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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Big Rivers Leaky?
Big Rivers Leaky?
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mickil
12 posts
Feb 07, 2009
6:21 AM
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Hi,
I've read a few people on this forum who claim that the above mentioned harp is - as the title here says - leaky.
The reason I'm putting up this thread is because, after having been playing on and off for 15 years - I'm not even sure I know anymore what the term means.
Back in the late 90s, about '97 or '98, I messed around a bit with a few Hohners, i.e. a Pro Harp and something else that I can't remember. I got the impression that they took more breath to play than the LOs I also had at the time, but I thought that this was probably because they just had bigger chambers; I'd never even heard of the term 'leaky' with regard to harps. In any case, I thought that the extra work required to play them was well worth the dirty, brassy, big sound that they made. I even managed to get use to protruding reed plates.
A few months ago, after giving up giving up, I came back to the harp and tried a few BRs. I was delighted that they had that same bluesy quality of tone that I remember from my other Hohners. I also have some LOs and there's no question that they're easier to play, but even my LO Bb sounds a bit airy on the lower reeds.
So, here are my questions:
1) Isn't it the case that the lower harps on the lower reeds are always going to sound a bit more airy, or leaky, call it what you will?
2) Are some people mistaking that sound on some Hohners for leakiness, or was I right back in the late 90s with my presumption that they just had bigger chambers and therefore took more breath. On the recent thread 'Best $25 harp: Hering 1923 or Sedel Solist?' Ant138 wrote:
"Stay away from the Big rivers, they are super leaky and they catch any facial hair you might have,they even catch hair if you've shaved the day before. As for the Blues harp,if you ask me their worth the extra,i know Hohner have put up their prices but the Blues harp is a fine harp and probably the most consistant for quality."
I'm not going to disagree with Ant that BRs can catch the odd face hair - although it's not nearly as bad for me as it seems to be for him. What baffles me, though, is how is it that something that is made of ABS plastic can leak more air than a piece of wood that will, if untreated, inevitably change its shape over time? I'm not saying he's wrong, it just doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I wish I could comment more on wooden combs, but the last time I owned a MB, my lips looked like an out-take from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Lastly, here's a couple of reviews I found for BRs, followed by the links to where I found them. I've put them here because they were made either by professionals or by people who started playing harp before most of us were born.
This first from a professional named Joe Lee Bush. By the way, he was a pupil of Little Walter:
"If you can't get an "in tune" sound with the Big River, then you can't play. That wooden comb stuff is dead, gents, and good riddance. I've been blowing this blues since 1948 and this harp gets it done. Just change the coverplates and it will be compact enough."
http://folk-instruments.musiciansfriend.com/product/Hohner-59020-Big-River-Harmonica?sku=420564&src=3WBZ4DS&ZYXSEM=0
If you want to check out Joe's credentials then then take a look at this page:
http://www.purevolume.com/dougjoeleebush
And then there's this:
"I have been an old time blues player for 40 years and this was the type of harmonica I used when I was in my prime. I would like anyone that wants to start the harmonica to try this."
http://www.music123.com/Hohner-590-20-Big-River-Harmonica-420564-i1133594.Music123#reviews
So, there we have it. Will someone tell me whether or not, after all these years, I don't know the difference between a leaky, hissy harp and one that just takes more air to play. Seriously, I really don't know if I have properly understood how to make the distinction. I should also say that I don't have any problems with playing BRs, except for the beard thing.
Thanks. I look forward to your comments.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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eharp
204 posts
Feb 07, 2009
7:22 AM
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from a quick read, mickil, it seems as if you think the big river isnt as bad as others are saying. i could even go as far as to say you like them.
i would then suggest you forget what the negative opinions are. if you like it- go for it!
every one finds a brand they love. and there are folks out there that will have had a bad harp of your favorite flavor and would never recommend it.
i always say, if you find one that fits what you want a harp to be to continue on with it. dont be pressured into going against your feelings.
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mickil
13 posts
Feb 07, 2009
8:11 AM
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@ eharp: You missed the point I was trying to make. Yeah sure, I like BRs, but I could've called this thread 'How do you know if a harp is leaky?' and used Ant's comments as an example.
