harmonicanick
233 posts
Apr 09, 2009
4:43 PM
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A harp buddy said to me you have to block for the blues....
Well blocking or pursing you are still perfoming the same action; I get good tone from pursing, should I learn blocking as a technique.
Playing from the soul is more important methinks?!
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Philosofy
169 posts
Apr 09, 2009
5:18 PM
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You can't vamp by lip pursing, and its better for learning octaves. You also get better tone. Joe Fillisko considers it essential, and he knows more that I do.
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Buddha
247 posts
Apr 09, 2009
5:34 PM
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better tone is a myth. My tone is the same if I TB or pucker. Everybody should know how to do both and pick the style you personally like best.
For me, it's a style thing. When I play traditional style blues, I almost always TB. When I play all of my other evil incarnate and other wise outerspace BS then I typically pucker but I do some TB at times.
It is simply another method to producing single notes and the way to get octave splits.
Joey is a dear friend but he's a traditionalist. I am an innovator.
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DanP
73 posts
Apr 09, 2009
5:48 PM
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I second what Philosofy said. I have no doubt that you get a better tone by tongue blocking. Plus with tongue blocking you're in the position to play octaves,chords, tongue slaps and other special effects. When playing folk-style melodies, you can play rhythm along with your lead notes. It is harder to bend notes using the tongue blocking method, which is probably why some blues players never learn the method. I think tongue blocking is essential for being a good all-around player. I liken a harmonica player who only lip-purses to a guitar player who only plays single notes and never plays chords. Just my opinion.
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Oisin
183 posts
Apr 09, 2009
5:56 PM
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Nick..It's also good for tongue slapping and getting a rythym going. It takes a little practice but I didn't find it that hard to acquire TBing skills.
I use both methods when playing. The guy who used to teach me only tongue blocked and had completely lost the ability to lip purse which I found hard to understand but he was an out and out trad player too and he thought lip pursing sounded too "reedy" as he called it.
The one thing it did take me a bit of time to master was bending while tongue blocking and I found that mouth shape was the secret to getting this. However I can get a better 2 draw bend and vibrato lip pursing than tongue blocking.
Oisin
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Buddha
248 posts
Apr 09, 2009
6:24 PM
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Ok Dan. I challenge you to find ONE player on this planet that TBs and has a better pure acoustic tone than me. This is not an ego things, I am not supernatural, I'm being completely realistic.
I'm telling you, I'm a tone freak, there IS NO DIFFERENCE between the two methods if you know how to do them correctly. I posted some blues videos, I know on one of them I did most of it via TB.
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Philosofy
170 posts
Apr 09, 2009
6:43 PM
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Can you get good tone while lip pursing? Sure. But its easier for a beginner to get better tone while TB'ing. Beginner players tend to pucker, pushing the harp away from their mouth. While TB'ing, the harp is further in your mouth. Check out one of Adam's first YT videos: one of the secret he reveals is to get the harp further into your mouth.
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Buddha
249 posts
Apr 09, 2009
7:02 PM
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Philosofy, you can do the same with the pucker method. Tone is about resonance. A hole in the mouth is a hole in the mouth.
If you can't get a decent tone via puckering then you don't do it right. It's as simple as that.
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Buddha
250 posts
Apr 09, 2009
7:09 PM
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BTW- I'm not advocating one method over the other. I'm saying its silly to think TB gives a thicker tone.
This discussion is one of the dumbest in the world of harmonica. Learn both, each has its advantages and disadvantages BUT tone is not even a factor.
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oldwailer
673 posts
Apr 09, 2009
7:12 PM
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Those who get a worse tone while LPing have not tasted the wrath of the monkey's paw.
I just don't see how anyone could be a real harp player and not TB AND LP. One isn't better than the other--one isn't really harder than the other--they are just two distinct ways to get music out of a harp--both of them can pull out a wonderful tone if you know what you are doing. . .
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Preston
266 posts
Apr 09, 2009
7:24 PM
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This IS a silly debate. It's tired too. How many times has this come up on this forumn alone? I don't tongue block very much, but the tongue slap is some cool shit. Playing rythm tongue slaps along with your lead notes starts sounding like Carnival music after awhile if you do it too much.
