tombo
7 posts
Apr 07, 2009
11:09 PM
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Hi can anyone tell me what key to play in for Tom pettys alices last dance the band I jam with play in Am so do I need to be playing Dm? Think the harp is in 1st pos.
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MrVerylongusername
226 posts
Apr 08, 2009
1:37 AM
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Hi Tombo - Use a G harp (BTW it's Mary Jane's Last Dance) Once you're using the right key, you should be able to figure it out, but I'm sure there are harp tabs for it somewhere.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
30 posts
Apr 08, 2009
4:48 AM
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I look at it that Am = no sharps and flats so C harp in 1st position. Am I missing something here?
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MrVerylongusername
227 posts
Apr 08, 2009
5:23 AM
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@Lumpy
That's correct, you could play the riff on a C harp (that would make it 4th position). On the recording, Tom Petty uses a G harp (3rd position) probably because that position allows different intonation on the notes. 3rd always has a bluesier feel to me than 4th. BTW oddly the recorded version is mastered slightly flat, so you'll struggle to play along to the record unless you can adjust the playback speed.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2009 6:15 AM
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Preston
262 posts
Apr 08, 2009
5:33 AM
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Lumpy is right about first position C harp. A is C's relative Minor. There is only one note different between them I think, but I'm not real good with the theory on Minor.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2009 5:34 AM
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Grillslinger
45 posts
Apr 08, 2009
6:19 AM
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I've always play it on a G harp in third. Third pos is usually my go-to minor position.
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Tuckster
163 posts
Apr 08, 2009
7:34 AM
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Used to do that song when it was new. Definitely a G harp. Its pretty easy to learn,although I haven't done it for years. More like Dylan than blusey,even tho its 3rd position.
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Preston
263 posts
Apr 08, 2009
8:05 AM
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From what I've heard of Petty's playing, I'm really surprised he knew what 3rd position was, let alone play in it. I guess there's usually more to somebody than meets the eye.
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lumpy wafflesquirt
31 posts
Apr 08, 2009
8:15 AM
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the original poster said 1st position. surely if the flats and sharps are the sameit is still 1st position C or Am, but then my theory is almost non existant.
:^(
Summertime in Am I play on a C harp with no problems, all the notes are there.
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MrVerylongusername
228 posts
Apr 08, 2009
8:33 AM
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When you play in the relative minor, you are playing in fourth position. You are correct in saying the scales contain all the same notes, but the tonic of the scale (starting note) is different. 'Position' simply refers to where the tonic is on your harp, therefore it cannot be 1st position, because 1st position relates to scales starting on the hole 1 blow.
Simplistically speaking, 4th position is kind of the minor key equivalent of 1st position (Dylan uses it for minor key tunes). 3rd position is the minor key equivalent of 2nd position (used for a bluesier vibe)
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Preston
264 posts
Apr 08, 2009
8:39 AM
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If I may:
Lumpy and MVLUN are BOTH correct. It is correct to play 4th position to get the minor of the key of the harp, but it also "works" when you play the major scale over it's corresponding minor keyed song. You could indeed play first position on C harp over Am track, without actually playing 4th position.
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Tuckster
165 posts
Apr 08, 2009
9:17 AM
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@preston. I thought Buddha's video clarified this,but I believe you're confusing position with modes. If you're in 1st position your harp is the same key as the song.Period. I can't say anymore than that because its over my head,but I DO know that much.
I always thought Petty was the harp player until I went to see him. The harp player is actually his keyboard player. I don't even know his name,unfortunately.
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Jim Rumbaugh
28 posts
Apr 08, 2009
9:31 AM
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Our gang, The Harmonica Club, has done this tune for years in Aminor, most of the members use a G harp, 3rd position. One guy uses a D minor harp in 2nd position. No one uses C harp in 4th, position, though they could... ( maybe ... ). The famous lick starts on the 6 draw.
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Pullis
3 posts
Apr 08, 2009
9:40 AM
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Tuckster is correct. If you play C harp 1st position you are playing C major. I think the part that confuses some people is that you use the same notes. The significant change in Am though is that the root is A instead of C, making C the flat third in the minor scale. Thus, you might be playing in Am thinking you're playing in C. Just gotta know that A is the root. Harmonic and melodic minors... now that's a whole another chapter.
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Blackbird
61 posts
Apr 08, 2009
9:55 AM
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For what my 2 cents are worth, back before I picked up a harp, I had the 'official' tab book of Tom's greatest hits, because it had some guitar stuff in it and the tab transcriptions on the 'net are too often inaccurate crap these days. For what that's worth, the key of the song is in G, and I've been able to hit the harmonica passage on a G harp but I'll be damned if I can tell you more than matching it by ear. Still working on the whole music theory part.
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Preston
265 posts
Apr 08, 2009
10:14 AM
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Tuckster,
I'm not confusing positions and modes. I know 1st position is the key of the harp. I am simply trying to tell you guys that you can play a Cmaj scale over an Amin chord and it will work, harmonize, whatever you want to call it. Why? Because it shares almost all the exact same notes.
