How do you choose a harp for minor keys? (With major key harps.)
I assume that to play 1st position, you simply look at the circle of 5ths and choose the harp that's in the relative major of the minor key. But what about 2nd position, for examole?
I've heard different things: *Drop the "minor" when choosing the harp. For example, if the key is Am, to choose the harp for cross harp, you simply say "A" and pick up the D harp.
*Look at the circle of 5ths and choose the harp that is two steps counterclockwise from the minor key. But do you look at the minor key inside the circle or do you drop the "minor"?
OR WHAT???
Assumming somebdy can answer this, there's still another problem: There is melodic minor, harmonic minor, natural minor and the dorian minor (not a true minor). So how the heck do you play in a minor key with a major harp?!
And what if you have Lee Oskar Natural Minor harps (or whatever those are)? What would you do if the song is in melodic or harmonic minor?!
Yes, that did help some: To choose the major harp for a natural minor key, find that key inside the the circle of 5ths. Am, for example. For 2nd position, move one step counterclockwise, and you see Dm. Drop the "minor" and pick up yor D harp. (Two steps counterclockwise for 3rd position, and so on.) Hmmm...That works out the same as the first "different thing" I mentioned earlier.
What about the melodic and harmonic minors? If you want to play melody, look at the sheet music and figure out which harp would work best. But if you're jamming...?
Ah! Got it!! If the the song is in melodic or harmonic minor, tell the band you have to go to the bathroom!!
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2009 3:44 PM
gene, in answer to your original question...in my opinion....I have all the natural minor keys in my box..its good for jazz..it is quite an outlay of money but well worth it..harmonic minor LO are good and fun as well. remember you play in te key the musician is playing in with nnatural minor..:-) regards nicko
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2009 4:03 PM
Andrew, from what I learnt, the melody - at least in the tradition that these terms came from - uses the melodic minor, i.e. going up the scale, the 6th and 7th are major, but coming down they're minor. Here's one of the most famous and blatant examples; it's at 1:39 and ends at 1:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnbxpvfISkc
The harmonic minor always uses the minor 6th and major 7th because they are the notes that are used in the underlying chords, ergo, 'harmonic minor.' ---------- 'If it sounds GOOD to you, it's bitchen; if it sounds BAD to YOU, it's shitty' - Frank Zappa
When I try to explain the minor scale, I will be writing some things I know that you and other people on the forum already know. I'm just doing it to illustrate. The minor scale takes some notes from the chromatic scale. The chromatic scale has 13 notes which include flats (or sharps) or the white and black keys of the piano. For example, the C major scale just has the 8 diatonic notes of the scale or the white keys on the piano. Like the major scale, the minor scale has 8 notes and begins on a lower octave note and ends on the next higher octave note. But the way in which each scales octave distance is divided up is different and so each scale has different notes. For example, the C chromatic scale ( I'm using a lower-case B for the flat symbol which is not exactly proper-but what the hell) is C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B C. The C major scale is C D E F G A B C (yes, I know we all know that). The C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C. So the C major scale formula is I + II + III+IV + V + VI + VII+I (note that if there's no space between the plus symbol, there are no intervening half-steps). The C minor formula is I + II+bIII + IV + V+bVI + I. I hope that helped( I better stop now before I get confused).
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2009 7:24 PM
The key of Am is considered the easiest minor key to play in on the upper register because you don't have to blow bend to get any half-steps. But I wouldn't play up there for fear of calling dogs from all over the neighborhood. The key of A minor is 4th position on a C harp. Playing with a band you would want use the lower octave scale that goes from the second bend on the 3rd hole to the 6 hole draw. The lower octave scale is 3 hole bent(") 3 draw 4 blow 4 draw 5 blow 5 draw 6 blow 6 draw. The high octave is 6 blow 7 draw 7 blow 8 draw 8 blow 9 draw 9 blow 10 draw. I have heard people refer to the key of E as forth position and the key of Am as 5th position. And I have heard Am called 4th position and E called 5th position. I don't guess it really matters, I just know the key of Am begins on an A and ends on an A. Gindick calls A minor 4th position on a C harp, so if thats wrong,lets blame him. I just edited this post because earlier I did a typo and said the Am scale started on the first bend of the third hole when actually it starts on the second bend on the third hole. It's a whole step bend from B to A so it's the second of the three bends on the 3 hole. As y'all know, there's a half step separating A from B which, of course, is B-flat. Sometimes the wheels in my head don't spin properly.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2009 8:24 AM
OK, that's another one to add to the list (as soon as I start one): Choose the harp in the key that is the relative major of the key of the (minor key) song, and play from the scale -3" -3 4 -4 5 -5 6 -6 and/or 6 -7 7 -8 8 -9 9 -10
Accord to Ricci's video above, that would be 4th position, which is agreement with Gindick.
"Those scales starting with -1 are 3rd position, right?"
Yes: you need the 4-hole and 5-hole overblows in second position - it's not worth the effort. Learn Summertime in 3rd, as Jason suggests - it's a very satisfying thing to do.
Last Edited by on Mar 18, 2009 11:09 PM
It reminds me of the first decent harp instruction book I bought back in the 60's--Tony "Little Sun" Glover's book on Blues Harp.
Tony's advice on playing in minor keys: "You should know better than to play blues in minor keys." ;-) !
That said--I just use the LO Natural minor harps for songs like Summertime--they sound good and are easy to play cross-harp style.
There is another minor LO--the harmonic minor. I have heard it be used very well on YT--like this:
The more I listen to this the more I want to get one--it would be a great change of pace in a blues set!
here's how the Natural Minor sounds in the capable hands of Ron Shellist:
There ain't no rocket science to this stuff--you just get the right harp and jam--unless you wanna be Howard Levey or Chris Michalek or something--LOL!
