lumpy wafflesquirt
16 posts
Mar 23, 2009
12:09 PM
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A thought struck me,
A standard diatonic harp has 20 reeds and plays 19 different notes.
How many different notes is it possible to play on a harp?
I guess the question is really how many notes on each hole as I think there will be a lot of duplications along the harp.
I appreciate that it could be seen as infinite as you can bends a note a tiny fraction of a tone at a time, but that would be cheating. ;^)
Lumpy
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Elwood
1 post
Mar 23, 2009
12:16 PM
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I consulted this diagram and counted 39 different notes, including overblows and overdraws. Myself, I can get maybe 28 of those guys, if you catch me on a good morning. I'm working on it...
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Preston
225 posts
Mar 23, 2009
12:54 PM
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Lumpy, I completely understand what you were trying to ask, so don't take the rest of this as a smart-ass answer:
I believe the correct answer is 12. There are only 12 notes (that I know of)that can be played on any instrument.
C Db D Eb E F F# G Ab A Bb B
A more thorough answer is to say a standard tuned harmonica can produce 3 complete octaves of notes, plus 1 note from a 4th octave (10 overdraw).
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lumpy wafflesquirt
17 posts
Mar 23, 2009
1:25 PM
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Preston, yup I missed that posibility when I tried to eliminate the clever bods by stipulating it isn't infinite and it is a 10 hole diatonic etc. :^)
but surely they are repeated in the higher register [or lower register depending where you start] ;^)
Elwood .....
39!!!! I guess I am at about 25 :^((( [perhaps it's my 'out of the box' harps]
Does that chart mean that some bends are physically impossible? if so why? If you can bend a B reed [for example] 3Hole draw on a C harp to three notes, why will it only go to 2 notes on an A harp 1hole draw.
I'm sure that there must be a law of physics that I am not understanding here and probably won't when it is explained :^(
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Preston
227 posts
Mar 23, 2009
1:41 PM
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No, that's what I'm trying to say while still being "musically theoretically" correct. You asked how many "Different" notes and were talking about bending fractions of tones. Like I said, I knew what you meant, but to say it correctly, there are only 12 notes....
So if we go back to what you originally asked without being musically theoretically correct: for the record I can overblow holes 2 and 3 as well, so there are (2) more notes. I can also overdraw hole 8. On the majority of my tweaked harps I can blow bend the 7 down a half step. I can also (on a good day) bend my overblows on 4,5,and 6 up slightly, so there is (3) more notes. Now we are up to 47 notes, and we haven't even talked about the guys who can bend their overblows up several tones!
Edit:
I'm not sure I'm bending the 7 blow down half step. Probably more like taking a little bit of the pitch off, similar to the 5 draw.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 1:42 PM
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Preston
228 posts
Mar 23, 2009
1:55 PM
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Your other question:
When you bend or overblow, it is the other reed that is sounding. So if you look at your 3 hole on a C harp, the three blow is a G, and the 3 draw unbent is a B. In the chromatic scale, there are 3 notes that exist between G and B. You get the bent notes because the blow reed is actually the one bending down in pitch, even though you are drawing. You can't get any more out of the bend because that's all that exist between the two. It is possible to slightly bend too deep, but you really aren't getting a new note, your just out of pitch and sound shitty.
As far as an overblow goes you are actually making the draw reed jump up to a higher note, so that is what makes it possible to physically bend it higher, not playing by the draw bend rules.
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 2:10 PM
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GermanHarpist
181 posts
Mar 23, 2009
3:33 PM
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Well, I would certainly also count all notes that you can play double (or triple).
With some harps (e.g. Hohner Pro Harps) I can bend the notes very close to the blow note (i.e. draw note). (Adam does that when he bends the 4 hole draw all the way down substituting the 4 hole blow.) So these notes count too.
Then there are the bent overblows. Saying that you have a perfectly set-up harp (I'm guessing here..) you can overbend the 1 hole half a step, holes 2,3 two half steps, holes 4,5,6 three half steps and holes 7,8,9,10 two half steps.