Buddha also does a video where he plays 3rd position C harp Key of D over a Bb song, wich could also be played 11th position, but it still works.
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MrVerylongusername
229 posts
Apr 08, 2009
11:41 AM
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@Preston:
Correct. (They share ALL the same notes)
@Pullis
Sort of... actually 1st position means a scale with a C tonic. Could be any scale (depending on your bending/overblowing proficiency), but major is the obvious and easiest choice.
@Blackbird
Chords are Am G D in the verse and bridge (where the harp part comes in) and G A in the chorus - so it modulates. But the verse riff starts on the Am and resolves on the Am so that kind of says Am to me :-)
To sort the whole mess out I actually tried playing the riff on a C harp. It's nowhere near as simple as on a G harp because to get the last sustained note of the riff (A) you've got to play the bent 3 (wholestep) - it just doen't sound as clean. Also starting on draw 6 (on the G) you can bend into and out of the note, which you can't do if you start on blow 5 (on the C harp)
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Tuckster
167 posts
Apr 08, 2009
11:42 AM
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@Preston
If the song's in Bb and he's playing a C, he's NOT in 3rd position. It could be 11th,I don't know. Have to look at the circle of 5ths. But its wrong to say its 3rd. Its confusing and misinformative. I have no doubt whatever you're playing is correct for the song-you know how to play. But you can't call a pear an apple without confusion.
Last Edited by on Apr 08, 2009 11:44 AM
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DanP
72 posts
Apr 08, 2009
12:10 PM
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On a C harp, Bb is 11th position. 10th postion on a G harp and 12th position on an F harp.
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MrVerylongusername
231 posts
Apr 08, 2009
12:41 PM
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Preston's right - this is the video he's talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GVh4BE4oDE&feature=channel_page
He's playing 11th position, but using 3rd position licks. I'm hoping at this point that Chris will chip in and explain it 'cos it's making my head hurt!
I think Tombo deserves an apology - I bet you thought it was a simple question when you asked it eh?!
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Tuckster
169 posts
Apr 08, 2009
1:12 PM
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Arrgh! I watched that vid and now understand what Preston was talking about. But Chris qualifies it by saying 3rd position LICKS in 11th position. A small but very important point. IMHO
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tombo
8 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:02 AM
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Wow thanks for the feedback, u guys done my head in a bit, dident think I would get so many posts, anyway it seems to work ok on a C harp. Next time the band want to do a minor key song number I will probably go to the bar & order a guiness.
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bluesharper
14 posts
Aug 11, 2009
6:54 AM
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Am scale isnt the same as a C major scale, Am may be related to C major but in the scale of Am the 7th note is a G#.
Maybe im wrong but that what i think.
Last Edited by on Aug 11, 2009 6:55 AM
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KingoBad
65 posts
Aug 11, 2009
7:48 AM
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All possible universes and all possible time lines represent the 10th dimension. Do super-strings vibrate like harmonica reeds in the 10th dimension creating sub-atomic particles? Possibly.
Am I posting this because I can only really play 3 positions and have nothing to add to the conversation. You betcha.
Last Edited by on Aug 11, 2009 7:48 AM
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bluesharper
15 posts
Aug 11, 2009
8:09 AM
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I dont really get what your saying kingbad.
Could you please explain what you mean by the 10th dimension?
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MrVerylongusername
459 posts
Aug 11, 2009
8:22 AM
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@bluesharper:
"Am scale isnt the same as a C major scale, Am may be related to C major but in the scale of Am the 7th note is a G#."
The A natural minor scale is A B C D E F G A which is the same as the Aeolian mode of C.
The A harmonic minor scale is A B C D E F G# A
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dfwdlg
51 posts
Aug 11, 2009
10:12 AM
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Back to the original question as I am learning this song fo a Ballon Festival gig on Saturday. I've tried G, C and Am harps and for me only the G came close to the recorded version. I hear two holes (doublestop) played throughout the riff starting in the 5/6 draw. I also agree that the recording is not at standard pitch.
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XHarp
125 posts
Aug 12, 2009
8:54 AM
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Seems like there's a million different ways to play this tune. I'd say, as long as you follow the chord changes everything is going to be alright. We play it Am, G D in the verses and Em, D, G in the chorus and it sounds pretty close to the original.
The original sounds to me like a G Harp played in 3rd. For those who'd like the real challenge I use a D Harp and modify my 2nd position playing to accomodate the Am and the chorus changes. If you realize that the C is the flat third in A (D Harp, blue note 3 draw) and G is the flat third in E, (D Harp 5 draw) and you follow that thought process, It works out great unless of course I personally screw it up in the performance.
Neat to see all the different takes on it. One thing for sure, I don't imagine Tom Petty made it all too complicated.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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bluesharper
20 posts
Aug 14, 2009
5:55 AM
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@Mrverylongusername
But arent we talking about positions?
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