ok so i wanna save up an get a mic an amp. in the future i plan on gettin a harp gear HG2 but in the mean time i need some thing cheaper. im thinking the valve jr cause thats the cheapest one an they seem to be popular an easy to mod. should i settle for that or save a little more an get the Gretsch G5222 that adam recomends? any one ever play one of these or know of a clip of some one playin it?
as for a mic i got the ones i built but i still want some nice ones. i plan on getting a modded sm57 like jason uses but im in no rush cause my friend has an sm57 i can use when ever i want. so i was thinking shure 520dx. but people say its a little brighter then the vintage ones an from the clips i hear it does sound brighter. i head a clip of the cheaper version of the 520dx. the mic thats grey an has the hand grip. cant remember the name but i didnt like the sound at all compared to the 520dx. would any one recomend the 520dx? i just dont wanna end up with a mic i dont like. that rhymed.
the 520d's made in recent years have controlled magnetic elements i thinkl, but they are just cheaply made and don't sound like the "good ol' days" like pre-2000. it's likely you can find a mic on ebay for the same or even less $$ that will sound as good if not better. i'd look for a mic with a shure 99a86 or 99b86 element, or a crystal element mc-127 or 151 (i think). i drool on ebay pretty often although i haven't bought much in recent years since i'm well stocked. in fact one mic that comes to mind there is the e-v m43u, which is a military issue mic that was built in the late 70's/early 80's and is a hot lil sucker if you can do a bit of work to it. specifically, you'd need to take an xlr (3 prong type p.a. cable) cable, take one end off, and replace with a 1'4" guitar type jack, and also add a low to high impedance transformer. a bit unwieldy but a really hot mic. probably all told for less than a new 520d. there are other choices and some of the sellers have youtube clips of the actual mic for sale so you can hear how it sounds. the older elements, if still in good shape, are better sounding than most of what's made these days. and i think for maybe under a hunnerd bucks you can have something that beats the pants off a "modern" green bullet!
it depends on what sort of sound you want also. a cm has a lot more bottom and can be made to really muddy up the tone. a crystal is much cleaner and not so much low end but can be made to sound really great.
i've played through a valve jr modded for harp and it's a dang good sounding little amp, maybe the best production value out there in a new small tube amp. the one i played through had a 2x8 cabinet it was mated to. other speakers may work better, i don't know. there are other manufacturers making clones now, among them black heart and even hohner i think. for anything but a small gig you'd need to mic the amp to the house p.a. or not be heard more than 10 feet away. not a huge issue but worth mentioning. and there again, you may find something on ebay or elsewhere that is vintage and sounds even better, but the value of most of the old cheapies like silvertone, premier, gibson, etc, has jumped quite a bit in recent years.
i own a silvertone 1482 which i nearly stole about 7 years ago. last year we got one for my wife to play guitar through and paid over double what i had spent on mine. it's a great amp, 2 6v6, 3 12ax tubes, tremolo and a single 12" speaker. great for small gigs. for the big venues and loud jam nights i got a '59 bassman replica last year, and i can't say enough about the quality of materials and build that steve clark of sligo amps put into it. he swapped some speakers around and gave me a great harp amp for a very good price, and it's a beaut.
i have heard nothing but good about brian purdy's amps also. i hope to get one eventually but i'm amped out currently.
i'll be interested to see you post on what you have bought!!
this guy claims they are brand new sealed in box vintage mics. says he came across a whole pallet of them. sounds like bullshit to me. whats you opinion?
I'm not an expert and this is just my opinion, but if you want vintage sound go with vintage equiptment. My suggestion for a rig would be...... Kalamazoo Model-1 tube amp Any mic with a Hi-Z Shure controlled magnetic element. Danelectro Dan Echo echo pedal. All can be found on ebay and if your patient should only cost ya $350 or less for the whole set up. These 3 items working properly will give you a sound that will make your hair stand up!
Like I said, I'm not an expert and it's only my opinion.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 4:17 AM
I purchased a brand-new Epiphone Valve Junior a couple of weeks ago. I was coaching at Jon Gindick's jam camp in Clarksdale and a guy who owned a local music store brought it down--he actually left it on stage for folks to try. It sounded great with my Shure mic, and it was loud as hell. We A/B'd it with a HarpGear 2. It held its own. And the two amps in combination were fantastic.
