gene
155 posts
Apr 05, 2009
3:15 AM
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I was looking around the web and I found out that cold and flu viruses can live outside the human body for only a few seconds to 48 hours. I didn't see any problem with a customizer playing somebody's harp to test it. But then I read that hepatitus can live for a few months.
I also found the following from here:
http://www.harmonicalessons.com/repairs_clean.html
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Is it possible to completely sterilize my harmonica?- The answer comes from one of our friends in the medical industry:
"It is true that Hydrogen Peroxide will not completely sterilize a harmonica. Unfortunately, true sterilization is very difficult. In the medical office, we use an autoclave (combination of high temperature and high pressure), which is very reliable, but expensive and not available to the public. In addition, autoclave conditions can damage many materials -- I have my doubts that a harmonica would survive. Gas sterilization is used as an alternative for medical instruments such as arthroscopes, etc. which contain latex, plastic, or other materials which would not survive in an autoclave. This is also not available to the public.
The general public has access to soap and water, rubbing alcohol, and hydrogen peroxide. Of these, alcohol is probably the best disinfectant, but again this depends on the contact time, and not all organisms can be killed with this. Protected areas (i.e. under a reed plate, etc) may harbor organisms and the alcohol may not penetrate there, limiting its effectiveness. Alcohol also needs to be rinsed off very well. Peroxide is effective for certain organisms, but as I recall, its action spectrum is not as broad as alcohol. I do not know the effects of alcohol or peroxide on the long-term viability of the harmonica itself."
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So, how in the heck does a customizer test harmonicas?! A bellows can't do bends and overblows/overdraws, can it?
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Buddha
225 posts
Apr 05, 2009
3:32 AM
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I don't work when I'm ill. All harps get a bath in the ultra sonic cleaner that contains an acid.
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Oisin
167 posts
Apr 05, 2009
3:39 AM
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I use absolute ethanol to sterilise my harps. ( I get this from work). I actually work as a production manager for a pharma company making sterile products so I know quite a bit about making things sterile.
An autoclave will ruin your harp..as it states above it reaches temperatures of >121c and a pressure of about 3 bar. It also pulls vacuum and injects steam during the process so I would imagine you would be left with a sterile but unplayable harp after a cycle in an autoclave.
We also use hydrogen peroxide to sterilse isolators but the peroxide has to be in vapour form and you need a vapour generating machine to do this, so this option is also out. Liquid peroxide will probably do quite a good job at killing bugs if you left the component parts in the liquid for a few hours but it is a very strong oxidising agent and would react with the metal reed and cover plates and I'm sure it would do some bad things to a plastic or wooded comb.
I would recommend that you take your harp apart after you have finished working on it, spray all of the parts with the strongest alcohol you can get, allow it to evaporate, then do it again and wipe off with a clean cloth. Finally spray it again and allow to evaporate. Then reassemble the harp and give it a final wipe over with an alcohol impregnated cloth.
If you have a wooden comb then I would just wipe this over a few times with the alcohol soaked cloth as it will swell if left to soak too long.
Remember that when you buy the harp it is not sterile and although the manufacturing process does not involve a worker blowing into the harp, they will have touched the reedplates and various other parts of the harp during final assembly.
You will never get a truly sterile instrument but you can get a very well disinfected harp.
I would imagine Buddha uses a similar technique when he is finished customising his harps too.
Oisin
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gene
156 posts
Apr 05, 2009
4:03 AM
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Hmmm...
If you're working on somebody's harp, how 'bout just plinking it and hope for the best?
As far as a harp not coming sterile from the factory, how long would you guess it is between the time it gets packaged until you get it in hand?
Chris, I read that you buy a new harp to customize rather than having a customer sending his harp to you. Good idea!!
(...So...I'm not the only night owl around here, huh?)
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2009 4:08 AM
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Oisin
168 posts
Apr 05, 2009
5:16 AM
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Well it's actually 13:10 here in London!!
I wouldn't worry too much about sterility of equipment Gene. As long as it's clean you should be ok. You just don't want to use something that's going to leave a taste on the harp and ethanol is the best stuff for that.
As the time between packaging and playing a harp, well i guess that will depend on where the harps are sent to and how popular harps are in that area. I've seen boxes of NOS harps on eaby that look like they've been sat around for a few years.
Plinking the reed will give you good indication of how it sounds but if you are using a electronic tuner to tune the reeds I would doubt that it would pick up a strong enough signal for the tuner to work. I could be wrong on that though.