I think one of the advantages of Lip Blocking is the tongue flick. Sure can't do that tongue blocking.
Let's all learn both.
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DanP
74 posts
Apr 09, 2009
8:40 PM
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Buddah: You are a great player and I admire your playing a great deal. I also respect your professional opinion but I would venture to say that there are other professional players who would differ with you. I know that you, as a superb harmonica player, can get a great tone with either method. I hope I'm not offending anybody on the forum by guessing that 99.9% of the rest of us here are not as good as you. I'm only trying to help some of the people on the forum by sharing what I've learned. Many people who are starting out get a weak tone because they are not putting the harp deep enough in their mouth and it's easier to put the harp deep enough by tongue blocking. I'm just giving my opinions(which are not set in stone) and I try to stay out of arguments.
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Buddha
251 posts
Apr 09, 2009
8:58 PM
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There are NO pro players that know me personally that do not respect my tone. Most of them have asked me for lessons on tone. So don't venture to say anything unless you know for sure. I do.
Great tone has nothing to do with shoving the harp into your mouth as far as you can. Its about creating a resonating chamber for the frequency you are playing.
So until you can produce a TB player with better acoustic tone than myself or even Howard Levy then you must concede that I am correct.
Like I said before, a hole in your head is a hole in your head and in this case, you can create that hole with TBing or Puckering.
Most of you guys need to rethink how you are learning the harmonica and who you are learning from. Of course if you're learning from Joey then you are very much on the right track.
Sorry for being so bold here but I am nothing more than a beacon of truth for you.
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Philosofy
171 posts
Apr 09, 2009
9:07 PM
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You're wrong. The question isn't about whether good tone can be achieved with LP, its about whether or not a beginning harp player should learn to TB. The answer is yes. You must concede that I am correct. Among the many reasons a beginner should learn to TB is that TBing can give better tone for a beginner. You're not a beginner, so how you play has nothing to do with it. I known you're opinionated, and I've been told that you just don't come off well on the printed page. I've been told that by people I trust, so I'll trust them. But please don't twist the argument just to prove yourself right or to boast about how you are the best harp player so your opinion is the only one that matters.
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Patrick Barker
226 posts
Apr 09, 2009
9:17 PM
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Learn both! I find that my tone is the same either way, but there is some awesome stuff that you can only do tongue blocking.
Just listening to certain people like Kim Wilson made me want to tongue block- you can totally hear it in their sound- but its not their tone, its the other notes coming in with the articulation of a single note that sounds cool
Also, one of my favorite players Billy Gibson often uses tongue blocking for effect as well but I think he normally lip purses for his fast stuff.
Another thing- talk to any famous modern blues harmonica player (Gussow, Jason Ricci, Buddha-- they're all parts of these forums etc) and they'll all tell you that they use both. If you want to be a good modern player, you should add anything and everything to your list of tricks- TB, LP, OB's, Octaves, 2-5 bent octave, Overdraws (not that I can do them), blow bends, toungue slaps, hand effects, etc. That's what makes a versitile player.
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"Without music, life would be a mistake" -Nietzsche
Last Edited by on Apr 09, 2009 9:18 PM
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Buddha
252 posts
Apr 09, 2009
9:18 PM
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STFU Philosfy seriously. I didn't twist anything. The question is
"I get good tone from pursing, should I learn blocking as a technique."
The answer is you should learn both.
What you, danP and others are contending is the TB is better for beginners. I'm tell you either way is fine but a good player will want to learn boast.
I'm not here to boast, my work speaks for yourself. So if you see it as boasting then that's an issue with your ego not mine.
I will never claim to be "the best" that's stupid but I do know what I know and I know that most of what I know is correct and I can prove it.
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Oisin
185 posts
Apr 09, 2009
9:34 PM
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Hey Chris...I think that sometimes you blind us with that beacon of yours.
I was a real wise ass at school and eventually got expelled. It was a grammar school and I ended up going to a state school where the academic standard was a little lower. In my first week there I was asked to help out teaching 14 year olds how to read a clock (I swear!!). I remember saying to the teacher how come you didn't teach these kids something as basic a clock reading?They all can't be stupid. He told me " You got to realise that not everyone is as smart as you boy" That was a real eye opener for me and a very humbling experience.
