I was just wondering if any of the harp manufacturers will ever jump on the custom harp bandwagon. I'm talking about hiring and training people to crank out custom harps by hand that are on a par with the best custom harps out there today, not just machine made harps like the Marine Band Deluxe that are just a little bit better. Some kind of "custom shop" model of the harp world. I guess if there was a profit to be made they would do it.
it takes TOO long to build a good harp and there are few people who actually know how to do it.
Brad Harrison keeps saying his B-Radical will be coming out soon. That should be one of the best out of the box harps that approach custom class. I've played with his prototypes that were good but they were handmade with reed tweaked by Bradley. I'm anxious to see what the real deal will be like
What's the problem with buy a custom harp from a customizer?
Last Edited by on Mar 19, 2009 1:36 PM
I just TODAY got an email saying it was my last chance to get a custom Harrison Harmonica by December 24th, "2008". What the hell? Little late isn't it? Must be a glitch in his system.
There's nothing wrong with buying a harp from a customizer. It's just a bit circuitous if you think about it: you can buy a lot of different mediocre (or often rather bad) harps. But if you want a good instrument you need to buy a regular one and then give it to someone else who tweaks it for money. It's like if you'd only be able to buy bad cars and you needed to give them to a tuning shop to make them be worth something.
I'd find it better too if the industry could bring out more good harps (maybe just a couple of models from each brand). I'm sure that by producing them in larger numbers they could be offered at a reasonable price.
Guess I'll have to buy a custom harp one day. I wonder how much better they really are compared to a self-tweaked Golden Melody or an out-of-the-box Suzuki Fire Breath.
When a person buys a custom harp from me, they don't send me the harp, they just tell me what they want and I get the harp. I get wholesale prices for most manufacturers which is one reason my prices are slightly lower than most that do what I do.
I can guarantee you that a harp built by a good customizer will be better than anything you can buy and most likely better than anything you can make yourself.
My workshop is essentially a precision machine shop. I have made my own tools made solely for working on harmonicas. I have very specific tools that may do ONE thing and I have different tools for different keys and different harps. In addition to having the absolute right tools for the job, I've been doing this on my own since 1991. I learned from one of the very best in 1988 where I would go to his house several times per week to help and learn. Lastly, I am a very advanced and seasoned player who has pushed the boundries of harmonica playing more than most. I understand exactly what a harp needs to do, should do and CAN do. Other customizers have similar experiences which is why they are good at what they do but to expect Hohner or Seydel etc to employ people to do what we do is not really possible as there are so few of us.
mass-production and customisation are opposites. But I'm guessing bluzlvr is thinking of cost. The cost of one custom harp is not great, and considering how much time and capital someone like Buddha invests, you get amazing value for money. But the problems begin when you want let's say 8 customised harps. Then that runs into money. Is that your angle, bluzlvr?
I find it indeed very strange that a company like Hohner doesn't sell very high-quality harmonicas.
Hohner isn't financially in good shape. Why? Because they are mass producing a mediocre-quality product. A "commodity". Since 1857 Hohner has manufactured more than one billion harmonicas! (In the 60s and 70s Seydel harps were sold by weight and not by quantity!) But the margins on these commodity products are tiny.
I have been asking myself several times why Hohner doesn't upgrade its production line and starts manufacturing premium products with considerably higher margins? Why don't they hire one of the very experienced customizers out there, pay them very very well and set up a semi-automated/semi-handcrafted high-quality production line? Hohner's bottom line would improve immediately (improved pricing power, improved brand name perception, ...). Hohner should certainly be able to broaden the potential market for this kind of product if they estimate that it is presently a bit too small. They could sell these premium harps under a different brand name if they would choose to do so (like Toyota and Lexus).
And of course the harmonica world would be very happy to be offered reasonably priced upscale harps!
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2009 3:20 AM
Its pretty easy to say that, but the bottom line is making money for Hohner. Supply vs Demand, quality vs quantity, its a fine balancing act. I'm sure they have a lot of smart people there, and through market research they have a better handle on how their company can make money than any of us here. Of those billion made how may do you think went into serious harmonica players hands. Why not raise the margin slightly on billions, vs providing a high quality product that they can only sell to the small number of guys participating on forums like this? I think the market sets what will ultimately happen and I tend to agree with Buddha that there is a niche market there for aftermarket customisers, similar to cars.