So in total you have:
20 notes being played regularly
+ 10 reached by bending to the max
+ 12 bends that are in between
+ 10 simple overblows/-draws
+ 22 overbend notes
this makes a total of 74 notes that you can play on the harp. Not counting the blue notes that are distributed in there somewhere(for the different positions).
I think this answers the question... I don't know if the answer is correct though.. ;-)
The harp f***ing rocks either way..
Go Harpfriends!
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 5:40 PM
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GermanHarpist
186 posts
Mar 23, 2009
5:00 PM
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Here's a little diagram of my previous post.
Link to rapidshare...
..same diagram updated.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 5:13 PM
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Patrick Barker
208 posts
Mar 23, 2009
6:08 PM
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Whoa you guys, counting pitches that are duplicates isn't valid in my opinion (2 and 3 hole overblows etc.). These pitches can already be achieved without special overblowing technique so counting them would be like counting the two hole draw and the 3 hole blow as different pitches.
Assuming you have full overblow and overdraw capabilities, you can produce 38 different standard western pitches (no quarter steps or duplicates included).
If you can play overblows and overdraws you can play the full chromatic scale, and there are 12 different notes per octave, and there are three octaves making 36 notes, plus the ten blow is an extra note not included in the octave below, and if you can overdraw the ten hole you also get an extra note above that, making a total of 38 notes.
The diagram Elwood posted shows 39 pitches because it includes both the 2 hole draw and 3 hole blow, which are the same pitch.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
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GermanHarpist
187 posts
Mar 23, 2009
6:23 PM
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Well, this depends on how you understand lumpys question... but of course you are right, Patrick.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Tryharp
184 posts
Mar 23, 2009
6:49 PM
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Guys,
This link also has some great info on this topic, about the notes available, and the mechanics etc, Theres a chart half way down relating to overbends
http://www.harmonicasessions.com/dec04/overbends.html
It suggests 63 Notes (including duplicates)
TRYHARP
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GermanHarpist
188 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:00 PM
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Tryharp, that was insightful. The overbends stated in my previous post were obviously guessed (and wrong - although surprisingly correct in number). What about including the notes bent to the max? This would then add up to 73 notes.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Tryharp
185 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:21 PM
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@GH, If you could do that you could include it, I guess I have never really checked how far exactly I bend, as I am using my ear to get the note I'm after, so I'm not sure if I can BEND TO THE MAX.
@ Preston, blow bending the 7 has always fascinated me. I have seen many people say it just cant be done. When I was a novice I use to think I could do it, but then I thought maybe its just getting louder or something. Ive got a chrom tuner in front of me now - so the 7 blow is Bb - 5 cents, and 7 blow bend is A + 20 cents. - so thats approaching 1/2 a semitone. ??? ( oops I mean a semitone)
Tryharp
TRYHARP
Last Edited by on Mar 23, 2009 8:00 PM
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Preston
229 posts
Mar 23, 2009
7:41 PM
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You got me, buddy. I don't have a clue what cents are in the music world. I use Bendometer and my ears. I can't fire up the harp and bendometer right now cause the family is asleep, but I will check it out tomorrow and see what I can do.
I never use it as a stand-alone note, I just scoop into the 7 blow for an affect, or sometimes us it as a little bit of vibrato. I discovered it completely by accident as I was trying to see what it sounded like if I warbled between 6 overblow and 7 blow. I figured I would keep my overblow embouchure because there wasn't an overblow at 7 so it couldn't hurt anything, and to my surprise I was bending the note down.
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Tryharp
186 posts
Mar 23, 2009
8:04 PM
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I think, 100 cents to a semi tone, so 100-5-20 = 75 cents or 3/4 of a semitone.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
18 posts
Mar 24, 2009
10:39 AM
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German Harpist [Mar 23, 2009 6:23 PM]
I am now not sure if I understand my original question. it is much more complicated than I thought [as I suspected it might be].