I'm now recommending the amp on my "AMPS for sale" page. Of course, it's always a good idea to play through an amp before you buy it.
jon, that's the mic i used to have. it IS a HOT mic if run with an impedance adapter, available for about $15 at any music store. it will take a modded xlr cable also. not a big deal if you can solder a few wires.
i actually have one that i'm waiting to send to greg heumann for a mod or 2. i'm going to get a different connector put on and possibly a volume pot also.
ray mentioned the kalamazoo amp. i played one of these- not even modded- and it was a nice little rig also, i imagine that with a couple of mods it would be a great amp also for small venues or miced off.
there are a couple of non-bullet mics on ebay also that if i was shopping for another i'd take a chance on. one is a sonotone cm-10, the other is a mini dynamic mic. at $50 and $54.99 they are plug and play, no mods needed, a better deal no hassle. both accept a 1/4" cable, no messing with making a cable or using an impedance adapter.
Hey Adam, try swapping the speaker for the EVJ if you're still using the stock one. The difference is astounding when you pick a good substitute. In fact, that may be an understatement. It can sound like a completely better amp! ;) Even a low to mid priced speaker would suffice.
jonsparrow, take Adam's advice. He's got an EXPERT ear for amplified harp tone. Whatever he recommends is worth your money.
Of course, if you can it's always better to be able to give the amp/mic a test before buying it.
The Epiphone Valve Junior is a great recommendation. I would own one if I already didn't have that Epiphone Valve Special I got for a good deal. (I actually removed all the additional features from my EVS to make it behave more like an EVJ)
There are several reasons why the EVJ is an IDEAL harp amp. First you get only 1 volume knob which is crucial for achieving the best kind of tone you can get without too much complications. The lack of any additional feature/circuit basically makes this amp a pure sounding tube tone beast. It uses a solid-state rectifier but I can assure you it's not something you're going to notice. lol (it also keeps the maintenance level down when you use a ss rec)
The amp also does not come with a negative feedback loop circuit which means that you're going to get a purer and more textured gritty blues tone that sound similar to the Fender Tweed amps that didn't have them either.
It also uses less tubes which is a big plus. More tubes = more gain = more feedback... So less tubes is GOOD.
If you decide to get one be sure to get the combo version and NOT the head. The combo is the one that comes with an 8" speaker (another plus point for harp amp tone). The head version is just... well, the amp without a speaker.
Good luck!
---------- My Videos
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 6:15 AM
Like Zhin said, change out the speaker and it improves immediately. I was having trouble with cone cry. I can't remember which note is was but every time I played it on any harp there was this horrible noise. I talked to Musicians Friend, Epiphone and even Eminence. Eminence said it was inherent to paper cone speakers and stated they just built it to Epiphone's specs and it wasn't their fault.
I went to a local electronics store and the guy had a generic 8" speaker laying around and that was huge improvement in tone.
I wish it did have a tone knob.
I also have a Kalamazoo Model 2 that I prefer over the Valve Jr and you could probably find one for a similar price.
I can vouch for the G5222. I got mine from ebay for £100. It sounded good from the off and I've slowly gotten into modding it. I bought myself a solder iron, got some info off the web and changed the voicing to more of a 5f1. I've also swapped out the tubes and intend on putting a weber sig8 alnico in it (the original speaker is a 6 inch) I play it with a sonotone cm10 ceramic mic. They often turn up on ebay but if you cant wait then google harpmicshop. He has them for $60. It is a great sounding mic, giving that ceramic element sound. (sounds more crystal than controlled magnetic) Not quite as much low end as a cm or cr but it does dirty up nice when tight cupped and it is easier to cup than a gb. As my 1st harp rig, I love it (actually it's my second rig, my 1st compromised of a £20 solid state amp and a £3 karaoke mic)
Of the 5 mics I've played through my Epiphone Valve Junior, my JT30 with a Green Bullet element is by far the best combination. I got mine on ebay for about $125.
