|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
I want a teacher, but then again I don't...
I want a teacher, but then again I don't...
Page:
1
ZackPomerleau
15 posts
Mar 30, 2009
12:56 PM
|
So thanks to Jason Ricci I got the chance to learn from this great harmonica player named Jason Curran. This guy has a BA in Jazz Music (composition I believe, not exactly sure of the degree), he is an extensive overblower, and this guy can just play. He reminds me of Howard Levy, he's not as good, but he is REALLY similar. He's extremely musically smart and really stresses music theory.
Well, problem is. I want to learn from him to get better technique, but problem is I also have this little voice saying don't, do it by yourself. What's that all about?
So, what do you guys think? I'm saying go, the inner voice says no. I just assume this would be great help to me and for my playing and technique.
|
tookatooka
173 posts
Mar 30, 2009
1:21 PM
|
Difficult one there Zack, you'll get a lot of responses for and against on here.
I'm for self teaching personally. It may take longer but you'll make your own discoveries which are out of the ordinary.
Look at Picasso, the 20th centuries most succesful artist, he was classically trained in the worlds best art academies but he wanted more than they could offer and he rebelled and invented his own art genres. Although his art could look childish, the invention and newness of his art set him apart from anyone else and he changed the art scene forever. He said his art training stiffled his own creativity.
As an artist myself I have come across many masters who have said this or that particular technique is for advanced painters only. But I've been doing it for years without knowing other people found it hard. When I found out it was supposed to be difficult, I found I started to get problems with it. Ignorance was bliss.
You are young enough to experiment yourself. If you found you were not making the progress you expected then maybe consider getting advice on those things you are not sure of when you need to.
The most important thing is it has still got to be fun. Once the fun element goes out of it, it could just be a chore which you wouldnt enjoy or excel at.
There will be lots of input from the guys here. I hope you make the best decision. One that you are happy with.
----------
When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2009 1:23 PM
|
ZackPomerleau
16 posts
Mar 30, 2009
1:25 PM
|
Thanks for the long response. One way I thought about it was if I did it once or twice a month, I'd learn but not be taking much more than knowledge, allowing me to shape it to my liking. I dunno!!!
|
tookatooka
174 posts
Mar 30, 2009
1:33 PM
|
Sounds good to me.
----------
When I'm not blowing, I'm drawing.
|
Tuckster
149 posts
Mar 30, 2009
1:48 PM
|
I say go for it! Music theory certainly won't hurt you.Just the fact that you're worried about "losing your mojo",should keep that from happening-don't you think?
|
Preston
247 posts
Mar 30, 2009
1:51 PM
|
My first teacher wanted me to quit Lip Pursing. He said I paid the money to him because he was the teacher, and I would tongue block because he said so.
|
oldwailer
630 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:06 PM
|
Zack, feel the force! If one lesson doesn't help you--get another teacher, but do get a teacher!
|
Oisin
158 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:20 PM
|
Go with a teacher Zack! Tooka...if you take your example of Picasso, you said he was classically trained and then did his own thing. I'm sure that he used some of the things he learned (mixing colours, brushwork etc) in his paintings.
Think of it like say a bricklayer. You serve an aprenticeship and learn how to do it...then you can go and build whatever you like.
For years I tried to tech myself and thought I was hot shit until I took some lessons. I learnt more in my first lesson than I did in 5 years trying to teach myself.
If like Preston you find a teacher who you may not agree with, find another one you get on with. I was lucky that I got on really well with the guy who taught me. You can't beat realtime feedback from someone who knows what they are talking about.
I think the best thing of all was having something to focus on when practising at home, not just picking up the harp and just playing the first thing that came to mind. Took me 6 months to get a good 2 draw bend but I would still be trying if I didn't have those lessons.
I think Oldwailer is a great example too. Read what he has to say about his lessons with Buddha.