Excellent - if you want to jam with Hazmat Modine or Emerson Lake and Palmer (I'm not sure which bands play tarantellas)!
(only kidding OW - I might buy one just out of curiosity, but I suspect a chromatic will come higher up on my shopping list)
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2009 1:44 AM
i regularily go to Jazz jam sessions and these are the harps I use: LO natural minor A,B,C,D,E,F,G GM (golden melody) Eb, Bb, C
If you go to jazz sessions beware..you will be 'competing' with sax players who queue up, because there are so many of them! Also jazz musicians are much more unforgiving than bluesos, so as Old Wailer wisely said just get the right harp and have the ability to improvise on a melody and when it comes to your long awaited solo..oh those sax players..also you will need to solo for some time;again unlike blues where less is more, jazz is about self-indulgent improvisation. The up side of jazz jams is they will not have a harp player there before (probably) so it will be different for the musos and for the regular audience God I'm rambling on, cheers, Nick
May I suggest what our group of harpers usually do
play 3rd position
For A minor, grab a G harp, start on 4 draw, work your way up. Forget about holes 1,2,3 until you have 4 through 10 mastered. ( hint: leave out 7 draw )
Classic example, try House of the Rising Sun, starting with the 4 draw.
For Third position, grab a harp 1 step below the key of the tune. Common combos A minor = G harp E minor = D harp D minor - C harp
4 draw to 8 draw is the main octave.
Grab a G harp, start on 4 draw, use holes 4,5,6 and play along with The Harmonica Club's favorite tune at http://hhcwv.com/mp3/bluesismybusiness.mp3
Yes there are other ways, but this is an easy way. I'll go into more details if you wish.
I'm on the same page as you Oldwailer ie I really love my Lee Oskar Natural Minors in Em & Am plus Harmonic Minors in Am & Gm as they really open up a world of new musical experiences. Sure the tunes which are simple to play on these alternate tunings can also be played on standard harps using different positions but with a lot more effort. I prefer to keep it simple.
I think Jim has the best idea. Wouldn't it be more practical to carry a full set of major key harps with a positions chart in your harp case than to buy minor key harps that you may end up rarely using?
I like playing them on their own, for example Summertime in A natural minor...sounds so good and you can get that sad , soulful sound on your own in the woodshed!!
Yes, harmonicanick, but you can play jazz and that's way over my head. You are a better player than me and a lot of other people are. Speaking from personal experience, I received a Lee Oskar minor key harmonica as a gift almost 20 years ago. I'm glad to have it but I can probably count on my fingers and toes the times I've used it. I'm basically a blues guy and the only minor key position I play in very often is 3rd position which is easily obtainable on a major key harp. But yes, songs like Summertime, St. James Infirm'ry, House of the Rising Sun, Greensleeves and others do sound better when played on minor key harp. I like them played solo or with a guitar.
Dan, You can too..just forget all your theory and writing down stuff..I'm a blues guy too.. I have to say my son gave me the whole LO minor set for my 50th so that was cool.. There is plenty of stuff to play along with :-)
Harmonicanick, I'm an older guy too. I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but I didn't start playing harmonica until I was 34 (a little over 20 years ago). I wish I would have started a lot earlier than that. But I might get some more LO minor harps and experiment. I'm always open to learn new things. Maybe an old guy can be taught new tricks. Thank you for your input.
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2009 4:46 PM
Playing the minor stuff on major harps in third position does work fine--if you just want to play single note melodies and riffs--but the natural minor harp can play Summertime while tongue-slapping cool minor chords for rhythm! I think the really good players, like Richard Sleigh, for one, can do a similar thing in 12th position or something--but that is above my head right now.
I am very happy to have an Am and an Em harp--that covers my needs pretty well--but I could always use more!
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2009 6:22 PM
I use both my Em & Am to play Summertime. The Em in 1st position plays Am & sounds more straight ie musical wheras switching to 2nd position on the Am gives it a jazzier sound and allows more improvisation.
I also have a couple of Lee Oskar Melody Makers in G & D. And whilst these harps are intended for 2nd pos use I find that they when used in 1st pos are actually Am & Em and they work well. The MM's are not bad. Get a good rendition of Georgia On My Mind on the G MM played in 3rd pos (D).
I can see the advantage of having Minor scale harps, especially when chording and tongue blocking is factored. For the imediate future, I will be using 3rd and 4th position for minor tunes with my major diatonics.
I have a question for you people with minor harps. How do you choose which harp to use? If the tune is in A minor, do you grab an A minor harp and play it straight? Or perhaps you grab a D minor and play it cross?? or should this be another thread??? Please inform us.
Jim, LO natural minor harps are labeled differently than regular harps. If it says Am on the box--then that means that if you play it crossed it will be in Am. In actual fact--it's a Dm harp played straight.
Aussie and I have gone round the bend with this before--sometimes it makes it hard to think with--but it is the way it is.
Jim : The Lee Oskar Natural Minor Harps whilst labeled in cross harp are also marked each end eg the Em Harp on one end is marked '2nd Em(N)' and on the other end '1st Am(N)'.
It is confusing however they supply an informative brochure with each Lee Oskar Harp which covers Major & Minor Tunings with a guide to Harp Keys and positions to play in other Keys.
The Natural Minors and Melody Makers are designed to play in Cross Harp and are labeled in cross harp key. However I find I play them just as much in 1st and 3rd position.
Oldwailer, I really found it confusing at first especially when trying to work out which harp to buy.
I've been expermenting lately with 4th position which in the case of A minor would be a C harp. I takes some getting used to, but you end up gettin more bang for your buck harp wise the more positions you can play. You can also get some interesting sounds using a minor tuned harp in 3rd position.
Last Edited by on Mar 22, 2009 2:42 PM