I'm not worried about what others say about my harp of choice; I couldn't care less. Rather, I asked two specific questions as to what qualifies leakiness, as much to make myself more informed as anything else. I surrounded the questions with perfectly valid points, and - like I say - I'm just trying to make myself a bit more informed about the whole thing. After all, that is the point of this forum.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Chris Jones
23 posts
Feb 07, 2009
8:33 AM
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A harp that takes more breath to get a note compared to others is "leaky". I've tried Big Rivers and agree they are leaky, it's really not an issue if you can deal with it. If Big Rivers were all that was available to me, I would just tweak the things and rock on. With all the choices out there, I'm not gonna correct manufacturers "mistakes" and give em good money.
Tone aside, take a Suzuki Bluesmaster and Big River wail on a 2 draw and note the different amount of energy required. Nothing wrong with Big Rivers if you are accustomed to them, leakiness is irellevant if you can work around it.
Answer to Question 1 is No. See Adams early lessons on how to get a good 2 and 1 hole draw.
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 8:40 AM
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Ant138
64 posts
Feb 07, 2009
9:04 AM
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What i mean when i describe a harp as leaky is it takes alot more air to get a sound out of the harp, a bit like a really cheap £2 toy harp, maybe i should be saying its the response of the harp thats the problem. I find it takes alot of effot to get the various bends on a Big River, and when your jammin with a friend for a couple of hours the extra effot just wipes me out,and when the price is around £16,i would just rather spend an extra £5 or so on a better harp. Thats just me though, if you like em stick with them, alot of people slate the Hohner Blues Harp but i love them.
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 9:10 AM
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isaacullah
37 posts
Feb 07, 2009
10:20 AM
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IMO, "Leakiness" is just that: Air leaking out of the harp from orifices that are not directly driving the reed. (sorry, I just HAD to use the term "orifices":) )
I've personally seen and corrected three major sources of this misdirected airflow on cheaper (and even better) quality harps. Following are the causes and my suggested solutions of Harp "Leakiness":
1) The reed plates do not sit flush with the comb.
Solution: make sure the reed plates are absolutely flat where they meet the comb, and make sure the comb is also absolutely flat.
Check the reed-plate for "warping" by laying it, reed-side up, on a flat surface. Press down lightly on one end, and then tap the other end with your other hand. If you feel any movement, the reed-plate is warped. Hold it up to the light while looking at the long edge, edge on. If you can see how it's warped, try to GENTLY bend it in the opposite direction (if the harp is "skewed" diagonally, this is kind of a longitudinal twisting. If it is just "bent" horizontally, then this is just unbending). Do this slowly, and recheck as you go. Make sure you check from both ends!
If the comb is wooden or is machined non-injection-molded plastic (like on the Huang Star Performers), it will need to be sanded flat. There may be saw marks, sand paper gouges, and other deformities on the comb that will allow air to pass through. Use super high grit sandpaper (some recommend the wet/dry stuff, but I use "normal" sandpaper). Put down the sheet of sand paper on a super flat surface, and gently start sanding down the comb where it meets the reed-plates. As you go, look at the surface you are sanding from time to time, and notice "high spots" which are being currently sanded down and "low spots" which you have yet to reach. When there are no "low spots" left, you are done. Do the other side.
I also sometimes sand down the back of the draw reed plate in the same manner. I attach it to a sanding block with blue sticky tack (for hanging posters). You'd be amazed at how many low spots you find on a supposedly "flat" reed plate. I'll also burnish the mating points of the blow reed-plate where it contacts the comb (with a que-tip)...
DON'T use micropore. Unless you are super super super careful, it will fuck-up your harp bad. You'll get stick stuff on the reeds which will cause them to jam, and you just can't get it off afterward if you choose to do so (believe me I've tried!). It will also absorb moisture as you play, which won't dry out as quickly as it would normally, and will start to corrode your reed-plates. This of course will eventually cause MORE leakiness, and now you are screwed because you can't get the damn micropore off to fix the thing! The idea of using micropore is to make a "gasket" that fills in any comb and/or reed-plate imperfections, thereby blocking any gaps where air was escaping. Trust me, sanding is much better, much more permanent solution.
2) Air escapes around the edges of the reed because the reedslots are too big.
Solution: Learn how to emboss, figure out the way that works best for you, and emboss those reedslots. Some resources to search out for are Dave Payne's and Chris Michaleks YouTube vids, Kenya Pollards articles (at the monster harp workbench) in Mel Bay's Harmonica Sessions e-zine, and Winslow Yerxa's Harmonica for Dummies book (which is fan-freaking-tastic).