You see where I'm going with this? Your trying to teach us some great stuff but the delivery sometimes can come across like we're can't read clocks. Instead of taking in what your saying we end up reacting to how your saying it.
I think that this is what the guys above are trying to say.
Oisin
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Oisin
186 posts
Apr 09, 2009
9:59 PM
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Hey Zhin...There is no need to be so abusive man. All I was trying to say was that we are all different and react to what people say differently. I think you need to re-read Adams advice on how we should comminicate with each other at the top of the forum page.
You've taken what I said and twisted it into something that's a million miles from what I was trying to say. I'm not a bigger man than anyone and the story I told isn't bullshit...it's just me trying to respectfully say that sometimes people can get offended by the way Chris says things.
I have had some excellent conversations with you about technical stuff on this forum and always thought you were an ok guy but I'm really hurt by what you've just posted.
Oisin
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Oisin
187 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:17 PM
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So who Skypes you to tell you when you're out of line?
Oisin
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Buddha
253 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:23 PM
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I don't sugar coat and I don't pussy foot. I don't play that way either. I've said this before, I am here to help you. So if you're a beginner its best to take my advice or don't but whatever you do don't be an idiot and argue with me when it's clear you don't know about something. DanP is an example of this... he says my advice doesn't matter because I'm an advanced player? OK, that's the dumbest **** I have ever read. For one, I WAS a beginner and I was able to work through the issues in one way or another. AND I am a teacher, my students are literally located all over the world and they comprise of some of the world's top players as well as some of the rankest beginners.
So listen to other beginners if you want, I'm not offened, but I do feel insulted when an idiot argues with me when they are clearly wrong.
Many of you need to understand than many of the world's top harmonica players are friends. Or I have worked with them in one way or another.
Finally, if you get offended by what I say then it's an issue with YOUR ego not mine. As contrary as this sounds, I carry far less ego than most of you. I do however, know exactly where I stand in the world of harmonica. I can also guarantee you that I know and have used every technique that can be applied to the diatonic harmonica.
You don't have to respect me, you don't even have to temper your words with me, but know that I give you all just as much respect as I do anybody.
I do what needs to be done and I say it like it is. There is no doubt that I play at a world-class level and when I was a young player, I would be doing everything I could to learn from that person if I had the opportunity. Do you think that attitude helped advance me to my current playing level? YES, and that is precisely the reason I am here. I didn't have that opportunity so here I am for YOU. Aside from making friends in Oldwailer, Issac, Zhin and any potential new ones, this forum or any other has no benefit for me. I am here for you and my goal is to help you be better players, not tell you how great you are when you're not.
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Buddha
254 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:32 PM
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Ok ladies and gents. lets get back on track.
The answer to the question is LEARN BOTH techniques but start with whatever is most comfortable for you as that will be your quickest path to success.
Peace to you all. You're all good peeps in my book.
I'm gonna finish tuning one more harp and then watch planet of the apes or something.
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Spl20
27 posts
Apr 09, 2009
10:54 PM
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Budda Qoute:
Great tone has nothing to do with shoving the harp into your mouth as far as you can. Its about creating a resonating chamber for the frequency you are playing.
Thanks for confirming this, I would just about gag on the darn thing trying to get better tone, I finally gave up continued to practice where I discovered exactly what you said here.
The ques to me really isn't which technique should I use but the question "what picture I'm I trying to paint" Thats the technique you need to use. Seems to me the ques are reversed.
Adam talks all the time about using a "poor" technique to thin out the tone to produce a different "color" if you will.
I never understood the idea that I should not try to have all the tools I can to be the best I can. Do you?? If you can't TB it's ok but keep trying it will come I'm no pro (far from it) but I can TB not everything but I won't stop trying and niether should you.
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oda
66 posts
Apr 09, 2009
11:16 PM
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It's really pointless when things get hostile. So calm down everyone :)
On topic:
I lip purse but I TB for tongueslaps/octaves (but I can't bend while TB) does that mean I can do both? what does "learn both" mean? have I learned both by my statement above, or does that mean I should be able to bend with TB? right now I'm comfortable with moving back and forth LP/TB but I can't bend with TB is all.
