djm3801
60 posts
Mar 27, 2009
6:25 PM
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Been bending notes for a long while. I tilt the harp a bit anyway, and arch my tongue and pull it back a bit from my lower teeth. I also have read about the technique where you drop the back of your tongue and sort of drop your jaw a bit to increase the size of the mouth cavity.
Which is most commonly used? When arching my tongue, I can hit a bend quick and fairly accurately but the sound seems flat. Trying to get clearer bent notes even if it requires a little re-learning.
Thanks for any input.
Dan
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Aussiesucker
217 posts
Mar 27, 2009
6:40 PM
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One of my frustrations is in getting the range of bent notes from hole 3. I love country music and to get the major pentatonic scale requires accurately hitting the 2nd bend on hole 3 or an A note on a C harp. Have no probs with the blues scale.
I have used a Bendometer.
I have noted that if you concentrate on producing bends from deep down ca around the adams apple helps. I also wear a top denture which I think, I know, inhibits my being able to bend notes. The alternative is to play without a denture but I don't want to appear like a circus clown.
Any other players out there who wear a denture and can comment as to how they cope?
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2009 6:41 PM
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djm3801
61 posts
Mar 27, 2009
6:44 PM
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YOu know - that is interesting and something I never thought about - do denture wearers have unique issues playing harp.... I do not wear them myself, but it never occurred to me if there was an issue. Great question!
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GermanHarpist
229 posts
Mar 27, 2009
8:04 PM
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@djm3801, I don't think that tilting the harp away while bending is good. Changing the position of the harp means changing your embouchure. Generally I think it's best to learn the different techniques with minimal or no change in embouchure (just makes it easier, more relax, to play).
Otherwise, I believe you are on the right track.
I do my bends with my tongue. I lower my jaw a little for hole 2 but especially hole 1. I'd do it anyway (just for tone) but it also helps with bending notes (especially 1 hole).
I tend to pull my tongue down for the higher holes. The lower the hole (especially hole 1) the more I pull my tongue back into my mouth instead of down.
@Aussiesucker: Why do you mean the denture is inhibiting your playing? Could you elaborate a little on that. just outa curiosity.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Aussiesucker
218 posts
Mar 27, 2009
9:21 PM
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German Harpist> To elaborate I believe it reduces the volume of space available within the mouth. This is probably no argument, more of an excuse, as some people have very large mouths and others very small. I do however think it might make some difference.
Without wearing my denture I find it a little easier to play and less effort to hit bent notes, but not wearing a denture is not an option for me.
I really need someone to confirm ie preferably by saying -no, ie it makes no difference just keep working until a breakthrough.
Most holes I have no real trouble except 3 ie bending a C harp beyond Bb chokes before it gets to A let alone Ab. Have tried C harps from a wide range of manufacturers ie Marine Bands, Sp20s, Lee Oskar, Blues Harp & Suzukis ie it makes no difference.
Does having a huge set of chops help? Mine would be average but lessened by having a denture. Is mouth size a factor?
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Andrew
193 posts
Mar 28, 2009
2:43 AM
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Very difficult to describe, so that you may get conflicting advice from different people.
First off, it depends on the pitch of the note.
I've just been playing with my low F and my high F MBs. But also the way I bend the 1 hole on any harp will usually be different from the way I bend the 6-hole on that harp.
The jaw-dropping advice can be difficult for a beginner because it will have a serious effect on your embouchure, and if you haven't got a confident embouchure yet, that's going to make it worse.
And for me the jaw-dropping comes most into play on say the 2-draw on my low F, together with maximum tongue withdrawal and throat opening - the jaw-dropping just assists the tongue and throat movements. On my high F, there's no jaw-dropping, nor throat-opening - I do it all just with tongue shape. All this is because your oral cavity is part of the instrument - when the reeds vibrate, some of the sound goes forwards and some goes back; it resonates in your mouth and throat and comes out again (that's a simplified explanation of the physics) - the lower the note, the bigger the resonating cavity you need. It's the same on the flute or the oboe - it's as though you are pronouncing vowels as you play - i, e, a, o, u depending on the pitch of the note.
