harmonicanick
184 posts
Mar 14, 2009
3:00 AM
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I was watching Adam's youtube lesson (.014)
about the blues scale, and realised to my shame that I had been playing for many years and did not know it.
Though I have been incorporating those notes in my playing I had not seen or heard them in that structured organised way.
This is very basic stuff for you guys, but speaking as someone who is a completely self-taught improviser it comes as a bit of wake-up call, to actually have to stucture your playing in this way, rather than play by instinct.
So its:
2 draw....no probs
3 draw bent (blue third) as in spoonful riff....no prbs
4 blow....no probs
4 draw bend...not so easy (Adam confirms that!)
4 draw
5 draw
6 blow
Now I'm gonna practise that until I can nail it real fast up and down with each note precise
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Scoltx
42 posts
Mar 14, 2009
7:47 AM
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You can supplement what you've learned with some of David Barrett's books. He goes further in depth on the subjects of the blues scale, crossharp scale and playing the different positions (well 1st, 2nd, and 3rd anyway).
The book I have of his is "Mel Bay's Complete Classic Chicago Blues Harp". Comes with a CD of the examples in the book as well.
I've been working with it again lately on high end harp scales and licks, something I had mostly avoided.
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RyanMortos
103 posts
Mar 16, 2009
7:37 AM
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This is what Im working on. Practicing the blues scale a lot & the 12 bar blues counting.
Im still trying to get to the point where I can jam. I so much want to join in on jam sessions with everyone on skype & in town with the HARP group but having only practicing for a few months I suppose I need lots more woodshedding before I can join in & offer something.
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~Ryan
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Miles Dewar
242 posts
Mar 16, 2009
8:18 AM
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Just Remember, you can make thousands of licks and riffs from just the Blues Scale alone.
Gussow's lesson on the blues scale helped me more than anything else. It helped me find all sorts of licks and riffs that i was spending all day online searching for. And I was "creating" them, instead of feeling like i was just copying.
I made a small job for myself. I said that i MUST make at least 5 new rifs or licks a day out of the blues scale. The first day i came up with 40! -easy stuff, just get to it-
I've come up with probably somewhere around a little less than a hundred already. If you just sit down, start from the 2draw, then use the 3draw, play with those a little, then add the 4blow, and use those three notes, then add the 4draw-bent, play with it.....etc...... you'll be amazed at how much stuff you will come up with.
Start out with just the 2 draw and play with it rythmically...tonguing it to add a little bit of "jazziness" to it. This is how i used to play along with jam tracks when i just started.... Just tongue the root of the chord you are on
I- 2 draw
IV- 4 blow
V- 1draw or 4draw
Try this i guarantee you it will put a fire under your butt. just feel the music and move to it...and then use your tongue. Easy as pie...and as a beginner just starting out it is something that will sound more like "music" rather than practicing a bunch of riffs and licks. It helped me get more in tune with the time.
Keep Harpin' Brother
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---Go Bears!!! (Richard Dent for Hall of Fame)---
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Jim Rumbaugh
12 posts
Mar 16, 2009
10:25 AM
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harmonicanick
More power to you. I've been at it 8 years and just this year learned the EXACT same scale you just posted. If you are like me, you will want to add -2'' (2 draw bent a whole step) and -1 (1 draw). That's the next step in expanding past the 1 octave scale.
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Preston
199 posts
Mar 16, 2009
10:45 AM
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This thread is very interesting to me. I don't mean any offense to you guys that didn't know this scale, but I am amazed that you made it this long without learning it. The scale is one of the first things I learned. And it's fundamental to playing the blues because it is......well, it's the BLUES scale!
So now I am curious: Are you guys building solos and 12 bar progressions without the scale as a building block? If you've got along this long without it, you still must be doing something right. I'm interested to know what your forumlas have been without it.
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MJ
2 posts
Mar 16, 2009
11:07 AM
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Here is a youtibe video that will give a new outlook to 12 yearolds.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZz5Iocp5v8#
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mr_so&so
52 posts
Mar 16, 2009
11:11 AM
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Like Preston, I use the blues scale as a starting point for everything. I also second Preston's question and curiosity.