Oisin
|
MrVerylongusername
219 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:20 PM
|
I think you are the only one who can really answer your question. everyone learns in different ways - whatever the subject. I've never had a harp teacher so I don't know how they operate, but I think a good one should really be a coach - not a teacher. Coaching is about setting and guiding you towards your goals. A good coach can offer knowledge and experience, but if it isn't impeding your goal will let you learn at your own pace and style - giving you freedom to develop in a more individual way. From what I saw on YouTube, Buddha's teaching method would be better described as coaching (and very good, effective coaching at that).
|
scstrickland
36 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:35 PM
|
Zack, I'm another one for teaching yourself. Others will disagree. I am in no way a Picasso fan. Instead I have always been interested in American Primitive art and the arts of Harlem Renaissance. Like the Blue, for the most part, these artists were self taught and were not classically trained. It shows in their work and is what makes their art stand out. To me the art has an innocence and honesty that speaks volumes. Others will look at such art and only see the "mistakes". Here is a contemporary example. This link shows quilts made by the WORLD FAMOUS Gee's Bend Quilters. They are a group of African American quilters in Alabama. They break all the rules because they never learned "The Rules" had they been taught to do it "The Right Way" I doubt they would be as good.
http://www.auburn.edu/academic/other/geesbend/explore/catalog/slideshow/index.htm
|
eharp
251 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:39 PM
|
teacher/student relationship doesnt have to be for life. tell him what you want out of it. (you are the paying customer!) if you feel it isnt working and a discussion doesnt help; move on.
|
oda
50 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:53 PM
|
Have you heard Christina aguielara's song "genie in a bottle" (my heart is sayin no but my body is sayin let's go ... ahh haaa laaa)
I definitely think you should get a teacher. This "Do it on your own" mentality is not for everything. Simply put, a good teacher will help you advance faster and point out things you don't notice about yourself.
try it at least once and let us know how you felt about it!
|
snakes
140 posts
Mar 30, 2009
2:58 PM
|
With all due respect to those that say not to find a teacher let me offer my opinion as to why I would advise getting a GOOD teacher. Personally I take lessons from Grant Dermody so I am biased. I will say one of his teachings is to find your OWN voice on the harmonica while he helps you learn critical technics such as the key to good tone, tongue blocking, etc. A couple of key things I've benefited from by working with a teacher:
1. Maintaining a pace to your development is enhanced by having scheduled lessons where you know you need to practice by a certain time to get ready for the lesson.
2. Let's just call it teacher induced epiphany. A case in point was the rudimentary task of bending for me. I had been self teaching myself for a few months and trying to learn how to bend for two months at least without one single bent tone. On the first lesson with Grant he had me try a drill to enable bending and I got my first draw bend before I left that lesson.
3. Mentorship - I believe everyone benfits from a good mentor. They can teach you what they know as well as give you feedback from the perspective of a professional's eye. This in turn gives us more to pass on as we become mentors.
4. Community - a good teacher will have other students that you will most likely get to know through student concerts, etc. These people will grow your base of friends with similar interests such as blues music as well as be another source of inspiration and learning.
Thats my thoughts briefly put. I'm sure there are things I am forgetting.
|
fiveoh
9 posts
Mar 30, 2009
4:55 PM
|
I would love to get some lessons as posted on another thread but $90 dollars a pop...shewwwwww my pockets arent that deep on a cop salary...Im sure the teachers r worth it but dag....
|
DanP
64 posts
Mar 30, 2009
5:31 PM
|
i believe that even if the student is at a intermediate level already, a good teacher should have the student go through the basics to make sure his fundamentals are solid.
|
oldwailer
631 posts
Mar 30, 2009
6:06 PM
|
@fiveoh, I understand what you are saying--but you don't really have to take a lesson every week or even every month. $90 is about the cost of a good harp--maybe a few bucks more. One lesson, from the right instructor, and you'll have enough stuff to focus on for weeks.
