you are planning on working with instructional videos/books for the next little while you may not need anything other than a C at the moment, as almost all of the beginner ones use the key of C. This is where I am right now, I have the key of A Bluesmaster but all the stuff I am trying to learn only uses the C harp, which makes my new Suzuki Bluesmaster more of a messing around kind of harp, at least until I get a bit better and am able to start trying to jam with some non-instructional blues tunes.
Yeah I was really curious about the Promaster myself but figured I would try the Bluesmaster as it is cheaper. From what I have read the only major difference is the aluminum comb. They use the same reeds, not sure about the cover plates, although I think they are very similar. I will get a Promaster eventually just to see if there is any difference, but for now I just can't justify the price difference for an aluminum comb.
Anyway I am glad to see another new harp player, it's good to know that there are others besides me struggling to grasp this seemingly simple instrument. If I had only know the complexities of this tin sandwhich I would have started learning it years ago!! :-P
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Chevus
5 posts
Jan 23, 2009
8:41 PM
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Update:
I received a call today from Lee Oskar about my harp issue. He was returning from a tradeshow and asked to call me back when he reached his office...I could tell he was interested in helping me resolve the problem. That's first class customer service right there!
After speaking with him, I decided to work on my 1-Draw...I eventually started getting a solid tone. I'm not sure if the reed relaxed or my playing improved...It may have been a combination of the two.
Anyway, I left a message for Lee not to call and thanked him for his time.
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Blind Melon
19 posts
Jan 29, 2009
12:34 PM
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Axident,
I messed around for a while when I first tried to learn how to play the harp years ago. It wasn't until I started taking lessons from a local harp pro that I made steady progress.
My instructor made me learn how to play all 10 holes on the harmonica cleanly lip pursing (which I was familiar with) and tongue blocking (not much familiar with) before I moved on to bending. Some people actually bend the 2 draw slightly when starting out without trying.
What I am trying to say is that it is easy to get excited about learning to play cross harp like the pros, but you need to get familiar with all of the notes on the harp first. Learn the correct embouchure early on and you will develop a good tone.
When you become efficient at this, then move on to bending. I would recommend Jerry Portnoy's "Blues Harmonica Masterclass" CD set. Also, I agree that David Barrett provides good instruction on bending.
Regarding the brand of harmonica, I prefer Hohner Special 20's (personal choice). I would stay away from any of the low end (cheap) harps. I also agree with MrVerylongusername in that while a custom harp might be easier to learn on, a good quality out of the box harp would be the way to start. Maybe when you move up to an "intermediate" level, the custom harp would be the way to go.
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2009 12:43 PM
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tookatooka
97 posts
Jan 31, 2009
2:18 PM
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Hi Axident. So pleased you like the Bluesmaster. It's a great harp. I wish we could get Adam to try one and give an opinion from a professionals viewpoint. I'm sure he'd be most impressed.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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Chevus
8 posts
Jan 31, 2009
5:36 PM
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I received a Bluesmaster in the mail today, and I can't wait to compare it to my Lee Oskar...FWIW,it's in the key of Bb to follow along better with Adam's YouTube lessons.
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tookatooka
98 posts
Feb 01, 2009
5:29 AM
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Be sure to let us know what you think please?
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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Chevus
9 posts
Feb 01, 2009
9:12 AM
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I had a chance to try my Bluesmaster late last night, and I love it. I don't dislike my Lee Oskar, but the BM is much easier to play. Since it was late and everyone was in bed, I tried to play at a lower volume...It still sounded great.
Plus, they are very affordable…I will definitely add more of these to my collection!
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snakes
87 posts
Feb 03, 2009
12:22 PM
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For the person that asked about the Promaster... It is very similar to the Bluesmaster, yet has a much heavier feel as the comb is aluminum. It seems a bit louder too (or maybe it is just me). I tried hard to develop an affinity with a Hohner by purchasing several models in several keys (MB, SP20, GM, Bluesband, ProHarp) and will say that I do like the SP20's the best of the Honers. But for my money give me a harp I can play intuitively instead of having to remember that this particular hole gives me problems (on most Hohners I've tried) so I better remember to give it a lot of extra air to pull off the note we want. I hear tell you can replace the reeds on a Bluesmaster with the reed replacement kit for the Promaster. Anybody tried this?
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BluTed
5 posts
Feb 03, 2009
12:57 PM
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Anybody else- especially SP20 players - find the Lee Oskars 'tall in the mouth". I can play them but the holes are bigger, requiring more airflow and they are a bit taller at the business side, which bothers me a little. Also, going from an LO to an SP20 is like throwing a heavy medicine ball at basketball pratice, then picking up a basketball and rocketing it at a teammate. Is suddenly easier to move it around. You get so used to larger air movements that the SP20 becomes a piece of cake - more so than usual.
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tookatooka
99 posts
Feb 03, 2009
2:01 PM
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Yes Snakes. I've retrofitted ProMaster Plates into both the Bushman Delta Frost and the Bluesmaster. There is a very slight difference in the width of the plate and the Promaster Plates have the groove for the Promaster cover plates. But apart from those differences they are a perfect fit. My current favourite is my "C" Bluesmaster fitted with "A" ProMaster plates. The comb accepts the "A" plates fine.
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When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
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