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Pullis
6 posts
Apr 10, 2009
12:47 AM
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Overdramatizing rocks :P
"I lip purse but I TB for tongueslaps/octaves (but I can't bend while TB) does that mean I can do both?"
Well, IMHO it does. At least to a certain extent. You play single notes lip pursing but use tongue blockin for the stuff impossible to do while LPing. That makes a pretty "complete" playing style which lets you play highly varied repertoire of stuff. But, as someone mentioned in the thread before, there is that 2hole bent 5hole octave split that one should learn, and when you got that I think you could say you can do both.
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Oisin
189 posts
Apr 10, 2009
1:18 AM
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Zhin...please re-read my posts above and you will see that I was very respectful in everything I said. I didn't offend anyone and the only thing I was trying to say is that the message can get lost in the way it's delivered. I have the greatest respect for Buddha...he has personally given me some great advice
and I think he's a great guy.
But I think you've taken everything I've said in the wrong way. I haven't abused you in any way but if you think i have I apologise.
The regular posters on this forum who've read what I've posted in the past will know that I've never tried to offend anyone and I think the fact that you've edited your posts speaks volumes.Perhaps you were a little harsh with your comments?? Calling me names and telling me what kind of person I am when you don't know me seems a very strange thing to do.
Life is too short to argue man over something so petty so as far as I'm concerned this conversation is over.
Amen
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harmonicanick
234 posts
Apr 10, 2009
1:39 AM
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Old Wailer - 673 posts
Harmonicanick - just about to get his 2nd lock down
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Miles Dewar
301 posts
Apr 10, 2009
2:16 AM
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harmonicanick- LOL
But I Don't agree with any of you when you say that we should not argue or get hostile here. I think when Buddah says that he doesn't sugar coat things he is referring to us always coming back to trying to self "moderate" the content on the forum.
Why should we only stick to talk of Lollipops and Gum-Drops?
Arguing is not a bad thing. Hostility isn't either. If you are offended... one simple solution... Don't read. Or smile. Or go play some harp.
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---Go Bears!!! (Jay Cutler in Chicago baby!) Where's the Pack at now?---
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 2:19 AM
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GermanHarpist
269 posts
Apr 10, 2009
3:30 AM
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Ok, I have a question:
To have a good tone while LP you have to adapt the resonance chamber that is your mouth cavity to the note/frequency. Do you do the same while TB?
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germanharpist, harpfriends on Youtube
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Tiandrézio
3 posts
Apr 10, 2009
3:35 AM
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This is my opinion.I don't know if tongue blocks gives you a better tone than lip pursing i think my tone by lip pursng it's the same as tongueblocking but i could be wrong.But the point is why are you so worried about get a fat tone, thin tone i think it' not a bad tone.For example Sonny Terry has a thin tone and he probably was one of the bet players that ever exist.
I think the tone is yor voice so you can have a thin voice and be a good singer and have a fat voice and be a bad singer, so i think have a thin tone ins't a bad thing, having a weak tone ia problem.Correct me if i'm wrong.But i think lip pursing gives you a very good tone so learn both and use both.
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rustym
26 posts
Apr 10, 2009
4:03 AM
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I'm just now starting to learn and practice TB'ing and other "tongue techniques". There was no way that I could TB in the beginning. But I worked on my tone alot based on Adam's videos. I think I have damn good tone for a beginner/intermediate player. It didn't come from TB'ing.
I want to be a "good player" so to me that involves whatever technique we have to employ. I'm a Kim Wilson fanatic and you can't play his stuff without TB'ing.
Also, if you're playing fast scales or triplet runs, how do you do that TB'ing? We've all heard amazing players such as Buddha, Adam, Jason play some mad scales and runs and their tone sounds good to me.
Learn everything you can. I was really struggling with the 10 hole blow bends and couldn't get squat from the 10 hole. I watched one of Buddha's video lessons when OW was with him and he said two words that transformed my upper register playing. BACK PRESSURE. That has to do with the resonance we've all talked about and that, is what TONE is all about.