For me, it's especially useful for learning new positions. Third position has a fairly easy (just bends), continuous two-octave blues scale, for example. I'm currently using it to work on some first position stuff in the upper octave (again just bends required).
Finally, and at the risk of overly flogging this since I've mentioned it in several previous threads, Adam offers a free download from his TradeBit site that gives you the blues scales in all the octaves of all the positions here.
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harmonicanick
187 posts
Mar 16, 2009
11:25 AM
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Guys,
I started playing at 14 and am now 58 and never a blues scale in sight until now!!
I was a pro drummer in the 70's but had a sports accident which ended that avenue of pleasure..
But i've always played the harp and I have played with many bands over the years but never bothered with actually describing what I do, or never knowing what I do is the right way of putting it lol.
I have taught myself loads of licks and can play fast
Here's a couple of crappy videos of me playing at a summer shindig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gTjEJxJ6GQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edH3Gzup988
Sorry about the 2nd one being sideways but my neighbour had the camera and he was hammered!!
thanks for the other helpful titbits
Nick
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RyanMortos
104 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:01 PM
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Miles (or anyone),
Do you always end up playing at least one 2 draw in the first chord, 4 blow in the fourth chord, and 4 draw in the 5th chord or are there times when jamming with the blues okay to not hit one of these in a chord? Think I read somewhere that the chords should at least end on those notes? Should they always? You can do whatcha like while playing along as long as you end on the appropriate note for the chord?
Sorry for my noobish questioning, lol.
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~Ryan
PA
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Preston
201 posts
Mar 16, 2009
2:33 PM
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Well Ryan, for us guys starting out, ending on the root note will give you a feeling of "resolution", and it definetely makes it sound like you know what you are doing, if you hit the correct root note in the correct chord.
However, one of our resident professionals, Buddha, once challenged us to improvise without ever hitting the root note as an exercise. So technically, you don't have to end on the root note, but any other note is going to leave you with a feeling of "tension". (I really like the sound/feeling you get ending on the flat 7th, or the 2 draw whole step bend if we are talking 2nd position).
Any note will really work in any chord, there isn't any that are totally off limits, but there are some that you can't wail on or stay on longer than a quarter note or they start clashing.
Another thing to remember when you are jamming is that the root of the I chord will sound good in ANY Chord. It is always a safe spot if you lose your place. The root of the IV chord (4draw if we are talking 2nd position) is a perfect fifth above the I Chord, and it will always "harmonize" and sound good over any chord as well. It is a safe spot too, but if you hit it at the end of the song it will definetely leave a feeling of tension.
The 4 blow (root of the IV Chord) will clash in the I Chord and sound shitty if you hang out on it too long. Use it as a quick step to get to another note and don't linger or wail on it. It is also the flat 7th of the 4 chord, so you can use it there, but I've personally don't think it sounds to good to hang out on it in that chord either.
Is that clear as mud?
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mickil
89 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:01 PM
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Ryan,
I grew up learning classical piano, learning a load of theory stuff along the way. Now, I can't improvise on piano if you put a gun to my head.
I know that the description that Preston just gave is a good way for a lot of people to learn how to figure that stuff out. But for me, at least on harp, I find it easier to 'speak' if I just don't think about that stuff and use my ear instead.
Sure, it's good to know theory, but - at least for some - it can ruin creativity when it becomes an end in itself.
What prompted me to write this post was when you said, '...or are there times when jamming with the blues okay to not hit one of these in a chord?'
Hell, as long as you think it sounds good, that's all that matters.
Mick
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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harmonicanick
188 posts
Mar 16, 2009
3:48 PM
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I will shut up and stop wasting your time...
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RyanMortos
105 posts
Mar 17, 2009
6:09 AM
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Thanks for the tips guys. I can feel myself getting closer to 'getting it' . At least now I think I know what I need to practice to reach that goal to jam with our without blues music playing.