The other mics were my Electrovoice RE10, Shaker Retro Rocket, Shure SM57 and a Green Bullet 520DX that I've since parted with.
I would probably search for a JT30 type mic, maybe even the new one Astatic has out or the Hohner Bluesblaster if you can't find the real deal.
My advice is that if you know you like harmonica and are going to play, go ahead and get "the goods." If you keep trying to find cheap substitutes you're not going to find something you're happy with. I bought the Retro Rocket thinking that would be a cheaper way to get the sound I was looking for but in the end I had to get the JT30 anyway.
Don't buy a Bluesblaster or an Astatic by Hohner Roadhouse mic. They have the crappiest weak, thin, tinny Japanese made (Kobitone) crystal element that is a pale imitation of a genuine Astatic MC151 element.
A Shure 520DX is not as good as a vintage 520, but it's way better than the current bluesblaster.
I think the 520 imitation you were talking about is made by Superlux. I think there's a Youtube vid by harpsucker where he plays one. From what I recall, it's not as good as a 520 but better than the bluesblaster.
If you know what you're looking for you should be able to get something half decent from ebay. Try to avoid anything labelled "Harp Mic" it's just a way to push the bidding up. Instead try searches like "vintage mic" "old mic" "Hi-Z mic" etc.. eBay has really inflated the prices of good harp friendly mics, but there are still bargains to be found. I swear by a Shure 545, if you aren't bothered about the pistol version, there are a lot of second hand ones floating around. They tended to get used in places like church PA installations - and get sold off in batches when the churches upgrade.
Last Edited by on Apr 12, 2009 5:59 PM
Jon, now it's time for you to pick up a 12AY7 tube which is considered a tube that matches well with microphones in general.
Or maybe a 12AT7.
I find 12AU7 too low in gain and 12AX7 is just way too much for a mic.
Microphones push frequencies a lot harder than a guitar can. Which means the signal is a lot hotter and that's one of the other reasons why mics are more prone to feedback.
Less gain in the preamp tubes is always better.
And leave that big output tube alone for now. Those are not meant to be swapped out as casually as preamp tubes.
I've got a question about mics. I was playing on a friend's mic and was getting a lot of contact noise between the mic and the harp. I guess you're supposed to use some kind of rubber cushion/baffle over the mic? What do you recommend?
or the harp can be in contact but nor move around on the mic, they can be held together. in fact i generally keep mic and harp in contact but not moving independent of each other.
About an Epiphone Valve Jr. It's really a good amp! I've got a third version with Eminence speaker and it rocks. I've get it really cheap. I think that it's the best for the money. But you guys say, that the speaker can be improved? I'm curious what type of speaker should I be looking for. And about the tubes. I've got stock 12AX7 Sovtek and with it I can crank tha amp for 20-30%, but nothing more without killing everybody around with feedback. If I would change the preamp tube I could get more and better sound from it without feedback? What specific tubes do you reccomend? But afterall, it's a great beast even stock. I had a gig at the beggining of April and even the club owner was very happy with the tone. I had to mic it up a bit, but after that everything was hearable.
Now anout the mic. I've bought a cool ceramic Astatic 10-C from Ron Sunshine. That guy has always cool stuff, all tested and working. I'm in love with my toy, great round tone. Sound of a ceramic mic is very similar to a crystal one, but much more durable (one bump with a crystal and it's gone)! To my mind, if buying a mic it's better to get something good at the beggining, beacause well treated mic will serve you life time. That's why I bought my Astatic, knowing that I'll play for a while :). But if you're interested in a good sounding and cheap mic, visit: www.harmonijkowy.pl A guy in Poland makes a custom, plastic shelled mics called Blackedge Jr. I was given one for tests and I must say the output is killer (i have no interest in it because I had to return the mic after the tests)! Tone is chicago-like, distorted and agressive, because of presence of higher freguencies. Not as fat as my Astatic, but also nice sounding. You can hear both mics on my Epiphone on my YiuTube:
I have owned and modded in varying degrees three Valve jr. combos and 2 valve Jr. heads. I liked the combo better. The cabinet seems to have the right acoustics for good sound. Maciekdraheim, you might try an 12AT7 for your feed back problem. A 12AT7 will give you %60 of the gain in an 12AX7, a 12AY7 will give yo %45, and a 12AU7 %19.