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djm3801
79 posts
Apr 10, 2009
5:05 AM
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Rusty ,akes a great point. If I had to learn using only thr tnopgue blocking method, I would not be playing today. I get good tone out of EITHER method. Either method can produce poor tone if done wrong. I am incorporating some tongue blocking because there are a few things you cannot do without it. Octaves are simple. Other techniques like tongue slapping a bit more difficult to do unless you practice. But - out of the gate - lip pursing is easier to learn and, in the long run, allows me to incorporate other effects as well. I respect techniques of all the pros here but the tone thing I believe can be achieved by either method if you are a good player.
Tongue blocking gets more spit in my harp when I play too. But I am probably doing somethgin wrong.
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kudzurunner
346 posts
Apr 10, 2009
5:35 AM
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Zhin:
I'm glad you apologized and toned it down. Your first several posts above were out of line; they plainly breached the board creed. We're all ignoramuses at some point, but that doesn't mean we need to call each other that.
I think this whole conversation would benefit from a slightly lighter tone. (Note on fighting words: "pussy" is over the line, but "bunny" is OK, as in "You're being such a bunny.")
Like Chris, I advocate that players--beginning, advanced, whatever--do their best to learn both lip-pursing and tongue-blocking.
People who play primarily Chicago and west coast blues styles and want to replicate the classic players in those idioms need to tongue block, since it's impossible (as far as I know) to play octaves without some form of TB. From my perspective, those big octaves are THE reason to TB. The question of whether TB allow you, additionally, a deeper or better tone when playing single notes (rather than octaves) is a vexed one, as Chris has indicated.
It's a mistake to think that only traditionalists may be fierce partisans of TB. There are many innovative and advanced ways of using TB, along with bends, that owe little to tradition and everything to a jazzman's sense of experimentation and "outside" harmonies.
On the TB side: most serious overblowers tend to spend far more time LP than TB, since overblowing (as far as I know) is quite a bit harder when you TB.
All questions about technique are ultimately secondary--as, for that matter, are all questions about scales, chords, modes, customized harps, and booze. All of them are merely means to an end, which is producing good, interesting, powerful music. When we take any of them as ends in themselves, we're creating fetishes: magical totems. It's good to remember that. Keep the end in mind. Keep your mind (and your options) open, even as you gain wisdom through trial and error and accumulating experience. Some young person--a Little Stevie Wonder, for example--is always eventually going to come along and explode your certainties with his (or her) genius.
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 5:39 AM
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MrVerylongusername
233 posts
Apr 10, 2009
5:38 AM
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Sheeesh! Is it over?
Anyway, here's my humble 2p's worth
There is a common misconception that TB gives you a better tone. I think it has arisen because a lot of players misunderstand the lip-purse embouchure and use it incorrectly. Tongue block is less ambiguous.
If you use a 'kiss-the harp" type mouth shape, then your tone will be weak and airy - it's not airtight and you're all but blocking the primary source of good tone - your mouth cavity. A full on, tight, kiss-style pucker isn't a proper lip-purse embouchure. Jon Gindick has a really good video on tone and he explains how to do it properly and if you watch Chris or Adam play, they're not puckering in that way either.
I agree completely that being proficient in different embouchures is important. Everyone should strive to be able to switch effortlessly between them.
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Preston
268 posts
Apr 10, 2009
5:49 AM
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I'm trying to look at it from a scientific perspective. Obviously some of the greatest chicago style players with monster tone were tongue blockers, that's a given. However, if the key to good tone is in the resonance chamber of the hole in your head, shouldn't you be able (theoretically) to achieve greater tone with your tongue out of the way?
Don't get me wrong, I don't hear a difference in my tone when I play one or the other either, I'm just trying to think outside of the box for a minute.
When I lip block I have my jaw dropped and my tongue laying flat on the bottom of my mouth. This should yield the biggest hole in your head you can get. When you raise your tongue up to TB, aren't you "filling in" some of the space of that resonance chamber?
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Buzadero
61 posts
Apr 10, 2009
7:43 AM
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Tee hee hee. You girls crack me up with the bickering. Hostility on an anonymous forum? Puhlease.