On the 2-draw on my Bb harp I don't use any jaw dropping - if I articulate the same way as I do on my low F I don't get any bend at all (well, first it tries to bend too far, then quickly snaps back up to the base note)! Actually, even on the 2-draw I'd say the throat doesn't come into it much for me - I use the throat much more on the 1-draw (on the Bb harp). For me opening my throat came naturally (no, I'm not gay) - I remember 30 years ago when I was a teenager someone gave me a jaw-harp (jew's harp), and making the sounds just came naturally to me (but I had been playing the oboe for 5 years by then). Maybe we should all buy jaw-harps? (but the last time I saw some, they were more expensive than harmonicas!). But if you have difficulty opening your throat and think that jaw-dropping will assist that, then I doubt if that will work. I'd say stick maybe to a Bb or C harp and learn just the tongue and throat stuff first, then go to a lower harp and find out how you'll need jaw-dropping too.
So the 3 hole on the low D harp (I can only bend the 2-hole down two semitones temporarily and with a little pain in my throat), the 2 hole on the low F and the 1 hole on the Bb are all roughly the same note - middle C or B on the piano, and coincidentally, the Bb is the lowest note on the oboe and middle C is the lowest note on the flute, so to get middle C or lower to resonate in your mouth you really need the full works. Higher than that and you can start tightening up a little in order to get the note you want.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 3:00 AM
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gene
153 posts
Mar 28, 2009
2:57 AM
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I recently had a breakthrough in improving my bends significantly...Something I heard from David Barrett:
Play a 4 draw, and slowly start articulating the word "you" until you find that sweet spot. Now try it on the 3, 2 and 1. The lower the note, the more you have to drop your jaw.
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Andrew
195 posts
Mar 28, 2009
4:27 AM
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Aussie, something you don't appear to have said is how much success you have without your denture - playing publicly without it is one thing, but that doesn't mean you can't practice without it in private, and practice without it may improve your ability with it. What happens if you try a stronger denture adhesive? (really letting go on a big bend on a low note needs confidence, and I can imagine dentures reduce your confidence. As you say, the mouth cavity is smaller, so you may have to go for it even more big-time than someone without a denture). Alternatively, you could talk to your dentist to see if there is a choice of shapes available. Or you could win the lottery and get implants for the incisors, then go without the dentures in public (but learn to smile narrow)!
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 4:28 AM
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djm3801
62 posts
Mar 28, 2009
4:36 AM
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To clarify, I tend to play with the harp tiled a tad as it gives me a better embrochure. I do not tilt it any more ore less on a bend, but a lot of really good info here. I got good bends purely by pulling my tongue back from my lower teeth andd arching it a bit, but was not satisfied with the "cleanness" of the sound. It was the first method I learned, it worked, and I truely never bothered to look elsewhere. I was playing for 2 days, could not play a clean 2 draw consistently yet, but was able to bend all teh draw notes all the way,so I never looked back. I've been practicing "Juke" an "Help Me" and getting good results, but I want cleaner consistent bends.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2009 4:42 AM
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Aussiesucker
220 posts
Mar 28, 2009
4:49 PM
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Andrew: Thanks for your suggestions. There is for me noticeable improvement if I don't wear them. I can probable get a full note bend on 3 ie to an A on a C harp. Also I notice an improvement in my tone. I only use denture adhesives when I go surfing & sailboarding but am hesitant to use the stuff when playing harps as its a sticky muck that I fear would be a task to clean off reeds. Tastes nice though. Also denture adhesive puts a cushion between the roof of the mouth and the denture which I feel might further decrease the mouth volume.
Am probably barking up the wrong tree and I need to keep working until a breakthrough.
Your suggestion about talking to a dentist is not an option. I would hate to foot the bill to rearrange/experiment as only last week my wife had a total of 2 fillings replaced and check up and clean which had her in the chair for less than 30 mins and ouch $800! When I win the lottery?
