Preston
121 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:24 AM
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For the music theory challenged:
Alright fellas (and gals too) I wanted to post this on here for the people who don't know how all of the positions got there number, and are lost at figuring out which harp you need to play in a key in a certain position. I'm sure there are several of you who already know this, but this is for the music theory challenged. I learned the circle of fifths a couple of months back, and I knew that it directly related to all the positions, but I just couldn't quite figure out what it was. It was like a word on the tip of my tongue that I couldn't spit out. Then it finally clicked last week.
Anyway, I've got a quick easy way to end the frustration. First you've got to learn the circle of fifths. O.K, so maybe that's not quick and easy, but it doesn't take that long to do it. Here's a link another guy posted awhile back that will help you out
http://www.circle-of-fifths.net/learn.html
If the band calls out Key of E, and you want to play second position, you find the E and count backwards (counterclockwise) 1 spot. The key you start from is 1 so then you only move 1 space. 1+1=2 (or second position).
If that isn't real clear let me show with a larger number.
Band calls out key of E and you want to play 5th position. E gets the 1 count, then go counterclockwise around the circle 4 spaces. (1 + 4 =5, or 5th position)you need a C harp.
If you are a player that memorizes positions and think in terms of harp holes more than notes, I've got a scenario for that as well, but you still need to memorize the circle of 5ths.
Once you have the layout memorized you need to invision this circle of fifths as smaller circle INSIDE the face of a round clock. Depending on what harp you want to work with, rotate the circle of fifths so that key of that harp lines up with 1:00 on the clock face.
Using a D harp, you spin the Circle until D is at 1:00. 1:00 is 1st position. 2:00 is 2nd position and sure enough, the key of A is setting on 2:00. Then there is the key of E setting on 3:00. 3:00 is third position. And so on around it goes, giving you every key for every position.
It's easy once it falls into place. I hope I explained it clearly enough. It was just a light bulb that came on for me and I felt like sharing with you guys.
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Andrew
106 posts
Feb 09, 2009
11:52 AM
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"Band calls out key of E and you want to play 5th position"
I can recommend a good psychiatrist.
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Preston
122 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:30 PM
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I prefer one oxycodon and a beer over a shrink.
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 12:31 PM
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mickil
18 posts
Feb 09, 2009
12:53 PM
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Easiest way I know to count round the circle of 5ths is by just counting up from C:
C - G - D - A - E - B - F# - C# (Db) - Ab - Eb - Bb - F and then back to C.
If you're familiar with a keyboard's layout, it's not too hard to work out.
P.S. Me, I prefer Prozac.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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Preston
123 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:20 PM
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Yeah, I get what you are saying if you already know what harp you have in your hand, and are just looking for key in a given position. I'm a visual person, so it helps me to relate it to something I can see in my head (like a clock), instead of standing there counting on my fingers. (I run out of ideas at 10 anyway unless my shoes are off)
My intent was find a quick way to grab a harp if you are a multiple position player, and don't have them all committed to memory. I can name the harp I need in any key for 2nd because I've committed it to memory. And I have several 3rd positions memorized. However, I'm absolutely lost when it comes to picking a harp for 4th - 12th positions. Counting backwards around the circle of 5ths when you know the key of the song will help you pick a harp faster without memorizing 12 different positions on 12 different harps.
Maybe since I'm theory challenged myself I am making this harder than it is, or I'm not explaining myself correctly when it comes to what I am trying to accomplish here.
Also, I used to think it was called "second position" because the tonic was on the 2 hole draw. I figured they called it "third position" because second was already taken. I had no idea there were twelve positions, and when I found out, I always wondered who decided what position it was going to be called. Not until I learned the circle of 5ths did I get these clarifcations, and I'm guessing there are other amateurs out there like myself that didn't know this either.
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mickil
19 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:44 PM
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@ Preston: just having a little joke. I've only been using this forum for a week or two, and I've been made fun of, rudely (blatently) ignored by one person I took the time to reply to, and have had a lot of thoughtful responses from others, who obviously took time to help me.
I suppose you get rudeness and cliques everywhere. No offence was intended.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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bluzlvr
120 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:50 PM
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As a guitar player, I picture the guitar neck. Once I learned that second position was always the IV chord of the I IV V progression, I just took it from there. For third position, the harp key is always a full step down on the neck from the song key etc.
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Preston
124 posts
Feb 09, 2009
1:51 PM
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Mickil,
No I wasn't offended by what you posted, I just thought maybe my ramblings needed further explanations. Also, I didn't mean to sound like I was snapping back at you. It's hard to hear emotion on this flat computer screen, isn't it?
In fact, most of the time I enjoy smartass comments because I am one myself!
You and I are cool my friend.
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mickil
20 posts
Feb 09, 2009
2:03 PM
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@ Preston: Thanks! Hope to bump into you soon on this virtual reality thing. Take care.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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GermanHarpist
75 posts
Feb 09, 2009
6:03 PM
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Hadn't figured that out yet... Thanks. The clock picture makes it very visual.
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http://www.youtube.com/germanharpist
Last Edited by on Feb 09, 2009 6:04 PM
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mr_so&so
30 posts
Feb 10, 2009
9:57 AM
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For completeness, in a previous thread on this topic Adam put a document that I put together up for free download. It explains the circle of fifths stuff and gives harp tabs for the blues scale and major scales in all 12 positions. Enjoy!