I think the Deluxe addressed the quality issue to a certain extent, without going all out customised with the associated big price tag attached.
In short, unfortunately I dont think there is the market out there for a big company to be bothered with a high quality product. I know B. Harrison is giving it a go, but lets see what happens.
Having said that, I think Hohner could maybe lift their quality to a Suzuki level, but I guess this involves totally retooling their plant, and the costs must be passed on, or they are out of business, and I seriously dont want to ever see the marine band go out of production.
You could be right, sure! We just don't know. All I know is ...
Some time back I had a detailed look at Hohner's financial reports (publicly available since they are a public company) and I can assure you that they financially are in very bad shape (to put it very very mildly).
I'm afraid they'll have to do something drastic (re-thinking of strategy, market positioning, ... and cost-cutting by even further lowering their product quality certainly isn't an option) sooner rather than later just in order to survive ...
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2009 4:04 AM
having had a couple of richard sleigh's customs some years ago, and at this point just not able to afford any more, i am pretty well stuck with out of box harps. but if i could i certainly would be trying customs from various guys who have sprung up in recent years. a custom is miles above a stock harp.
think about this: IF hohner or another manufacturer did introduce a line of customs, how many of us cheepass harp players would order one? the cost would definitely be higher on a brand name built custom, it would have to be for the maker to cover retool and personnel costs for the upgrade. and something i suspect is true of several customizers at least is, there is a personal touch. a harp is remade for a specific style of playing be it blues or ballads or whatever. it's not just a free-er playing harp that you buy from a sleigh or harrison or buddha, it's the one on one service you get.
i'm patiently awaiting the new lottery to get up and running here in arkansas. then i'll be buying tickets in hopes of winning, not just to get my mitts on some real quality instruments, but that's close to the top of the to-do list.
one reason customizers have business is guys like me. my efforts at doing the finer work on a harp- even just gapping- is just something i have spent enough fruitless time trying to learn, and i have to leave it for the ones who do it well. possibly after i retire- if that ever happens- i'll have the time. maybe i'll still have the eyesight and ear too! meantime i muddle along with stock products and i manage ok. but having had a custom or two, it's hard sometimes to just stay on the path i'm on. part of me is just chomping at the bit to get a few more customs harps!
imho, forget hohner or any manufacturer building anything like a custom, and give these after market guys your business. it's the best bang for the buck if you can afford it.
In these times everyone needs to think about their business very hard (I run my own business). If they are shakey, they seriously might go, I hope not, that would be sad. Instead of the subculture sitting around bagging them because they are the big elephant on the block ( eg apple/computer nerds bagging microsoft ), we will be down the track reminising about the good old days when you could buy a new Hohner Marine Band, not an antique off ebay.
At the same time it is really frustrating when they bring out products like the Bluesblaster, and the new JT-30, and you think a bit more effort to put a good element in this and youve got a great product. ( again I dont know the costs involved in getting a decent crystal, or comparable element made, maybe it would push it past the price point where you can actully get the vintage jt-30 etc, who knows? )
Why does Hohner not bring out a really excellent harp micro and maybe re-brand it to give them some extra pricing power? Their very extensive distribution network is already in place since a long time ...
Hohner already has a guru that knows what needs to be done. Rick Epping is one of the guys that quite a few of us learned from, I know he's aware of the need for better harps. The Marine Band deluxe is hohner's answer to a quality "custom class" harp. It's a very good harp out of the box but still nothing compared to a regular marine band. Even my Lotus model Marine Band at roughly the same price is miles better than the Marine Band deluxe.
There is just not a lot of demand for a serious "pro-level" harmonica. Fender is based in Scottsdale and I have ties to several people there. They said 50% of all bassman sales are sold to harmonica players. Over the course of a few month about two years ago, I was talking to those guys about making a harmonica specific amp. I was working with the R&D guys, I played through a slew of prototype amps and a bunch of new old stock amps from the 50s and 60s. We even discussed selling fender branded harmonicas (Hohner OEM) and true custom harps through their custom shop but in the end, they decided it wasn't worth it because the harmonica market isn't big enough.
