unclevit
2 posts
Jan 25, 2009
6:23 PM
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I have tried to test the sound of 10-hole diatonic, from what I own up-to-date, all Key C (Suzuki : Promasters, Bluesmaster, Hammond, L/O : major diatonics, Hohner : MBs, Special20s) by applying the same blows and draws. I found that S20 gives the best correct do-re-me... sound. All out-of-the-box, no special tuning beforehand. Inputs ?
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Oisin
94 posts
Jan 25, 2009
6:32 PM
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Special 20s are what I use and I have also preferred them over other harps. For some reason I have never blown out a reed on SP20 but I've done so on each of the other Hohners you mention above and also on pro harps and big rivers. I think it's because they are so airtight compared to the others and you don't have to suck and blow as much to get the same volume and tone. Perhaps this extra pressure required to play them affects the pitch?? Only a theory.
Oisin
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MrVerylongusername
125 posts
Jan 25, 2009
6:43 PM
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The Suzukis and Lee Oskars are all equal tempered, the two hohners are close to just intonation. This will effect how you perceive them to be tuned.
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Oisin
95 posts
Jan 25, 2009
7:05 PM
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Now that's a much better answer.
Oisin
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unclevit
3 posts
Jan 25, 2009
7:56 PM
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Tks for valuable inputs. I will also continue to buy/collect/keep Suzuki models (I like their craftmanship ! and beauties ! of top end models) and as well 1847. But my sidearms will be this SP20s for learn/practice. Most of the other harps, not SP20, I tested will fail on draws of 6,7 and 8. A surprise.
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Andrew
89 posts
Jan 26, 2009
1:35 PM
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Allow me to post the cynical reply, and also to bore with yet more guff about oboes.
Whatever instrument you play, you do not blow like a robot and accept whatever note happens to come out. You intonate every note you play to get exactly the note you want. On a flute or an oboe or any other wind instrument there's huge latitude and you practise all your scales and arps slowly making every note you play in tune. You get into the habit of intonating every note you play without thinking about it. My oboe teacher warned me that if you didn't get it exactly right, your listener may not immediately consciously notice, but after a while listening to you will become fatiguing. And this is what I do whether I'm playing an MB or a GM. The other day I was jamming with something on TV that was in the key of E and all I had was my Bb harp, so I played in second position a semi-tone flat.
Now we get to the question of cords. If you've played your harp, whether GM or MB, long enough for the notes to start going flat to different extents, then your cords will all be out of tune anyway. So for me the difference between the tunings is of no interest.
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2009 1:40 PM
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oldwailer
468 posts
Jan 26, 2009
4:34 PM
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Andrew--
1) Go out and get a MB harp that happens to be a good one--better still, get one that has been tuned by a pro to MB tuning standard.
2) Blow a chord on the 123 holes.
3) draw a chord on the 123 holes.
4) do the same thing with any equal tuned harp you have.
Try not to hurt yourself as you careen down the road to the music store to lay in supply of MB's in all keys. . . ;)
In my humble opinion, if you play a harp to the point that ". . .the notes start going flat to different extents. . ." You need to get them tuned!
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Andrew
91 posts
Jan 27, 2009
12:44 AM
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Oldwailer, among other things I refer you to Adam's video where he says use your 3 blow as a reference because it will be more in tune than your two draw. I suspect there are plenty of threads here about it too.
P.S. I own 7 MBs and one GM. If I draw on the 123 holes on my GM and MB in C all I hear is that the MB's 3-draw is a little flat.(and perhaps the GM's 1-draw is a little flat too)
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oldwailer
471 posts
Jan 27, 2009
1:30 AM
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Andrew, I meant no disrespect, and I certainly don't want to start an argument. I was just kidding with my post.
Your post was spot on and I admire that you are able to play a harp a half-tone flat to be in tune. I wouldn't have a clue about how to have that much control over my notes. I'm lucky if I can stay on-key enough to sound decent.
Sorry if I have offended you--I just like to joke around--sometimes maybe too much. . .
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MrVerylongusername
127 posts
Jan 27, 2009
6:19 AM
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A couple of things strike me as odd about this discussion.
The first is that the original poster felt that the MBs were better tuned to the diatonic scale. Remember we're talking out-of-the-box. I pointed out the difference in tuning schemes, but surely an equal tuned harp would be much closer to the "do re mi" as he puts it?
The other is talk about the player compensating for a flat draw reed. Quite simply how? You can change the tone, make it sound thinner, fatter whatever, but you can't raise the pitch of a draw note unless you are playing a valved harp or can hit a bent overblow straight off with that degree of precision. Or are we talking about something else?
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unclevit
4 posts
Jan 27, 2009
6:44 AM
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All inputs are valuable to me. Appreciate them all. Today, I got 2 MB Key C from a local seller. My Do-Re-Mi...testing was done, and to my surprise these 2 harps are in tune (at least for me)! I judge it from my little experience (though I am a retired trumpet player for years) on this blow/draw instrument. To me, out-of-the-box quality depends on factory's QC, and no wonder why players tend to like custom-harps. I am quite lucky as HN's local agent, 5 miles from my home, has kind of a blow/draw testing machine, so you can do any initial test before taking your harp back home.
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Andrew
92 posts
Jan 27, 2009
1:40 PM
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Oldwailer, I wasn't offended, and I apologise for the tone of my posts.
I don't want to pretend I played well a semi-tone flat - most of the notes are available but not all of them: - Holes 1 thru 4 all bend down a semi-tone easily, and you have the 2-hole blow (and the 5-hole blow) for the 7th note, and the 5-hole overblow comes in useful for the tonic. Technically it's playing in 7th position, but if you stick to Holes 1 thru 4 bent and the 2-hole blow, it's not very technical, because you're just playing by ear. When you're accompanying something, it's easier - you kind of get pulled along with it. You could try it out - find a record in the key of E and try and accompany it on a Bb harp.
"The other is talk about the player compensating for a flat draw reed. Quite simply how?"
If you're asking me, that wasn't my slant. I think my slant was (I was thinking about this instead of working today!) we've had the well-tempered piano for 200 years and we're used to hearing the cords played on it, so is such a thing as a MB or an SP20 better (re cords)? My answer is no, because they aren't exactly scientific instruments and they go out of tune when played. Are they poor for melody? No, because we don't play them like automata*. Add to that your valve amp's distortion and your octave pedals and if someone is worried about the differences in tuning between a MB and a GM, Id say don't worry. But you're right - I misread the original post!
*Maybe this is where you are asking how to make a flat note sharp? My answer is you can sharpen any note a little by pushing the tip of your tongue forwards, but of course if the harp is on its way out you can forget it.
Last Edited by on Jan 27, 2009 1:59 PM
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MrVerylongusername
128 posts
Jan 28, 2009
2:31 AM
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Sorry Andrew, I just don't buy that.
If you push your tongue forward on a draw note, all you are doing is altering the tone, by altering the harmonic content; the fundamental pitch remains unchanged.
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Andrew
94 posts
Jan 28, 2009
9:16 AM
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Well it's what my ears tell me, but I'm not insisting I'm right. On the other hand, it's a lot less than a quarter tone, so it may be useless for practical purposes.
I guess, if I'm right, that it would be because we always bend the draw notes down slightly by not pushing our tongue forward, so pushing it forward just reverses that.
It's not just accompanying the key of E on a Bb harp. Don't you find when you've got a recording from the 30s or 40s and it's flat, you're forced to bend the whole thing down when you're accompanying it?
Last Edited by on Jan 28, 2009 9:19 AM
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