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2009 9:58 AM
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Preston
129 posts
Feb 10, 2009
10:18 AM
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Mr. So & So,
Awesome. That is just what I was looking for. I can't believed I missed it when Adam mentioned it last time. Good work.
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Preston
130 posts
Feb 10, 2009
11:54 AM
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@ Mr. So & So:
I was looking through your tables, (I know I should be working, but I need a break!)and I have a question I need you to answer for me.
For example let's talk about 12th position blues scale. You have the flat 5th X'd out, and you have a foot note saying that the minor pentatonic is all that is available.
If we are talking cross harp (2nd position) key of G on a C harp, the flat 5th is the Db note.
If you're talking Flat First (12th position) key of G on a D harp, the flat 5th is still the Db note, that didn't change just because we changed harps and positions. Using the middle octave for this example, you can find the Db note at 7 draw on the D harp.
I don't have any theory other than what I have read on the internet, I am self taught. Can you explain to me in theory terms why it isn't the flat 5th in 12th Position?
Thanks in advance
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mickil
22 posts
Feb 10, 2009
5:08 PM
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I couldn't resist jumping in here. I've done sod all all day.
That table only relates to a C harp. If you move the whole thing up a tone and write it all out again for a D harp, the Db becomes an Eb.
Hope this makes it clearer.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
Last Edited by on Feb 10, 2009 5:10 PM
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Preston
131 posts
Feb 11, 2009
6:34 AM
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Well, Mickil, now I'm lost.
If the table relates to only a C harp, then 12th position is the Key of F. The flat 5th of the F Blues Scale is B. That note would be found at 3 draw natural (unbent) or 7 draw. So I know the note exists on the harp, I'm trying to figure out why it isn't the flat 5th in 12th position. It is marked out as X on the table.
Does that make sense?
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mickil
23 posts
Feb 11, 2009
7:28 AM
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I'm not surprised you're lost: that table has a mistake in it!
12th position on a C harp IS F; and B (or to be pedantic Cb) IS the flat 5th of F; furthermore, sure, it's on the unbent 3 draw.
You are right and the table is wrong. If anyone can prove otherwise, I've gone mad and so have you, and I'll eat my harp.
I can't see myself going beyond 3rd position, but those scales are a brilliant workout for intonation on bent notes; not much fun, but good for technique.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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wheezer
48 posts
Feb 11, 2009
8:53 AM
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Thanks Preston. That information is greatly appreciated.
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Preston
132 posts
Feb 11, 2009
8:57 AM
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@ Wheeser: Your welcome
@Mickil, I was initially like you thinking I probably only needed the 3 positions, and here's how I ended up exploring other positions: when the song changes keys, you can get away with playing corresponding position riffs within that change.
In playing cross harp, when the IV chord comes around I toss in some notes and riffs I would normally play in first position and it sounds good. For example, you can hang out and wail on the four overblow in the IV chord, even though you can only get away with breezing over it in the other chords.
So then I started working on 1st position a little bit more and I noticed the root of the IV chord for first position was the 2draw full step bend and the 5 draw wich is also the root to 12th position. So then I was off learning 12position stuff so I had inspiration for 1st position. And on and on it snowballed....
Now I'm not worth a shit at playing any of these positions but you get the picture of how it could be handy to commit some of this to memory.
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2009 8:58 AM
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mr_so&so
31 posts
Feb 11, 2009
10:00 AM
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@Preston
Dang. Looks like Adam posted the wrong version of the document. The diatonic is fully chromatic with the addition of bends and overbends to fill it out. I had a brain glitch when I was first working this out and thought that there were some missing notes. I corrected this.
I didn't check the download myself. So, Adam, please put the corrected version up. I'll email him too....
Update: I sent Adam the correct version. Hopefully that will be up soon. As a bonus, it has some added material ... I tabbed out a bunch of the common chords for the first three positions.
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2009 12:01 PM
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mr_so&so
32 posts
Feb 11, 2009
10:19 AM
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@mickil
All the tables in the document are for any key harp, since the layout of notes is the same on all major diatonic harps. The circle of fifths tells you what key you are playing in when you select a harp and position, as Preston has outlined. E.g. if you are using a Bb harp and playing 12th position, then you're playing in Eb.
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mickil
24 posts
Feb 11, 2009
10:39 AM
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@ Preston: "Now I'm not worth a shit at playing any of these positions..." That's funny, it made me laugh anyway. It's what I'm afraid of, but I would hope that with practice just knowing how to get all those scales might rescue me from some embarrasing shit on stage.
@ mr so&so: Yeah, I know, but thanks anyway. I thought that Preston may have been missing that in something he said above, that's why I tried to clarify that it only relates to a C harp insofar as 1st position on a C will always be C, and 1st position on a D will always be D, etc. Perhaps I didn't word it very well.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2009 10:42 AM
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mr_so&so
33 posts
Feb 12, 2009
9:15 AM
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Great news. Adam has kindly uploaded the corrected
Harmonica Positions PDF (free download). As a bonus, I've added some new tabs for various blues chords, including those mentioned in Adam's MBH Eight Bar Blues Progressions video, and some minor chords. Enjoy.
Last Edited by on Feb 12, 2009 9:21 AM
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