The champ 600 is an amp that almost was going to have a harmonica version. I played through several prototypes and even compared it to a few of my boutique harp amps. Even with a few changes to the electronics, they thought it wouldn't be profitable enough.
It's all about money guys and that's sad in a way but I get it. I better to use the boutique guys anyway. Even if Fender had a harp amp that was built to my specs, it still wouldn't be as good as what Brian Purdy could build or even a 1950's original amp.
It's the same with harmonicas, if you can find a few of the 1920-30s Marine Band with the butterfly covers in good condition, they play almost as well as the custom harps. This is one of the reasons that Joe Filisko started building harps. He basically "restores" new harps to 1920's specs.
There is a huge difference in the quality of harps. I have 100's of old reed plates that I use for parts. One day, I built an entire harp from the old reed plates...LOADS better than what I'm typically building. The metal was easier to work with and the reeds are stiffer. What you want to look for are the plates that do not have a number on them. Those are the better foundational harps with stiffer reeds. BTW- the numbers you see on harps are a date stamp 0407 = manufactured in April 2007
My best guess is that it has something to do with the tuning, although most harps are tuned to 444 Hertz instead of 440 like most other musical instruments.
A440 is the cycles per sec that create the frequency or tone that we know as A. The actual true frequency as found in nature is A432 but the standard was changed to A440 in 1953. There are many theories that surround the reason behind this change but you'd need to be part of the "lunatic fringe" like me, to believe them. Personally, I believe them but that for another conversation on a different kind of board.
In a similar way that Om can be seen to be in harmony with the universe, the frequency of 432hz also appears closely connected to the cycles of nature.
In ancient times instruments were tuned to 432hz and the music played was in tune and harmony with nature, people and nature were much more closely connected.
When the note A is tuned to 432hz it can then be taken to lower and higher octaves giving the frequencies 27hz, 54, 108, 216, 864, 1728 etc. The note D also becomes 576hz which at other octaves is 9hz, 18, 36, 72, 144, 288, 1152 etc. The note E becomes 324hz (81, 162, 648, 1296 etc).
Normal human heart rate is 72 bpm (Half of 144, so therefore in harmony with it). But there is more, oh yes, much more. phoarr ! The number of 'cycles' that occur within nature that are harmonic (or fractal) of 432 are innumerable (or at least really, really hard to count, if you want we can always say there are a zillion zillion, but still only one set !)
The cycle of the equinoxes is the apparent rotation of the stars through the sky. It occurs because the Earth spins at a slight angle (a bit like the wobble of a spinning top). That wobble takes 25920 years to complete a full cycle. We measure cycles as a circle of 360 degrees.
25920 / 360 = 72 (Note 'D' when tuned to 432 )
The circle is further divided to give us our measurement of time, 60 minutes in a cycle.
25920 / 60 = 432
The speed of light is 186,000 miles per sec (guess what the square root is) 432 ! 186,000 mps also equals 1 foot per nano second, we can have a look at why imperial measurements are so significant later on.
432hz is literally in harmony with the physical universe. Watch the video and see what happens with the grains of sands as frequencies tuned to A432 are reached.
Music on a basis tone of A=432Hz is more transparent, more marked, clearer, gives an obvious musical picture and the Overtones and undertones moves more freely and can multiply themselves more. Music based on 440Hz represents emotions and locks up the head. By lowering the pitch 440Hz - 8Hz to 432Hz, the music changes. Which first was painful to the ear changes into a beautiful, warm music whereby relaxation is natural. Overtones are decisive for the sound, this holds for instruments as well as the human voice. The piano tuned in A= 440Hz creates an artificial clarity and strengthens the high stress levels of today. The instruments on which Mozart and Verdi composed their masterpieces were in 432Hz -is the same as C=256Hz- pitched. The original Stadivarius violin was developed to resonate at 432Hz.