Harmonicanick, I enjoyed the videos you shared. Im sorry if I hijacked your thread, that wasnt my intention. Im practicing the same thing a lot right now hoping to solve some things for myself.
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~Ryan
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Preston
202 posts
Mar 17, 2009
6:30 AM
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You're not wasting our time Nick, I love hearing how others approach it. I think there's something to be learned from everybody, no matter what level they are.
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Jim Rumbaugh
13 posts
Mar 17, 2009
10:01 AM
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Preston asked,"how do you do a solo without the blues scale?"
The answer is, you use a non blues scale. Beginners don't do bent notes well. And once bent notes come, hitting a bent note on pitch comes later. A scale I formerly used was:
-2 -3 4 -4 5 -5 6
Now I flat the -3 and leave out the 5.
( well, "sometimes" I use 5 blow )
Also, an intro lick would be -1 2 -2. Now instead of the 2 blow, I use the -2 bent down a step ( -2'')
The former scales are not wrong. They just do not sound bluesy.
But just to confuse things. Depending on the tune, sometimes I find my original scales sound better. It's kinda like the difference between a happy country tune and a sad blues tune.
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mickil
91 posts
Mar 17, 2009
11:07 AM
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Yeah, you're not wasting anyone's time. I thought maybe my post sounded a bit lofty; I didn't mean it too. This thread just got me thinking about how I was always so cr*p at playing piano blues, even though I got the theory and technique to play the notes. Am I just being paranoid about the 'lofty' bit? Probably.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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harmonicanick
189 posts
Mar 17, 2009
11:28 AM
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no its cool mickil, you are just a bit paranoid :-)
On another matter; you obviously are a Zappa fanatic!
Well I've just got a couple of tickets for Zappa plays Zappa (Dweezil and a 12 piece band I believe) when they tour UK in June.
Have you seen our man's son live? I've got to say that my mouth is watering at the prospect...
My wife said to me last night
'Will I like it if I come with you; perhaps you could play me some Zappa now'...well, what do you put on I ask you???? Thats a dilemma any suggestions?
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mickil
92 posts
Mar 17, 2009
11:55 AM
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Nick, I've got to admit to being a bit of a fraud when it comes to Zappa. When I was a college boy and had to write my final thesis, I chose to write about him because of this paradox: Rock, to a large extent, relies on conformity of style to make money. Zappa would throw in every style on the same album and it would still sell like hot cakes and sound brilliant. Live At The Roxy is my favorite that I know of his stuff. Bebop Tango on that album is fantastic. I use that quote cos I thought it made more sense than all the cr*p I had read in three years put together. Now you've got me in the mind to find some of his stuff on YT. Play your Mrs that Bebop Tango. Here's a live version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkyOOqWYNqQ&feature=related
At least she'll know what she's letting herself in for. LOL. Mick
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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gorignak
20 posts
Mar 17, 2009
3:59 PM
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harmonicanick, I find the best song when introducing people to Zappa is Muffin Man. It's not too weird to push people away, but yet it still warns them what to expect on the next song.
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harmonicanick
191 posts
Mar 17, 2009
5:14 PM
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Mick there is nothing fraudulent about quoting the most talented composer of the 20C
Roxy and Elsewhere is my favorite as well but I have most of his stuff.
The best is 6 volume live cd's 'you can't do that on stage anymore'
I think my Mrs would be scared by the evolved bebop tango event! So maybe I will hit her with Muffin Man Gori but thanks anyway.
PS I have instucted my daughter to play 'Watermelon in Easterhay' at my funeral after she has chucked all my harps in!!
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mickil
95 posts
Mar 18, 2009
8:10 AM
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Nick, Funny that. Only the other week I was saying to my mum that when I kick the bucket I want to be buried with a Big River, along with one of those non-corrosive Seydels. I think she thought I was joking!