Oisin
Oisin
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scottb
7 posts
Apr 05, 2009
6:34 AM
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I agree with Oisin. True sterility is not really needed. Think about all the things we come in contact with that are not sterile. Forks and spoons at restuarants (not to mention the food,) public water fountains, subway benches, etc.
Luckily, disease causing organisms don't do well outside the body.
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jbone
41 posts
Apr 05, 2009
11:15 AM
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okay, i had to say something here. from the time we're infants, we're exposed to millions of germs. we get sick sometimes and this serves a purpose: it makes us more resistant to future infections. and kids put all manner of things in their mouth, and mostly survive and thrive.
ever think about cash money? one of the dirtiest mediums there ever was, and most of us handle money every day, then itch our nose, rub and eye, whatever. nearly every bill by this time has minute traces of cocaine on it due to the drug trade by the way.
i have been messing around with harps for decades. in the first couple of decades my harps were lucky to get a beer bath or the occasional tap water rinse. when i began getting more serious, i began using 91% alcohol as a cleaning agent. any time i had the covers off the harps got a rinse and wipe. but for the most part i am not mi9ster fastidious about cleaning my harps.
granted i don't handle others' harps and nobody handles mine. that's akin to sharing toothbrushes or boxers imho. but the point i'm trying to make is, unless you are sure someone sends you a harp with anthrax or aids, you needn't be too paranoid. it's like george carlin talked about 20 years ago. his antibodies sported grenade launcher-equipped m16's. and body armor! he sent his antibodies nasty bugs just to keep them in shape!
how many times have you dropped a harp on stage and it was the middle of a solo and you never thought twice but picked up where you left off? believe me i have done this.
i am not a doctor nor do i portray one on tv, but i know the human body is comprised of BILLIONS of "germs", all with some symbiosis that benefits us. one of my favorite commercials is for one of those hand sanitizer gels where the little boy is a walking germ distributor while the little girl is all innocence and sweetness and cleanliness.
i never play another person's harp, nobody plays mine but me. i trust a customizer, on the rare occasions when i can afford a custom- and by extension the builders of the out-of-box harps i buy- to take reasonable steps to keep me from dying from some badass disease. but to me the odds are far against getting ill from a harp.
just my 2 cents, garnered from 36 years of messing with harps, mics, and loose women (longer on the loose women).
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The Happy Harper
30 posts
Apr 05, 2009
11:22 AM
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Oisin,
Can absolute ethanol be purchased by the public and is it safe to store/use in a domestic environment.
would it also be ok to soak the parts for a bit or would the ethanol just evaporate out of the container before it did the job?
I was trying to look into a 'green' healthy way of doing this same thing.
someone mentioned clove oil but i am not sure what that would do to the harp.
Thanks for these answers folks.
Jason
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Aussiesucker
237 posts
Apr 05, 2009
2:03 PM
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I am fanatical about cleaning my harps using soap and water and soaking the plates in a denture cleanser. It's probably more of a feel good proceedure plus it makes my harps look , feel and taste ok.
As far as germs are concerned it would be more a case of personal hygiene ie we should probably always wash our hands before touching a harp as any germs picked up by our hands would end up in our mouth. But do we?
I don't allow anyone to touch my harps and certainly would not allow anyone to use them. We do not know what procedures, if any, are followed in factories that assemble harps. Are they finally sterilised before packaging? Customisers are probably even more careful?
Harps did present me with dreadful health problems ie for years I was allergic to the nickel that was used in harps up until nearly a decade ago. Modern harps dont worry me.
However I think that harps offer far more health benefits than negatives ie the breathing is good for cardiovascular health and for those who suffer from bronchial/ asthma problems.
But, always wash your hands.
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gene
157 posts
Apr 05, 2009
2:46 PM
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I'm not a germaphobe. Heck, I drop food on a dirty floor and don't think twice about picking it up and eating it. There are millions of viruses, but relatively few are harmful to the human body, and even fewer that can live without a host for any length of time.
But then there's Hepatitus...It can live for months without a host. After contracting the disease, the symptoms don't show up until about 3 months later. A person can carry the virus without ever knowing it.
I guess the odds are extremely slim for catching some serious disease from a harp. Nonetheless, if I ever customize harps other than my own(very doubtful), I'll do like Chris: customize a new one.
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gene
158 posts
Apr 05, 2009
4:34 PM
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great :(
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Aussiesucker
239 posts
Apr 05, 2009
4:39 PM
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gene: If you drop your bread it's the 10 second rule ie provided you dont drop it buttered side down!
I agree we can go overboard but the germs are out there. Also with every germ we pick up we combat with antibiotics which make us more susceptable to picking up even more germs as our immune system becomes less able to fight. Vicious circle. But we are living longer!