My $.02 in this matter came from a dude that I consider somewaht of an authority. William Clarke. While not much of a musician, I love the harmonica. And, over the years I have guiltlessly exploited my novelty profession to meet and in some cases have some superficial acquaintanceships with some fine harp dudes.
Back when I both lived in Southern California as well as was a greenhorn sponge for any tidbit of enlightenment that might somehow magically transform my hacking away at the harp into something more credible, I had the great fortune to spend a little time around The Mighty Bill Clarke. His response to my application of toungue-block vs lipping was about as simple as I've ever heard. He said that you have technique and you have your sound (tone). Both working together is what you're trying to achieve. But, you have to work on both as separate parts of the whole. He said I needed to find my sound by any means I could.....then, work on keeping that sound while working the mechanics of the mouth, toungue and lips. When pressed,, he got a bit miffed and said it didn't matter if I ever learned to tongue block as long as I always remembered to chase my sound. And, that the tongue would find it's way to the block as I became more in tune with the harp.
DISCLAIMER: One must keep in mind that we (and a several others in the same room) were half in the bag from cheap whiskey at about 3am. That kind of heavy philosofised advice gets heard a bit differently when both parties are drunk.
Now you ladies can get back to the sparring.
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~Buzadero
Underwater Janitor, Patriot
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ZackPomerleau
31 posts
Apr 10, 2009
8:45 AM
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Well, Chris is correct in all aspects. Tone is transferable to all methods of playing, and I can attest to that. Sure, I may not be a Harmonica God but that doesn't matter to me, I practice and I play a lot and I try my best to be a good player, and I find it completely outrageous that people are willing to question something that has ALREADY been proven. Listen to Howard Levy, Jason Ricci, even Adam Gussow, these guys don't do full time tongue blocking and I GUARANTEE they have a fatter tone than most players in the world because they straight up honestly worked for it and they didn't take any short-cuts. And I'm not talking about 'paying dues.' That's not even the question here.
Seems to me people like to 'purposely' get into arguments with Chris, and even I got in a few, but I think the general consensus is that he is an amazing player. Respect him for that if nothing else, because otherwise you look very base compared to others. You guys on this forum are getting a candid look at harmonica playing. So don't take it for granted because I sure don't, and I believe in ten years the teachings of others will benefit me even though I'd prefer to learn by myself, I know teachers and the words of great players whether they be from Brad Harrison, Jason Ricci, or Howard Levy, are amazing things to know.
So, I guess finally I must say that I find this totally outrageous that we can have so many fights about the most idiotic things. I don't care if any of you guys expeditiously learned how to play the harmonica like a GOD, because that doesn't matter. I do believe some people here were at fault that are claiming they were not but I do not care. I am just frustrated with the fact everyone here can be so 'blah-blah-blah' about things. It seems like some people though are defending themselves and accusing others of 'blasphemy' of sorts when in fact they said viable things and the words were just misread. HELLO, this is the internet, remember, we have no emotions on the internet because words are JUST words, made up by some people. Etymology proves that, and semantics along the way help, too. So, whatever. Also, why don't we at least TRY not to set off another war on this forum?
Sincerely,
Zack.
Last Edited by on Apr 10, 2009 8:46 AM
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isaacullah
171 posts
Apr 10, 2009
1:49 PM
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Hey Preston, that IS and interesting idea. I wonder, though, if it is the overall SIZE of the resonant chamber that makes a differnece (ie. the bigger the better), or if it is just getting to the RIGHT size for whichever note you are playing. I notice that I get great tone on holes 3-5 with a certain mouth position (jaw dropped just in a certain way), but when I go to holes 2 or 1 with the same jaw configuration, the notes either don't play, or come out slightly bent and muffled. I have to pinch it down and move my jaw back a bit to get similar tone on those holes.
So, I wonder if when your TBing and your tongue is up, if you have to make more space in the back of your mouth/top of your throat to get the same resonant space that you can get LPing in the front and middle of you mouth?
I'm mainly a LPer, except for octaves and sometimes toungeslaps. I even "vamp" with a LP, via Adam's technique of rasing the top lip and opening the umberture a bit to get the side holes. I can make it sound more like a TB chord vamp by only opening the left side of my mouth.