To me, that's worth it--I just wish I had done it sooner and I would have saved a lot of woodshed time practicing crappy techniques--and now I have to go through the time to unlearn some wrong stuff I was doing.
I don't really mean to argue here--I just mean that it is worth it to me--the main thing is to just keep on harpin and enjoying it. . .
|
superchucker77
149 posts
Mar 30, 2009
7:01 PM
|
Go for it dude:)
If you dont like it, leave.
----------
Brandon Bailey
Superchucker77's Youtube
|
The Happy Harper
28 posts
Mar 30, 2009
7:17 PM
|
Zack,
I am going to present both sides, so I will be of no help at all...
Neither is the magic solution and neither is forever, so try one approach and see how it goes, try the other and see how it goes. then you will know
Only you know the answer to this one and remember you already have lots of teachers, you are picking up new stuff from different sources all the time. A lesson is just a focused way of doing it.
I suggest you get a lesson and see how it feels. Lessons for a few times won't ruin you forever. Then you can decide from a place of expereince.
Gaining skills or learning ways to do things from someone else doesn't mean you HAVE to use them, take what fits for you and discard what doesn't. After doing this with different folks you will have an original mix of what works for you anyway.
Find someone that wants to make you a better you and not another one of them and you should be on the right path.
or
Take a few lessons, decide they suck for you and set off to figure it out on your own. Playing is about exploration and self expression, always forget what you know, or have been taught and discover new things all the time.
A guy showed me some stuff once, turned out to be no help at all, just frustrating, but now that I have been an art teacher for years I just realize that he couldn't teach worth a fart.
I would humbly suggest you check with yourself to see if the 'do it on your own' impulse comes from a place of who you really are or of pride. just a thought.
of course learning from others should be about expanding your awareness not limiting it, would you be able to teach yourself how to do overblows if you never heard one? maybe, maybe not.
the real question is which path is more fulfilling to you as you walk it cause we never get to that destination, it always moves farther down the road. So make peace with your approach to the instrument, weather you figure it out on your own or add lessons to your mix cause your daily expereince of joy is all we have anyway.
Boy that was a real ramble on and on. It's just that I have been thinking about the same thing myself.
I live in Toronto so I think I'll just give Carlos Del Junco a call and see what he charges...could be the biggest mistake I make..but I'm sure I'll recover if it is.
Thanks for starting this thread and to all the thoughtful folks that posted.
Jason
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2009 7:28 PM
|
Buddha
200 posts
Mar 30, 2009
7:52 PM
|
Zach, some people are natural musicians and others are not. You have to be honest with yourself when you ask are you a natural musician. The harmonica is the hardest of all instruments to play because there are three octave and each note, interval and scales is different for each octave. If you want to be a good player, understand that you are committing yourself to THREE TIMES the work any other instrument would take to master.
There is no shame in taking lesson and there is no extra glory in learning on your own, in the end all people care about is how you made them feel with your music and that my friend, has nothing to do with lessons or not.
If you're going to get with a teach get a good one. There are a few world-class players that give lessons in person and on-line. There really is no reason to go to a local player who may charge less and be a inferior player when you can get with people like Jason Ricci, Dennis Gruenling and others for a few dollars more. In fact, since Jason sucks at what Dennis does, and Dennis sucks at what Jason does and I suck at what they both do, take lessons from everybody. You have nothing to loose.
A good teacher is priceless. I know you can get lessons from france for $25 a pop but you'd be spending well over $100 before you learned what you wanted, so go to a true expert like Gruenling or jason who can show you want you want within the first lesson. Also, look for teachers that are gigging musicians, real world experience is priceless.
|
kudzurunner
334 posts
Mar 30, 2009
8:16 PM
|
Great question, Zack. In some sense it's THE question.
I second what Buddha says.
And I'll expand very slightly on his final point: real world experience is priceless, and your OWN real world experience--on bandstands, on the streets, in crisis situations, at jam sessions (great ones and down-in-flames ones), on the road, in radio stations--is irreplaceable.