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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RyanMortos
106 posts
Mar 18, 2009
8:40 PM
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I should probably start my own questions from someone who's been playing less then 6 months thread, haha.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds to me that the key to improvised jamming is counting 12 bar blues till you can sense changes, practicing playing the blues scale, and then finally throw on some music and keep the rhythm of the song while attempting to play notes from the blues scale that sound good along with it?
I attempt to do all different patterns (like Adam suggests in video 014 and 015) with the blues scale but it doesn't usually sound very good. I'm thinking part is keeping a rhythm which I guess comes from playing along with blues songs for a while?
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~Ryan
PA
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Preston
213 posts
Mar 19, 2009
5:24 AM
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I think you've hit the nail on the head Ryan. That's the same formula that seems to be working for me anyway.
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harmonicanick
196 posts
Mar 19, 2009
10:10 AM
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Ryan if you are in the right key for the music and playing in 2nd postion (A harp for blues in E) then whatever notes you play will be in tune, so go for it and have fun!
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RyanMortos
109 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:02 PM
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Perhaps I'm caught up in counting too much? I end up worrying what chord I'm on and what the root note is. When I free jam I get a very 1,2,3,4 or 1,2,2,3,3 beat. One thing I notice is when others jam over stuff they play much faster, maybe that's part of my problem.
Funny, I picked up the Mojo 1.02 lesson and pretty much was playing it right away with the tab in front of me but I can't figure this part out. Perhaps I just need to imitate the professionals more often and eventually their licks will flow into my jamming? Or is there a certain amount of time you play the harmonica before you can go out in a jam session atmosphere and play something creative yet sensible?
Thanks,
Back to practicing...
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~Ryan
PA
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RyanMortos
111 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:25 PM
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I think part of it is I'm trying to fit everything I do into measures. So, I'm keeping my improv to between 1 and 8 notes then next measure. Perhaps I need to just play & keep in mind what measure I'm in.
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~Ryan
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harmonicanick
205 posts
Mar 24, 2009
2:05 AM
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Ryan,
Yes, practice learning the pro's chops and hear how they solo, hear how they sit back & leave pockets of space.Practice timing till it becomes part of your soul...and then you don't have to concentrate! Your own technique will evolve as you put in the woodshed time.
To me it's like scaffolding on the side of a building, to draw an analogy. There is the first ladder at the bottom and thats where you pick up your first single note on not hole 1, but 2 and then 3.
You ascend the ladder to the first level which you walk along getting more single notes and bends and then another ladder...so simply its learning then plateau, learning then plateau, all through your life!
Eventually, and how long that will be depends entirely on you, you will get to a plateau which will be the best!
If you go to jam sessions then great but you are then locked in with other musicians with other agendas.
Try going to'blues' jams if you can and then you can jam in with a 12 bar blues. As long as you are in the right key for the tune in 2nd position..go for it and as Adam says I think in one of his lessons, don't be afraid to make mistakes, everyone does and if you carry on the audience doesent notice.
Good luck Nick
PS My neighbour, who I gave a first lesson to 2 weeks ago,
just got his first hole 2 single note..he's chuffed to bits!
Last Edited by on Mar 24, 2009 2:08 AM
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mickil
118 posts
Mar 24, 2009
3:12 AM
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Ryan, just to add to what Nick has said. Here's how I think about being on the 'wrong' note for any given chord.
Let's say that you're playing the right key harp for the song. All the notes you're playing are either going to be a part of the chord that you're on, i.e. the 1st, 3rd and 5th, or they're going to be the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th of that chord.
All those other notes, the 2nd, etc, are tension inducing notes, or dischords that the ear will want to be resolved, or moved up or down to a chord tone - the 7th being the most obvious example.
If you're playing a wrong note, as long as your ear can hear what the underlying chord is, you're just creating tension for the listener. It's only if you don't resolve it in a reasonable length of time that it will sound wrong.
Think of the first note of Watermelon Man, the minor 7th. In bar 2 it resolves down a 7th to the root; it could just as well have gone up a 2nd to the root and resolved that way, or down via the 6th then 5th, etc. But it does resolve.
I hope I'm being clear and not complicating things unnecessarily.
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'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
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