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GermanHarpist
193 posts
Mar 24, 2009
1:35 PM
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" How many different notes is it possible to play on a harp? "
The answer to that is 35. All chromatic notes from C to C#''' - i.e. three full octaves plus the overdraw.
" I guess the question is really how many notes on each hole as I think there will be a lot of duplications along the harp. " The answer to that is either 63 (as in Tryharps link) or 73.
The reason I add ten notes is because with some harps you can bend the draw note all the way to the blow note. Giving you one extra note (duplicate) for every hole.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Mar 24, 2009 1:45 PM
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GermanHarpist
194 posts
Mar 24, 2009
1:42 PM
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And when you add the blue notes there should be around 100 notes (with duplicates) that you can play. Once you're a harp-über-pro, of course. lol.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
Last Edited by on Mar 24, 2009 1:48 PM
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lumpy wafflesquirt
40 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:46 PM
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Preston
going back to what you said earlier
"When you bend or overblow, it is the other reed that is sounding. So if you look at your 3 hole on a C harp, the three blow is a G, and the 3 draw unbent is a B. In the chromatic scale, there are 3 notes that exist between G and B. You get the bent notes because the blow reed is actually the one bending down in pitch, even though you are drawing. You can't get any more out of the bend because that's all that exist between the two. It is possible to slightly bend too deep, but you really aren't getting a new note, your just out of pitch and sound shitty."
I see what you mean, but a bizarre thought came to me. If I changed the blow reedplate so the 3 hole blow was an F with the draw still a B would you then be able to bend the Draw to a further 2 notes?
This is purely theoretical, I don't intend to try it.
Would this open a hole new era of harp playing with reed plates of different keys on a harp/
Go on, someone must have tried it. :^)
or would it just sound like Les Dawson on piano.
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 12:47 PM
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Preston
289 posts
Apr 20, 2009
12:52 PM
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Based on how a harp operates right now I would say YES. But I don't have a clue if it would work or not. Go try it and tell us!
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lumpy wafflesquirt
41 posts
Apr 20, 2009
1:05 PM
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someone must have already done it, there's always someone who has tried everything.
or what about identical reedplates would that make bending impossible?
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Andrew
218 posts
Apr 20, 2009
1:41 PM
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"If I changed the blow reedplate so the 3 hole blow was an F with the draw still a B would you then be able to bend the Draw to a further 2 notes?"
Yes - check out a 14-holer: the 14 blow is a whole 7 semitones higher than the the 14 draw and can be bent down 6 1/2 semitones.
Last Edited by on Apr 20, 2009 1:42 PM
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GermanHarpist
286 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:19 PM
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Ok, what do you guys think about that: Lets have a standard-looking 10 hole harp, but get a bigger range of notes.
Lets say you have the same as the three hole on a standard diatonic on every hole of the harp. Plus the overblows....
That gives you a range of... calculating... 5 octaves minus half a note... (i.e. a chromatic scale with 60 notes)
I call this the Super Extended Tuning... lol.
Is there a way you could order a harp like that? Sounds freaking awesome... being able to play 5 octaves on such a small instrument!
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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GermanHarpist
289 posts
Apr 20, 2009
6:44 PM
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Well you have the blow note, three draw bend notes, the unbend draw note and the overblow. That makes 6 notes per hole. I.e. one octave every two holes or five octaves on ten holes... AWESOME!!!! :o
Seriously, does anybody know if you can buy specially tuned harps like that?
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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nacoran
103 posts
Jul 06, 2009
11:46 AM
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I think Seydel will tune your harp however you want.
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KingoBad
50 posts
Jul 06, 2009
12:57 PM
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Don't forget the notes you might hit with torsional vibrations missing an overblow.
Maybe someone needs to learn how to play those things. I'm sure they are quite off the upper end of the charts.
They'd be the next Levy Boy Jr.
Last Edited by on Jul 06, 2009 12:58 PM
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