rabbit
13 posts
Mar 31, 2009
10:10 PM
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Gwine to buy a new harp or two & have been
snooping for info. If you look long enough
you'll find someone who describes nearly any
harp made as "leaky."
My guess is that some harps are quicker
to respond or louder for a given volume
of wind. The key of the harp probably
counts too. "Leaky" really doesn't seem
entirely accurate.
Enlighten me on "leaky" please, if you can.
By the way, I'm thinking diatonics here. Thanks.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2009 11:17 PM
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Aussiesucker
229 posts
Mar 31, 2009
11:27 PM
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Cheap harps are often leaky ie when you blow and suck they are not as responsive as good harps. I had a Big River that out of the box it was so leaky it was like blowing through a picket fence. Don't buy cheap.
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snakes
154 posts
Apr 01, 2009
4:11 PM
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Generally speaking you can tell a harp is leaky by how much air it takes to get a sound out of it. With my Suzukis I actually can get a sound if I exhale too closely to the harp when it is out of my mouth where with some Hohners I can barely play 1/2 of the same notes in the same amount of breath due to having to expend so much more air for the same volume of sound.
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rabbit
14 posts
Apr 01, 2009
11:32 PM
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snakes,
Tell me please, specifically which
Suzukis are that sensitive, please?
Thanks
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DaDoom
64 posts
Apr 01, 2009
11:51 PM
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@rabbit
Suzukis are generally airtight. Especially the Promasters (MR-350), the Hammond Mouth organs (HA-20) and the Firebreath (MR-550). Even the cheaper Bluesmaster (MR-250) seems OK as far as air tightness is concerned. The HA-20 has so many screws to fix the reed plates to the comb that leaking is virtually impossible.
In my experience these are the leakiest harps I've tried:
The Hohner Marine Band, The Hohner Pro Harp
If you're looking for a good, air tight, responsive harp that can overblow and overdraw well out-of the-box, buy a Suzuki Firebreath. You wont regret it.
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GermanHarpist
258 posts
Apr 02, 2009
3:31 AM
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I don't think air leakage has so much to do with the coverplates, rather how the reed gaps are set up.
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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JoetheMagician
3 posts
Apr 02, 2009
5:22 AM
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I got the Hohner Piedmont blues harp set from Musicians friend. It was very leaky. They are cheap plastic harps. I like the case they came in. Other than that I would not recommend them.
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mr_so&so
68 posts
Apr 02, 2009
8:41 AM
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This topic comes up every once in a while and various harps get slagged or praised. Ultimately, excluding the toy harps, it's a personal preference. There are lots of reasons why one harp may be easier to play than another, and this does not always have anything to do with the quality of the harp. Some non-quality (but preference) factors are:
1. size of the air chambers (length varies)
2. size and thickness of the reeds
3. the key of the harp (this is really #2 again)
Quality issues that do matter w.r.t. playability are:
4. flatness of reed plates and comb and how well they fit together (air tightness)
5. tolerances between reeds and reed slots (which is often customized or improved by the end-user via "embossing")
6. the arc and gap of the reed w.r.t. the reed plate (again, often customized or modified)
Only items 4 and 5 really have anything to do with leakiness. As for loudness, this has everything to do with the cover plate design and how you are cupping the harp. Again, not a quality issue.
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snakes
155 posts
Apr 02, 2009
10:51 PM
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rabbit,
You can't go wrong with a Bluesmaster as they are about a $25.00 harp and the Suzuki's just keep getting better from there.
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rabbit
15 posts
Apr 03, 2009
2:21 AM
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Thanks to everyone for their input.
I'm definitely going to try a Bluesmaster
and a 'Promaster' or better grade Suzuki.
I'll eventually report results.
mr_so&so's reasoning that responsiveness & much of the
sense of leakiness resides in the reeds/plates appeals to
me. I now know I want a replaceable reed system.
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snakes
162 posts
Apr 03, 2009
10:31 PM
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Promaster reeds are replaceable and I am told they can be used in the Bluesmaster as well.
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Aussiesucker
236 posts
Apr 03, 2009
11:10 PM
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If $$$s are a consideration ie are they not for everybody these days, then a good cheap airtight harp is the Chinese made Suzuki Folkmaster. They are a small plastic bodied harp about the size of a Marine Band. The only criticism is they are not loud but they are certainly airtight as the reed plates have 7 screws holding them.
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jonsparrow
335 posts
May 23, 2009
11:08 PM
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so if i lower the gap on a reed it will be more air tight?
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wheezer
77 posts
May 24, 2009
2:47 AM
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@johnsparrow
Chris Michaleck (I hope I've spelt that right) who I think is Buddah on this forum, has a youtube video that will show you everything you need to know about setting the reeds. It realy is a 'must see' if you are going to tinker with your reeds. Do as he does in the vid and you will be well on the way.