The musician is the document. To paraphrase a great, foul-mouthed trumpet god: everything you've lived comes out of your horn. So it's important to live music as well as study it. And studying it, crucial as it may prove to be, can't fully substitute for the process of actually making it with flawed, real human beings. It's about feeling the music--inside you and as it comes out of you--and creating a groove with other people. That's particularly true with blues.
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2009 8:18 PM
|
DutchBones
119 posts
Mar 30, 2009
9:54 PM
|
Zack, you've read posts here and at other forums from people who have been noodling around for years until they finally decided to get a teacher.
And all of them, yes ALL OF THEM, said they wished they had decided years ago to get a teacher, cause they wasted lots of time doing the wrong stuff and creating bad habits.. ask yourself... do you want to be one of those people? can we expect a post from you, 3 years from now, "I wished I'd called Jason or Dennis or Chris or whoever, 3 years ago"
I left my country, traveling the world, when I was a little over 20. The deciding factor to make the move was a conversation that I had with my 68 old neighbor.
He told me he always had wanted to travel the world, but there was always some reason for not going, girlfriend, school, job, you name it.. so he never went anywhere.....
That evening when I got home, I imagined myself being 68 , talking with a young guy who wanted to travel the world.... and I would be the one giving all those reasons for never going anywhere..... and then I realized that I never wanted to be that person, who didn't get up and go after his dream.... so I left ... and I never had any regrets, not even during the worst of times....
The moral of the story is, you don't want to be that person who waisted a few years like those other guys and then write about it on the internet. Even though you are still very young, 15 if I'm not mistaken, 3 years waist is 3 years waist, go for it while you can..... who knows, at the point in your life that you decide to go to a certain teacher, it might not even be possible anymore to get lessons from that person....
Go for it Zack!! and may the force be with you!
----------
DutchBones Tube
|
Buddha
201 posts
Mar 30, 2009
10:11 PM
|
This is how I learned Zack, By the time I was 10 I was pretty damn good. Better than any of those "famous" 10yr olds who played and then fizzled but I have always had a natural talent for music and being creative in general.
When I was 16 I got a little more serious about harp and took 2 lessons from Clint Hoover. I paid for four but never finished with him. About that time I met Dick Gardner who introduced me to the Twin City Harmonica club. There, I mostly played Chromatic but there was a man there name Don Allen who really showed me how to play some stuff. The club more or less forced me to go to SPAH in 1991 and I've gone most years every since.
By the end of the week of my first SPAH, I had absorbed so much harmonica music that my style changed and I was a better harmonica player. By the time I went to SPAH 1992 people were telling me that I had a unique sound and I have been developing that ever since.
BUT, I took piano lessons, took music courses in college and took guitar lessons too. THOSE lessons are what really catapulted me into the category I like to call total badassedness or Badiosity or uncrushable... LOL anyway, the point is, learning from other harmonica players is only going to get you so far but most of them are shitty musicians overall. If you want to learn on your own then take piano lessons, and transfer that knowledge to the harmonica.
Even today when there are hard tunes or passages I am working on, I work it out on the piano first and then teach myself how to do it on the harmonica. It's so easy on the piano because it stays in one position and you can then use your ear to guide you though the million of positions that sound like crap to find the one that doesn't - which btw is almost always 12th, 11th or 3rd.
|
b1ueskyz
22 posts
Mar 30, 2009
10:26 PM
|
Zack - Lot's of advice. That's one of the great things about this forum.
I'm a beginner at harp for the third time so take this with a grain of salt, but life has taught me that, in general, there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of every resource you have access to when trying to learn something.
Take it all in stride and remember that nobody is right all the time. You have to pick and choose among the help you get and craft your own personal amalgam of all the parts.
|
Aussiesucker
228 posts
Mar 31, 2009
12:20 AM
|
I wished I had had a teacher. There are none that are located within 1000ks of where I live. I take note of what Oldwailer said about being face to face ie nothing better than one on one with a master. Have to look into using SKYPE but my brain don't absorb much in the middle of the night which is when I would need to be online with a teacher who is on the other side of the planet.