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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bluzlvr
158 posts
Apr 10, 2009
2:08 PM
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I'm a "natural" tongue blocker and its easier for me to bend notes and such while tbing, but I can also lip purse.
I sat down with a harp the other day to see if there was any difference in the tone on a 2 hole draw between tb'ing and lp'ing using all the skill I possess to get a bitchin' tone. To my ears there was not one iota of difference.
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JTThirty
32 posts
Apr 10, 2009
3:02 PM
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So What's Better About Tongue Blocking? THAT was the original question. Hey and I feel left out because I came up "u-blocking". It wasn't even a term when I discovered that I could hit a single note by curling my tongue on the harp when I couldn't do it any other way. I figured that I was really an odd duck because I knew NO one that did this. Whenever I ran across others, they look at me rather strangely when I explained my technique. One day I ordered Norton Buffalo's VCR instructionals and the first thing he said was--I get my single notes my curling my tongue. Wow! A pro was doing it my way and I felt vindicated and went about the business of developing what I felt like was a good tone. Later, when the Harp-L discussion group got wound up, I discovered there were a few on the list that did the same thing and I do believe the coined "u-block" embousure came from members there.
I played nothing but blues and felt that I was approximating what others got from TBing fairly well, until a more advanced player told me that if I wanted to get a better sound that was closer to the Chicago blues harp that I was trying to emulate that I HAD to learn to TB. I didn't want to waste my practice time with learning a entirely different method. BUT, I finally did and you know what--I had it all wrong and once I began TBing, it became quite clear. The percussive slaps and tone of TBing brought my blues playing to life. He also implored me to learn what sounds I could get by learning to LP also. Still dragging my feet there, but I'm getting a bit better at that, too and there are bent wavers and such that a LPuckered hole brings out easier than the other methods. My articulation just isn't there, yet, with LPing.
So, yeah, learn both methods to see what you're missing out on and hey, throw a little "u-blocked" stuff in there, too. Anyway--
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Miles Dewar
305 posts
Apr 10, 2009
7:17 PM
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Maybe we could set up some "Clinical Trials" to "properly" solve this issue. LOL..... anyone know someone that is thinking about plying? J/K
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---Go Bears!!! (Jay Cutler in Chicago baby!) Where's the Pack at now?---
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Buddha
255 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:28 AM
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Miles, there is nothing to set up. I have worked with countless beginners and they either came to me able to play single notes or I taught them from the very beginning how to use both methods. Neither way is harder than the other. It's all in the teacher at zero point.
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Miles Dewar
307 posts
Apr 11, 2009
4:22 PM
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LOL, I know Buddah. That's what I'm saying. (Goofy and Regular Skateboard Stance).
It's an "Age-Old" Debate NOT limited to harp playing.
I've argued this very same topic hundreds of times with my fellow skaters.
People "Falsely" think that starting riding "Goofy" stance is harder than starting riding "Regular" stance.
I think it's all in the name (Goofy/ Tongue block)
*If i said, you want some "Snot Burgers"? You'd probably be hesitant to take it. Unless I told you Snot Burgers were made from Porterhouse steak.
- It's all the same. If I learned "Regular" stance then "Regular" is my regular.
- If I learned "Goofy" stance then "Goofy" is my regular.
I won't save my breath, I know I'll be arguing this the next time I go to the skatepark. It'll just give me more practice.
mmmmmmmmmmm snot burgers
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---Go Bears!!! (Jay Cutler in Chicago baby!) Where's the Pack at now?---
Last Edited by on Apr 11, 2009 4:27 PM
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Buddha
256 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:17 PM
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don't knock snot burgers dude, they are the secret to playing really fast. Just smear some of it on the cover plates.