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djm3801
64 posts
Mar 28, 2009
5:28 PM
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Gee. $800! I am in the wrong business. Expensive here, but not that bad. Is the Aussie dollar about the same as ours?
DAn
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Aussiesucker
223 posts
Mar 28, 2009
6:17 PM
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djm3801: Our $A buys only 65Us cents wheras 12 months ago it was 1:1. But as you print more money our $ will come back up.
I read an interesting thread re bending technique on another forum linked to a course I am doing & I have tried it with some improvement. Basically you need to get the bend from deep down in the glottis. Don't neglect the other tongue movements and the dropping of the jaw however they seem less important. To work out accurately how far down you need to get a glass of iced water and take some sips but try to take it deep into the throat without swallowing ie around the adams apple. At that point is the spot where you need to focus getting your bends.
So much is written on bending technique it's obvious what works for some doesn't work for others ie that's why I pose the question are some people better equipped ie bigger chops?
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oldwailer
621 posts
Mar 28, 2009
6:47 PM
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Hey Aussie,
I wear full dentures and glue them in with stuff that doesn't have a flavor--and I can get bends. I asked Buddha if that would be a factor on bending or overblow, which I can't get yet--he said no--that wouldn't be the problem.
The glue does get into the mouthpiece of the harp--I just tap them out good and run a toothbrush over them from time to time to knock it out--doesn't seem to be a problem to me, but then I'm not OCD about cleaning my harps either ;-) ...
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Aussiesucker
224 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:20 PM
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Oldwailer: Thanks. Good to get confirmation that it's me. I just have to work harder.
I am fearful of using the adhesive as its difficult enough to clean out of my mouth and off the denture and as I am OCD re having clean harps it scares me.
Looks like you had a great time with Buddha & Isaac. Great videos.
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djm3801
68 posts
Mar 28, 2009
7:38 PM
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Harmonica academy! That is where I saw it. I praciting this, i find I have been unconscioulsy doing it from time to time, but do find it give clearer bends. Now I concntrate on doing it. Do not know about trying the iced water, but keeping thwe tip of my tongue against the back of my lower teeth, dropping my jaw and getting the back of my tongue down does the trick.
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roadharp
9 posts
Jan 05, 2010
7:49 AM
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gene thats the way i learned it from jerry portnoys master blues class e ew o aw e natural ew like little girls say ew ew ew daddy is half step articulation. o is the full step. aw is the 1 and a half step .then try ke kew ko ka .this is the 3 hole. it help me hope it held you. get he book its awesome.
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congaron
385 posts
Jan 05, 2010
8:10 AM
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I use my tongue on my lower teeth to shape the high blow bends. I just drop it out of the way for the draw bends and use my jaw.
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mankycodpiece
73 posts
Jan 05, 2010
9:02 AM
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i said in an earlier thread that i had to unlearn bad habits.
i couldn't get all the bends,but could get most of them in all the keys.
as i've said before,i've played chrome on and off for 50 years,and that was my problem.
during my problem with bending,i'd go back to the chrome and bend the $hit out of it.
so what was the problem?
embouchure.that was it.its a different embouchure with the chrome for me.i tongue block on chrome and pucker with the little feller.
getting the chops right sorted it out for me.
the only observation i can make is,that i seem to just
drag my tongue along my top teeth and suck on a straw.
i can't say i have a vowel sound or anything like that.
i've noticed the jaw does drop when required,but it isn't something i do concously.
i used to kick off the bend with a tut but the K works better when i want to pick off the 3 draw bends clean to go to the 3 draw.
it may all depend on the size of the mouth.my mrs would be terrific.
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barbequebob
296 posts
Jan 05, 2010
12:36 PM
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The jaw drop needed is very slight and subtle to get the bends correct, regardless if it is played with a tongue block or pucker and avoid trying to force it to happen with more breath force, which is what too many players tend to do when they're trying to get them, and then this bad playing habit/technique gets ingrained, which you don't want to happen.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jan 05, 2010 12:36 PM
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