I think a good teacher would take me to another level very quickly and without changing what & how I want to play other than rid me of bad habits.
You know if none of us had ever gone to school we would probably all still be able to talk ok. But we wouldn't understand the written word or be even able to use the internet ie it would be meaningless. I think it's the same with music.
So Zack for what it's worth from an old time long time super advanced beginner take lessons and you will still become the player you want to be.
|
DaDoom
62 posts
Mar 31, 2009
12:37 AM
|
This is really a very interesting thread indeed. I'm not a musician but I can tell you my story about your dilemma:
I went to school with a very good sax player. The guy is a thoroughbred (Jazz) musician as is his whole family. His father was a great trumpet player, his mother a singer and his brother plays so many instruments that I lost count. One day I asked him to teach me how to play sax. I was ready to buy the instrument and get started. And here's what he told me: "It can not be taught. The only thing that counts are the things you learn by yourself. Everything else is worthless".
I think this is a bit of an extreme position. I'd say that a good teacher can point you in the right direction. But in the end it's still up to you to discover music and the instrument. If you don't have the interest, the passion and the will to learn the instrument, you'll never learn it. If you have them you'll learn - with or without teacher.
|
the frozen canuck
24 posts
Mar 31, 2009
3:55 AM
|
hey Zack ,i`m in the same boat ,i`v been playing for about 10mths,practice w/small band,& a couple of cats on acustics ,but im stuck in a so called rut,have trouble w/ toung blocking and or lip pursing.Here in Canada it`s hard to find a good teacher .Mr Gussow has been a major mentor ,But i feel i need some 1on 1 to sharpen up my playing ,well that my input thanks frm Canada
|
ZackPomerleau
17 posts
Mar 31, 2009
8:23 AM
|
Thanks guys, I really have decided to throw away my total "do-it-yourself" attitude and go for it.
Chris, you ask me if I believe I am natural musician. Well, I play drums, guitar, piano, and harmonica. Within two years on all of them I became better than most I had ever heard. I do think I play a decent or good double shuffle style drum beat. I do think I am a natural musician. I've never really met anyone who really GOT ALL of the instruments they play in such a short period of time, if you get what I am saying. I am no Howard Levy, and lots of those kids are better than me, but put it this way, I KNOW I have the potential to reach a point of what I call complete satisfaction, and that complete satisfaction is a Levy level. Not to PLAY like Levy, but to be of similar stature, whatever that skill level may be. I do agree with you on lessons, and I DO NOT plan to take lessons from any Blues players or others who use overblows rarely. I can play blues and I know that, I want to use overblows in blues, and do a Ricci like idea, but I WANT to know Jazz, I probably need that as I feel unable, and sort of exasperated by the fact I cannot play that good. Of course, it takes time. And this guy, and Jason would probably tell you as he somewhat/somehow knows him, is great. He plays some serious Jazz I have heard. So yes, I will give it a try, and he isn't a lot of money, but $40 an hour is definitely more than the average guitar lesson.
I guess my concern was whether or not I would lose my 'love' for it. And I do not mean I would lose interest, but the fact I would not be able to convey some type of feeling (hopefully I do now, because I do love to play) would be nearly devastating to me. Or, I would lose my sound. I don't really have a sound, but I know I am SOMEWHAT recognizable, I have a way of 'selecting' my notes. But I have a lot to learn, A LOT. I guess I should take what I can get, and pay up and get everyone's opinion and take it in as skills and techniques and not let it register in my mind as a style. That's really the way I do things, I pick and choose why I like from all musicians (guitar, harmonica, whatever I hear I try to use it) and then add what I think SHOULD be there. Having knowledge of ALL techniques, all vibratos, no matter how stupid I may find them lets say, is so very important. Because, though that technique might seem pointless or 'dumb', it has a usage.