Last Edited by on Mar 20, 2009 9:23 AM
GermanHarpist, I know it seems crazy but what seems crazy TO ME is that 99% of the planet allows their mind to be controlled by media and other things.
All anyone needs to know can be discovered by listening to silence and feeling the vibrations of nature.
I believe the A432 was changed to A440 to keep people disconnected from true awareness.
well zhin,... theres "science" and theres a video tagged: "resonence 911 9-11 wtc terrorist attack sep.11th bush cheney conspiracy lies war Iraq oil n.w.o. police state thermite".
Zhin, Buddha,... can you explain the science behind the first vid...? As far as I know it has nothing to do with 432Hz or the Om sound - it's just resonance.
'Crazy talk' was maybe not the right expression... I just don't believe in conspiracy theories.
This on the other hand...
"Music on a basis tone of A=432Hz is more transparent, more marked, clearer, gives an obvious musical picture and the Overtones and undertones moves more freely and can multiply themselves more. Music based on 440Hz represents emotions and locks up the head. By lowering the pitch 440Hz - 8Hz to 432Hz, the music changes. Which first was painful to the ear changes into a beautiful, warm music whereby relaxation is natural. Overtones are decisive for the sound, this holds for instruments as well as the human voice. The piano tuned in A= 440Hz creates an artificial clarity and strengthens the high stress levels of today. The instruments on which Mozart and Verdi composed their masterpieces were in 432Hz -is the same as C=256Hz- pitched. The original Stadivarius violin was developed to resonate at 432Hz."
...is a better answer (it actually makes sense...).
turn on your tuner and set it to 432. The tones in the videos will correspond perfectly with certain notes and shapes. It's sound that has manifested into shape. This is the key to universal knowledge. Your mind is controlled, free yourself. All you need to know is in that video.
This is an unexpectedly fascinating subject--I'm just about to re-tune all my harps (if only I knew how to do it well). Of course that would eliminate any chance of jamming with anybody.
That vid with the sand was incredible--like watching aliens land or something!
Buddha, you wrote: "The instruments on which Mozart and Verdi composed their masterpieces were in 432Hz -is the same as C=256Hz- pitched. The original Stadivarius violin was developed to resonate at 432Hz."
What occurs to my addled brain on that is: Who was counting the hertz? Did that technology exist? If they did somehow, with superior ears, arrive at the perfect resonance--how would that have been communicated to us in the now, since we don't have any vinyl from that era?
The distance from Clarksdale MI to Chicago, IL: 555 miles. Subtract 432=.......that's right 123; the number of the holes on a standard diatonic harp that give you: the lowest tone, the root, and the blue third.
I don't know about you but I'm retuning my harps right away.
"What's the problem with buy a harp from a customizer"? Absolutely none. I already own two, I love 'em to death and I plan to keep expanding until I own a complete set. Dadoom, if you're a serious harp player, a custom harp is absolutly worth the money. I don't really care if Hohner or Seydel or anybody else makes custom harps. If they were planning on starting a "custom shop" for harps, I'm sure they would have done it by now. There are plenty of bitchin' custom harps out there now to choose from. I can't wait till I can afford my next one. I'm curious as to why Hohner is putting out a bigger, more powerful (and more expensive) version of the Hoodoo box. From what I understand, the original Hoodoo box wasn't that successful. I heard it will cost in the neighborhood of $675. As for me, I think I'll spend my money on a HarpGear....
"The instruments on which Mozart and Verdi composed their masterpieces were in 432Hz -is the same as C=256Hz- pitched"
This would be true for Pythagorean tuning. If you work this out for equal temperament or just intonation the numbers don't come out nice. Or did I make a mistake?
Does anyone think that PI is a harmonious looking number? Music of the spheres...
Wikipedia has an article the covers "pitch inflation" and it sounds similar to the modern day "volume wars".
modern day alchemy. btw. i think 432Hz sounds better than 440Hz too. I didn't check the frequencies correlating to notes and shapes though... didn't figure out how (i don't have a tuner and couldnt get the freeware tuners to work). ---------- germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
That is amazing!! I guess I had no idea how sand or liquid would react to certain frequency's? Maybe I should have said I never really thought about it.