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Miles Dewar
311 posts
Apr 11, 2009
5:29 PM
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LOL, Oh, believe me, I Get plenty of snot burgers than my diet allows, Most of the time they just wait on my hand a little. Lurking. Waiting to be deposited into my stomach. LOL...eeeeew
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---Go Bears!!! (Jay Cutler in Chicago baby!) Where's the Pack at now?---
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Bluzdude46
35 posts
Apr 13, 2009
4:11 AM
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I think this brings up something very interesting. Guys who start TB then learn to do things LP Now have good tone both ways. I began with No teacher whatsoever, just put a harp in my mouth hitch hiking around the country and learned what it could do. I never, until years later even considered TB except, of course for splits and slaps. I've been trying to adapt TB more and more, once I figured out what it was, and lo and behold my tone got much better. Now that being said I still have difficulty bending notes with my tongue on the harp. I know it is a physical thing breaking muscle memory but I really am struggling.
All in All, I feel it is much easier as a beginner to learn TB and that will give you better tone, then doing it the other way around.
Yanno someday I may even learn how to play one of these things !!
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 4:15 AM
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GGiles
30 posts
Apr 13, 2009
5:19 AM
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So it seems to be that the the rule here is if you want good tone using TB or lip ... learn to do the technique properly.
Or even more basic ... the more time you spend in the wood shed the better you will sound.
TONE = HARD WORK
Short cuts ... don't cut it.
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Buddha
257 posts
Apr 13, 2009
6:11 AM
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having good tone is actually very easy. You just have to know what it is and be able to listen.
Oldwailer, Zhin and Issaculla can tell you that I showed them how to improve their tone within seconds.
The first thing I teach new students is the importance of tone. How you get single notes is insignificant.
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2009 6:12 AM
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shaneboylan
97 posts
Apr 16, 2009
12:42 AM
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I advocate spending more time at the beginning learning the embouchere that you're least comfortable doing. For me - it was TB.
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mr_so&so
79 posts
Apr 16, 2009
10:12 AM
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After mostly LPing for the last few years, I've started to TB more. I've found it isn't too hard to get all the TB bends, at least I'm at a point where I'm sure that if I put in as much effort as I did LPing, I will be just as proficient TBing.
I've noticed a few other things during this experiment.
1) When I LP, my lips stay drier, and this can be a problem when trying to move around the harp. When I TB, I get better lubrication (but also more spit-clogging of the reeds). Your mileage may vary.
2) When I TB, I find that I throw more chords, octaves, etc. into my playing. It just seems more natural to do so.
3) It's useful to have the comparison between LP bends and TB bends when learning the TB ones. I'm also learning the TB ones faster.
4) LP seems more natural on the low end of the harp (1 and 2 holes), but maybe I'm just not good enough yet.
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chromaticblues
14 posts
Apr 23, 2009
5:23 AM
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Whole shit! I can't believe this has become such a big deal! The only reason I even look at this is because Adam started it and I really got into his music pretty heavy a few years back. And it seems like he is getting some overdue recognition the last few years! Then I found that some of the stuff is interesting. I have been playing for over 22 years and most of it professionally, but I would never say I have better tone lip pursing then anyone can tongue blocking! WOW!!
I am not going to say your wrong, but basically you just told everyone else they are!
I have only my personal experience on the matter. When people ask me what the difference is. I play a riff using each method. Then I ask them what they think. Every time they say the tongue blocking style sounded deeper. Now keep in mind here I really don't give a shit one way or the other! I use both all the time because they sound different and the effects that go along tongue blocking are cool! Being a good teacher I believe one should not be opinionated! And I'm not saying your not a good teacher!! I'm just surprised you chose that subject and took that stand! People have been pissing back and forth for years over that and I have never understood why!
All TONE is is make the harp sound good! That's what most people will tell you. Well what the fuck is that! Here's the deal!!!! If you have to ask that question it doesn't matter who answers it. You just don't know yet!
This is what I tell people that really do what to know(and I feel like I'm not wasting my time).
Think of the difference between a guitar and a mandolin. The guitar has big sound and mandolin doesn't. The chamber in the guitar is bigger than the mandolin. So if you want to have a big sound playing the harp you have to open your mouth, throat and lungs as much as you can with out playing tense. I tel people think of drawing every note from the bottom of you lungs and opening everything else up to let it get through! That seems to help a lot of people!
Now as far as LP and TB go. you have to change your the shape of your mouth so the tone does change. This is the word of the lord!
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