3) Reedplate screws are screwed too tight causing local deformation of the reed-plate (this was first brought to my attention by a series of Dave Payne posts on Harp-l).
Solution: This one is easy! When screwing on reed-plates AND coverplates, tighten the screws gently JUST UNTIL you start to feel resistance. Trust me, if both the reedplates and the comb are flat (as described in step 1) this is the moment where the everything is flush and held together with the perfect amount of pressure. Too little torque on those screws and the air pressure built up on the holes while playing can force the reedplates away from the combs. Too much torque, and there will be local deformation (inverted cones) of the reedplates around the screws, which can cause gaps to occur where air can leak out.
Of course here is a disclaimer. These are solutions which I have found to work for me. There is no guarantee that they will work for you too, but I would think they probably would. I am a pretty handy guy, but I screwed up several harps (mostly junkers) before I obtained the necessary skills and techniques to pull off these repairs. If you don't feel like you have these skills, please don;t try these things on you nice harps and then blame me! I warned ya!
Cheers,
Isaac
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
Last Edited by on Feb 07, 2009 10:29 AM
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mickil
14 posts
Feb 07, 2009
12:28 PM
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Thanks for those comments.
I am now in no doubt that I didn't fully understand leakiness / responsiveness. I've certainly been given some food for thought. It will take a while to investigate all those resources that isaacullah has pointed me to.
I'm still not sure whether louder harps take more air because they ARE louder, and whether that's the trade-off.
Anyway, I've just cracked open my first cold one of the night, so I'll come back later and check this board.
Cheers fellas!
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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mr_so&so
27 posts
Feb 07, 2009
3:50 PM
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With the disclaimer that I am in the like-BR camp, here are my 2 cents worth. I'm someone who is still developing the basic skills of bending and overblowing, but am getting there. I constantly find that what is at first difficult and requires "a lot of air", later becomes much easier as skills are refined. I personally don't notice much difference between the effort it takes to do clean 2-draws on BR vs. Bluesmaster either, if that is your gold standard for leakiness.
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mickil
15 posts
Feb 08, 2009
3:41 AM
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@ mr so&so: I'm going off my own topic a bit here. I'm still firmly in the BR camp, but if you're still developing bending and overblowing, there are probably easier harps to learn that stuff on.
The other day, I got a Seydel Blues Session - key of Bb - just to try one out. The tone is too nice for my taste, but the 10-hole blow bend is so easy that you feel like you could do it in your sleep; also, I read somewhere that Charlie Musslewhite reckons they're the easiest out of the box harps to OB on. After you've cracked something on one harp, I think it's pretty easy to do it on another.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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jbone
10 posts
Feb 08, 2009
8:34 AM
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i have made good ude of the br for several years. granted, i am using different brands at the moment but the br has served me well. it does take more ir- slightly more- to make one sound, but to me the result has been well worth it. a bigger brassier sound.
an injection molded comb and a flat reedplate, even with just 3 screws holding it on, won't necessarily leak around the edges if as isaacullah pointed out, you don't over tighten them. the cover plate screws, same way, not too tight!
i think the mistake people make is that the br is slightly bigger and the chambers likewise, so it takes some getting used to them. i have played br's exclusively all night and yes, i was tired after, but i played 2 other brand harps for 2 sets last night and i was tired. no real difference in the long run.
the other consideration- if you like the br- is that you can order ms reed plates and replace the stock plates with the slightly thicker ms plates. it's a bit ironic, i spent $17 on a br and then $20 on the ms plates, but that harp lasted a good long time for me and was very responsive.
to me the bigger sound is worth it. but i admit, i sought different harps when hohner jacked prices to u.s. customers last year, not once but twice! economics keep me shopping for deals. one of my criteria these days is replaceable reedplates. that keeps br in the running depending on what happens with other makers' pricing in the future. availability is another issue. if i love a particular brand harp, i may be able to wait for parts. or i may not. that's sort of where i ended up getting a br in the first place, i needed a harp and the store had only a br in that key! but i did learn to appreciate the plusses of the br and no regrets.
they don't necessarily "leak" imo. they take a bit more air to bring out their best. gapping can be a plus also.
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