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jawbone
34 posts
May 24, 2009
7:35 AM
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I have tried sp 20's, Big River, Marine Band, Lee Osker, Delta Frost, Suzuki Harpmaster and Bluesmaster. At first I loved the reponsiveness of the Delta Frost and the Suzuki but after awhile I found that in the heat of playing live with the adrenaline rushing I would sometimes choke them (I know this is a bad habit and one I am constantly working on)I also found I didn't like the crispness of the ET tuning - it sounded harsh when playing with the band. Since I liked the JI tuning of the Hohners and the price of the Big River but hated the feel and since I love the feel of the Suzuki Bluesmaster but don't like the tuning - I married the two - I trim the ends off of the Big River plates then trim the lip off the back of the Bluesmaster comb, drill new holes, emboss the reed plate to tighten it up a bit - voila - my "Big Master" or "Blues River" I find this easier than retuning and I'm not sure I would get rid of the crispness. I haven't tried this with the Sp 20 plate yet but that may be the route I may go - time will tell.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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jawbone
35 posts
May 24, 2009
7:40 AM
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Hey Rabbit - I got a bit off track - If I was you I would try either a Bushman Delta Frost or a Suzuki Harpmaster. If you are just starting out, as you find the ways and means to obtain new keys etc. try different brands and models - only you knows what feels good and sounds good to you - and it's a wonderful adventure!!!
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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congaron
2 posts
May 24, 2009
11:04 AM
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I just ordered three more suzuki harpmasters. I currently play hohner blues harps in c and d. The d harp has issues i can't seem to tune out of it. It leaks too. The c harp is fine. I also have a special 20 in a. It is fine. My suzuki folkmaster in Bb isn't even close to airtight. I am replacing the d harp and the Bb with new harpmasters after trying one in g and one in e for the last couple of months. I also have one in F coming. Mine can be softly exhaled to play from about an inch away if you are directly inline with the holes. I really like them and will probably replace both the remaining hohners eventually with these. The amount of air i can conserve is huge and this really makes a difference in the traditional long blues endings my band likes to play since nobody but me is trying to do it in one breath (sometimes)...Lol. O also get a nice raspy tone when I want it from these. My favorites so far with my limited experience. I have less than 3 months experience, but I can play accurate bent notes in music on my suzukis, the special 20 and the c blues harp. The others are simply too inconsistent for me in the amount of airflow up and down the scales. Hope that helps.
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rabbit
34 posts
May 24, 2009
3:17 PM
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Nice to see this thread revived, I'm taking it all in.
Will definitely try Suzuki. Been held up lately
on all my plans.
There's a guy on another forum with a tag line
that goes, "Some days it isn't worth chewing
through the restraints." Lately, I agree with him!
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jbone
80 posts
May 24, 2009
4:56 PM
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mr. so&so nailed it imho. actual leaks are from a poorly fitting reed plate-to comb or possibly an ill-fitting cover plate. many harps have 3 screws holding plate to comb and then the 2 cover plate screws additionally hold out toward the ends of the harp. but it would have to be a very badly warped plate or poorly machined comb to cause actual noticeable leaking.
stiff reeds can be mistaken for leaks. and a failure by the player to achieve a good seal harp to lips is another area. of course gapping enters in someplace. depending on how the reed plate/comb/covers are made there can be an opportunity to have leaks there. i like a harp, personally, where the reed plate doesn't hang over the comb too much, and the cover is more or less even with the reed plate.
after one tries enough different harps, and succeeds with them, these things shrink in importance. either you will like the harp and learn to adapt to its idiosyncracies or you will try another brand/style.
funny, for about 100 years people learned to play harps out of the box. in recent decades we have "discovered" all these so-called issues with harps. some of them are real. quality has become less as new materials and manufacturing techniques- designed to get more product for less effort, and make better money- have entered the picture. i have to wonder if say robert johnson- who started out blowing harp- had had a better instrument, if he'd have stuck with harp instead of going to guitar. and i wonder too if many of us had had the more limited choices of pre-1970's, would we have adapted to what was available, or found another instrument?
for a time, i bought and sealed marine band harps. i used beeswax and a lot of caution since beeswax can flash at fairly low temps. i would drill, tap, deburr, seal, and reassemble a harp in maybe 3 hours. but guess what- the harp may have been tighter, but for me at that time, i would blow out a reed just as quick as on a total stock harp! this has led me to believe that what i do from my abdomen all the way through my lips has much more to do with how a harp performs.
i know guys who play only old, vintage marine band harps because the materials were superior when they were made, and easier to work on the reeds etc. they work on their own harps, gapping, embossing, etc etc. and i respect that. but my patience, eyesight, and maybe hearing let alone the time commitment, have kept me buying stock harps for years. and adapting to them, or finding another brand or style. and i do ok that way.
i usually drive a fairly used car. when it begins to cost more than i want to put in it to keep it running i find another one. maybe that's how i am with harps too.
one other thought. i used to blow out reeds on harp after harp, sometimes in a very short time. when i finally realized it wasn't the harp's fault, but MINE- and began to learn more about deep breathing and the air column we all have available- i have blown very few reeds in the past 2 years.
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