Well, I rambled on and on :) I should try doing that to a psychologist or something someday to see what is wrong with me!!! Thanks guys again, this is really a great forum with LOTS of answers. And thanks Adam for your insights on this subject.
|
Buddha
202 posts
Mar 31, 2009
8:53 AM
|
Zach,
if jazz is your goal then you need to study another instrument first or at least at the same time. You need an instrument that will tell you something, the harmonica tells you nothing. You can't see what you're doing, you can't feel what you're doing and most harmonica players don't know what they are doing.
get yourself some jazz piano lessons. Buy Mark Levine's The Jazz Theory Book. Then find away to take lessons from either Howard Levy, Otavio Castro, Sandy Weltman, Mike Turk, William Galison or me. I honestly wouldn't bother with anybody else on the planet for what you want to do.
As great as a player Jason is, he's a very good friend of mine but I wouldn't recommend him to teach you jazz. He'd agree with me on that. I do recommend that you take lesson from Jason at some point because he the consumate badass harp player and you could learn a lot from him.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2009 8:55 AM
|
snakes
146 posts
Mar 31, 2009
8:54 AM
|
Make sure the teacher you choose is interested in what YOUR musical interests are on the harmonica. He or she should then be a conduit for you to find yourself beyond what they teach you over time in regards to that musical interest.
|
ZackPomerleau
18 posts
Mar 31, 2009
9:09 AM
|
Chris, I got Mark's book on Jazz Piano so that's a start. What do you think of studying both at a similar pace? That was an idea I had. I think one thing that should be noted about me is that I won't do something unless I 'understand' which just might be the demise of me as I HAVE to get it really good. And, Jason recommended somebody. Jason Curran is his name, I do believe he can really help me as he is just that good. I'd love to take lessons with many of those people but they are very far away. And, tell you the truth, I'd pay a lot of money for a few lessons with Levy if I could be one on one. Maybe one of these days I'll go live with you like OldWailer did :-D
Snakes, I agree, and I think we have an understanding. And, yes, I am in school, in study hall, homeworkless, I promise :-D
|
Buddha
203 posts
Mar 31, 2009
9:24 AM
|
Howard will require that you play piano before you take lessons from him.
No problem with learning two things at once, except lack of focused attention.
Just having theory and such together my not always be the best thing. You have to have a "sound". Listen to a player like Jason Rosenblatt. Great musican, very good harmonica player but his tone is terrible and intonation is worse. I find most of his music unlistenable due to his sound. I've never heard of the guy Jason mentioned but if you study with him make sure he has his sound together.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2009 10:07 AM
|
ZackPomerleau
19 posts
Mar 31, 2009
9:52 AM
|
Yeah, Levy's a piano great in my opinion. I will really try to study study study my Jazz theory and get some piano lessons after SPAH (I need all the money I can to get there). So I'll be busy.
Buddha, sound, duh!!! I've learned sound in many aspects is so important. Intonation is hard though, I assume no one truly MASTERS it but I assume they get pretty darn close!!!
|
Jim Rumbaugh
21 posts
Mar 31, 2009
9:53 AM
|
A hodge-podge of ideas on the subject.
Don't try to re-invent the wheel, get a teacher.
Some people catch on quicker, some people get more help or found more help,
There is no glory in spending a year learning via trial and error what could of been taught in a few lessons.
If there is is someone you want to sound like that teaches, take his lessons.
If you want your own sound, take lots of lessons from various people.
Some people need a teacher to show them every note. Some can find the notes by themselves.
|
ZackPomerleau
20 posts
Mar 31, 2009
10:00 AM
|
Thanks Jim. I think what I need is not, how to find the note, but just...Well, I don't know really, I just need to learn some theory but mainly the playing of the harmonica which I know he and a few can do...hmmm...
|
Post a Message
|