If we push too hard all Harmonicas will eventually come with a Health warning and the price will rise accordingly to cover the liability payouts each time we catch cold.
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2009 4:43 PM
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oldwailer
652 posts
Apr 05, 2009
7:32 PM
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Well, I just love to pick up a used harp on ebay for a buck or two--then clean the hell out of it with Isopropyl alcohol--seal the comb about four times if it is a MB--adjust the reeds a bit--and blow the hell out of it.
A couple of rinses in Gordon's Dry Gin help a lot--of course, if you use enough gin, the 10 second rule is automatically extended to about 17 hours ;-)
Some of my best harps are used--and I ain't dead yet...
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Aussiesucker
241 posts
Apr 05, 2009
8:48 PM
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Oldwailer: your use for Gordons Gin is way too extreme. Can think of a much better use.
Wouldn't the reverse rule apply ie if we carefully steralise ourselves consuming an appropriate quantity of alcohol (Gin or Whisky) then we couldn't be infected by any harp?
PS Vodka or any other 'Rocket Fuel' should also work!
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2009 8:52 PM
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oldwailer
655 posts
Apr 05, 2009
9:04 PM
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Never thought of that! Snakes had some black label Rum last night that will probably have me sterilized for at least another couple of days!
Maybe I wasn't really clear about how the Gin is applied. . .
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snakes
163 posts
Apr 05, 2009
9:30 PM
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Oldwailer,
At our age sterilization is a moot point. LOL!
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Aussiesucker
242 posts
Apr 05, 2009
9:34 PM
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Hey OW a bottle of Gordons Gin here costs $40. For this I can buy a brand new Bluesmaster and leave it unsteralized.
With the Gordons I would start by applying it lightly ie a large nip with ice.
Those crappy old marine bands can quickly be cleaned up in petrol and striking with a match. No more germs.
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oldwailer
656 posts
Apr 05, 2009
9:34 PM
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Yeah Snakes, but I still have my dreams!
Aussie--LOL! MB is my favorite harp!--But, you probably knew that. . .
Last Edited by on Apr 05, 2009 9:36 PM
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Aussiesucker
243 posts
Apr 05, 2009
10:07 PM
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Yes I did know MBs were your favourites OW. Just having a go!
Petrol would work though? Leaves a nasty taste Yuk!
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Oisin
171 posts
Apr 05, 2009
11:55 PM
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Hey jason, you won't be able to buy absolute alcohol (100% alcohol by volume) but you can buy strong medical alcohol from most chemist shops (I beleive you guys call them drug stores) and much as it pains me to say it, you can use Gordon's Gin to do this but this would make me cry...what a waste!
To stop evaporation just place the alcohol in a jar with an airtight lid and place the alcohol and the harp parts in there.
I used to buy a lot of old harps off ebay and this is what I do with them but I always take them apart and I don't put the wooden combs in there, just give them a wipe.
Every couple of months I take my playing harps apart and give them a quick wipe over with alcohol.
I think this thread started with Gene asking about cleaning other people's harps and that's what I'd use alcohol for. I don't worry too much if my own harps don't get cleaned in a while ...it adds character!!
Oisin
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Oliver
45 posts
Apr 06, 2009
3:41 PM
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LOL, def do NOT attempt a soaking in bleach!
After a few too many one night (OK, a lot too many), I dropped a D Marine Band down the loo (don't ask).
Horrified, I soaked the harp in a mixture of water and bleach in a pint glass, then passed out and forgot about it until I fished it out the next morning.
It was of course completely ruined! The comb had gone a very strange colour and swollen to about twice its natural size, the tin coverplates were nice and shiny, but the pins (I'm guessing made of something containing iron?) had completely oxidised and had almost corroded away to nothing. It was a complete mess.
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oldwailer
662 posts
Apr 06, 2009
3:48 PM
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Yeah, so there was this guy who went into the two holer with a friend--while doing their business, one of them dropped a D blues harp into the horror hole.
So the guy immediately throws in an A MB and a LO Natural Minor harp behind it.
The friend says "Are you nuts? You just threw away two good harps on purpose!"
The guy answers "If you think I'm going down there for a fu*kin' D Blues harp you're crazy!"
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The Happy Harper
31 posts
Apr 07, 2009
8:36 PM
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hey there is a whole market in harmonica condoms just waiting to be exploited!!! anyone want it?
Thanks Oisin for the response. I will probably then just take apart my own harps every month or so and wipe them down with isoprpyl alchol from the drug store if the medical stuff is too pricey.
thanks
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