It is up to you , your amp, and your mic as to which works best. Having a volume control on you mic is a very desireable thing ,in my opinion. It allows you to crank the amp for full overdrive,yet keep the volume,(and feedback) managable. The Valve Jr. as well as many other small class A tube amps, will max out the clean headroom at around 5, and from 5 up, overdrive begins and accelerates depending on the amps power. I put a speaker from a Gibson GA-5 (PTP brother of the Valve Jr.) in one of my VJrs. It is called a Goldtone but is made and sold by Weber as a Sig 8. I believe that a smooth cone speaker is best for harp. It breaks up early and smoothly. I have also found thriugh trial and error that the ceramic speaker has more bottom end than the AlNico. AlNico is great for guitar, but to my ear, the ceramic rules for harp. I have and use 12 different mics, my favarite is a ceramic dynamic turner. I have a variety of different shells and homes for mainly Shure CM elements, and a few shure dynamic elements with impedence transformers to bring up the impedence and make the mic hotter. every mic has its own voice. The customized Turner and a Rebuilt RCA bullet are my 2 favorites. But then again, I love all of my "Children"
Thanks for your response :). I think I'll try a tube replacement in future. I checked a speaker via Interner. It's for about 24$, but I think it would be difficult getting one in Poland. But for now, the stock one plays really well for me :). About a volume control. My mic doesn't have it and what's more, it has an XLR connector so it's hard to buy. I saw good v. controls on www.blowsmeaway.com but they're rather expensive. But thank you very much :).
This is how it was explained to me. Corrections welcome!
The classic driven tone comes from Power Tube Saturation - cranking the output volume - and not the preamp stage. Swapping to lower gain preamp means that the preamp stage is doing less, so that the power stage can be driven further before the whole system hits feedback.
High impedance mics have a high enough voltage output that reducing the preamp stage matters less.
It only really works if you turn the volume to max. If you swap the preamp tubes and don't crank the power tubes you'll be disappointed.
ill probobly replace em later on. i wanna get used to it stock first so i can notice the differnce. plus i just ordered mister satans aprentice (sp?)an im goin to jasons show on sunday so im gonna be broke for awhile. any way heres a video of me testin out the amp. i posted it before but it got deleted with the crash...
Maciekdraheim, You can also consider using an Ernie Ball Volume pedal or one like it. Easier to find at a good price. I have one that I use on the few mics I own that have not had volume control added yet.
I agree that the stock speaker in the VJr is pretty good for harp. All the complaints against it comes from guitarists.
Nice video Jonsparrow. A 12AT7 will only set you back around $10, forgo the popcorn at your concert, and get a tube. You should have a spare for each tube anyway. MrVerylongusername, A good explaination in laymans terms!
Alright fellas, I need a little help here. I've been reading this post a couple of times now and it sounds like I should go for this deal, but I wanna get some more thoughts and opinions.
I have found a guy selling a used Ep valve JR for $100.00.
I am NOT a gear head, and most of the crap you guys said in this thread flew way the hell over my head.
Heres the amp that I am using now:
Dean Michael Schenker 15Watt 8" practice guitar amp. (It was a closeout display model and fit the budget nicely. I'm also playing through a SuperluxD112 Bullet Microphone by the way)
I can't turn my Dean up past 3 or 4 on the volume knob, or it starts back feeding. When I try to jam with my neighbor and his band, the feedback seems worse, maybe becuase I'm around all their mics and amps. The Dean does have a treble, mid, and bass knob, a presence knob, and overdrive. Plus it is 15Watts opposed to the EPjr. 5 watts.
I realize maybe none of you guys have ever played through a Dean like this one, but what do ya think?
What is the pros/cons of the 15watt solid state as opposed to the 5watt tube?
Maybe it is the cheap mic causing my feedback problems.
Solid state is generally considered to be inferior to valve, but as we know there are people who swear by certain solid state amps.
Valve (tube amps) are considered more musical because of how they distort the sound. In a solid state amp (at least in the old pre-digital modelling days) the distortion is hard. If you think of sound as a sine wave (wavy line) , basically a solid state amp just cut the tops of the peaks and troughs. This can give a very harsh, almost metallic sound, with far more harmonics in the signal especially at the top end.
Valves on the other hand work more like a compressor does, the distortion is softer and the harmonics generated are related to the fundemental tone and therefore more musical.
Comparing wattage is not a good way to judge the loudness of an amp. It is merely an indication of how efficient the amp is in converting a tiny voltage into moving air. In my experience a 5W valve amp could be pretty close in volume to a 15W solid state one.
Your feedback issues are not necessarily amp related and it's not because the Superlux is a cheaper mic than a Green Bullet. Most people struggle to tame feedback, especially once you are jamming with other musicians. with other people around, all of a sudden you need the amp to be louder to hear yourself. Unfortunately High impedance microphones like the JT30, Green Bullet, Superlux etc... are more prone to feedback. Their high output is great for getting a distorted tone without adding lots of preamp gain, but because of their omnidirectional nature and sensitivity (notably in the midrange) they easily "hear themselves" creating a feedback loop. Low impedance mics (like the Fireball and the Bushman/Nady Torpedo) are much less prone to feedback, but it's harder to dial in "that sound".
There are lots of solutions to the feedback problem. In my time I've used a Behringer Shark (an inline feedback destroyer) a guitar EQ pedal and now a Rocktron Hush pedal. There's also the Kinder Antifeedback which the pros swear by, but that's a bit pricey for me - especially with transatlantic shipping. Usually just playing with the EQ - especially top and midrange - and cutting back on long delays and reverbs can make a big difference.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2009 6:37 AM
MVLUN, Thank you. That was a very good explanation, and in terms I can understand. I would like to think I have pretty good acoustic tone (always room for improvement, I know I'm not the greatest here), but I have never really been happy with the way I sound on my current rig. I think I will dive in and just buy the damn thing and see what happens.
Thanks Jaybird. I've looked for this pedal and but i found it even more expensive than that custom volume control. I do not play professional or gig regulary (the last gig was a student song contest-festival), so there is not a hot need of getting a volume control.
I think it would be great if Adam made a video with his new Epi :). I'm so curious about how would it sound when a REAL PRO uses it! And more, I like to know, that I made a right choice :).
Has anyone tried the behringer ac108 vintager. I swear by it as a amp for harmonica, uke ,guitar, cd player, most things you can put into an amp. It has a 12ax7 preamp tube wih the rest of the electronics solid state. I kept the 12ax7 because I use a low/middle-z mic( around 600-700 ohm) and it keeps the output to the speaker high.
well i just tried the valve jr with the volume way up (had to stand in the other room) but it sounded sooooo nice. i would recomend this amp to any one for sure. i would suggest trying to find a used one though cause prices keep going up.
I know it's a bit late now but a fender champion 600 is a great little amp and (I've been told) a direct copy of the Gretsch amp. I use this at jams now and it sounds great. Has to to mic'd up obviously. Like the EVJ it only has one volume knob and could do with a tube change to stop feedback. I've also raved on the forum before about old valve amps that were used as extension speakers for old record players. These sound absolutely fabulous, beautiful bottom end and loud as anything. I use this art home and occasionaly at the jams but I don't want to damage it...I would cry.Here's one currently for sale on eaby with the record player. They come up on their own from time to time at approx £20-30 and you will need to change the input from RCA to 1/4" jack which takes all of 5 mins and basic soldering.
I always used to use a 520dx but after reading a comment Buddha made about mics I have started to use an old Shure PE585 Hi-z mic I picked up on ebay for about £20. It is much easier to get a good seal and although a little bit cleaner than a 520dx, it still distorts like crazy when you want it to by altering the cup. I also use an old Shure 515 Hi-z mic as back up and this gives a very similar tone but is straight ended mic like a SM57, again got this cheap on ebay for about £15. All a bit late for jonsparrow but good to hear what everyone is using.
